Does anyone still get paid in 30 days all the time?
- Thread starter Lensmith
- Start date
- Status
Now, here’s another greedy nonsense that has been screwing up everybody, even the honest ones.
I was very happy to add a $6 handling charge to every tape, and so were my clients. That amounted to a few hundreds extra bucks each month in my pockets. But on the contrary of what some of us think, clients are not stupid. Because of “you know who you are†idiocy, my client now ships me a case of tapes every few weeks, so now I’m taking care of his tapes for nothing.
Thanks for nothing guys.
No retailer on earth makes 200% profit on any item, but in our business some of us thinks that we can get away with it. Actually I know of a few idiots that were charging as much as $50 for a $10 tape. So what has been happening?
I was very happy to add a $6 handling charge to every tape, and so were my clients. That amounted to a few hundreds extra bucks each month in my pockets. But on the contrary of what some of us think, clients are not stupid. Because of “you know who you are†idiocy, my client now ships me a case of tapes every few weeks, so now I’m taking care of his tapes for nothing.
Thanks for nothing guys.
Lensmith
Member
I hope you consider me an exception ;o)
Several freelancers and production houses here charge US$40 and US$50 per 30 minute tape. I charge clients US$35 per Sony/Fuji 30 minute Beta tape for a couple of reasons.
I have to pay rather high import taxes to Nica customs on all new boxes of tape brought into this country. To put it nicely...they rape me. Thus I have to pass along the cost. It's not just the money. Every time I bring in new tape I spend at least half a day dealing with the customs officials. Filling out forms, playing nice with a half dozen different officials and standing in long, snail pace lines, (yes plural) for several hours. My time has some value!
The other reason is the higher price encourages clients to supply their own tape stock when they come here to work with me. Of course they can buy it and bring it cheaper, a practice I encourage.
I used to accept promises of being sent new tape to replace the tape I shot for them, but that turned into an empty promise too often. Calling to remind them to send tape, after receiving payment was an additional hassle I've decided to avoid.
If for some reason they need a break in price, I offer to send them material on one-pass tape, not new, at a lower rate...but never free.
I agree it's a crime to overcharge people but sometimes there are reasons to charge more! Honest!
Before I forget, I too bend over backwards dealing with my bread and butter accounting department folks. Cameragods practice of making sure they feel appreciated and respected is right on. It's amazing how a little card, note, hat, t-shirt, or in one case, a half dozen boxes of diet pills, smooths the way. Better personal service is the result when you're trying to find out what happened to a lost invoice or late payment. I don't do those favors as a bribe. I can honestly say we've become friends even though we have never seen each others faces.
cameragod
Well-known member
I do get the clients who want their 5 hours worth but Wellington is New Zealand’s capital so I get lots of out of town clients needing a quick IV with one politician and as I have all the passes and parking clearance that usually only takes me an hour. I still have to be careful and make certain that everyone knows I have another job to get to at such and such a time but it is amazing how often things just seem to work out and how much clients will move things around to get the cameraman they want.
Baltimore Shooter
Well-known member
Yes, HDTV, clients DO agree with question 6 on my production agreement. Knocking on wood here, I've never had a client disagree with anything the agreement. I honestly don't know if all of them have read over every part of it or not, I do know some of them have because they called back to ask a question or 2, but no one has ever refused to sign it. And these are clients I've had for several years. They sign the agreement for the first shoot of every year, as each one expires on 12/31.
Question 6 (ooh, sounds like a movie title)is an insurance liability issue. If the producer or one of their people trip and knock over the camera, they'll pay to have it repaired or replaced. Sure I have liability and equipment insurance myself, but why should I make a claim and/or risk being sued if they break their leg or something. What if we're at someone's house interviewing them and their Rottweiler gets loose, jumps on top of me and I drop and bust the camera? Should I be responsible for the thousands in damage?
I do like Cameragod's ideas about getting in with the invoice gate keeper too. Something I'll have to start doing.
BTW, Joecam147, about your comment "We're not doctors or plumbers so we don't get paid after the gig and never will (unfortunately)". With new clients, I do. I have been since I started with the agreement and I got paid after a shoot just last week. Many of these 1st time clients have become repeat clients as they know I'm fair and give them my all.
As for Nino's "No retailer on earth makes 200% profit on any item". I guess you've never bought Nikes or Tommy Hilfiger or Calvin Klines. These clothes are made in India for about $2 and, in the case w/ Nikes sold for about $175 a pair. Now I'm no mathematician, but that's waaay more than 200%. I'm sure homebuilders are making a sh..load of profit on the cardboard box of a house their building these days. Florists get 300% profit margin. I know because I dated a girl who's a florist.
Actually, I'm on the low end of tape charges, as LensSmith said, some people, not just in Nicaragua, but in DC, Phila, and NYC are charging $40-$50, so I'd say $30 is a fair rate. Echoing his statements about clients providing tapes instead of myself. I've also been promised they'd send tapes back "as soon as I get back", only to never receive the tapes or months later if I'm lucky.
Warren
Question 6 (ooh, sounds like a movie title)is an insurance liability issue. If the producer or one of their people trip and knock over the camera, they'll pay to have it repaired or replaced. Sure I have liability and equipment insurance myself, but why should I make a claim and/or risk being sued if they break their leg or something. What if we're at someone's house interviewing them and their Rottweiler gets loose, jumps on top of me and I drop and bust the camera? Should I be responsible for the thousands in damage?
I do like Cameragod's ideas about getting in with the invoice gate keeper too. Something I'll have to start doing.
BTW, Joecam147, about your comment "We're not doctors or plumbers so we don't get paid after the gig and never will (unfortunately)". With new clients, I do. I have been since I started with the agreement and I got paid after a shoot just last week. Many of these 1st time clients have become repeat clients as they know I'm fair and give them my all.
As for Nino's "No retailer on earth makes 200% profit on any item". I guess you've never bought Nikes or Tommy Hilfiger or Calvin Klines. These clothes are made in India for about $2 and, in the case w/ Nikes sold for about $175 a pair. Now I'm no mathematician, but that's waaay more than 200%. I'm sure homebuilders are making a sh..load of profit on the cardboard box of a house their building these days. Florists get 300% profit margin. I know because I dated a girl who's a florist.
Actually, I'm on the low end of tape charges, as LensSmith said, some people, not just in Nicaragua, but in DC, Phila, and NYC are charging $40-$50, so I'd say $30 is a fair rate. Echoing his statements about clients providing tapes instead of myself. I've also been promised they'd send tapes back "as soon as I get back", only to never receive the tapes or months later if I'm lucky.
Warren
dhart
Well-known member
Another side of the story. Often it can take 30 days for all the "approvals" in major corporations. The executive producer, production manager and field producer (and maybe some others) all have to sign off on a freelance invoice. Then it goes to accounting who puts it in the 30 day pay cycle. This may explain why it takes so long for some companies to pay up, but actually it's how they treat all vendors so you better get used to it.
I recently did a gig for DIY (Do It Yourself Network) and a blizzard of paperwork was required including a 20 page contract. Don't get me wrong they were nice people to work for but attorneys run the place. All this takes time and holds up payment.
One thing you should try in build into your business plan is something called "working capital" enough money to pay the rest of the crew and yourself before you get paid from your client. I know it's hard to put extra money aside for this (the temptation is to buy more gear when you have a little extra money) but believe me you'll sleep better nights and you won't have to try and change how most major corporations pay vendors.
I recently did a gig for DIY (Do It Yourself Network) and a blizzard of paperwork was required including a 20 page contract. Don't get me wrong they were nice people to work for but attorneys run the place. All this takes time and holds up payment.
One thing you should try in build into your business plan is something called "working capital" enough money to pay the rest of the crew and yourself before you get paid from your client. I know it's hard to put extra money aside for this (the temptation is to buy more gear when you have a little extra money) but believe me you'll sleep better nights and you won't have to try and change how most major corporations pay vendors.
Baltimore Shooter
Well-known member
Dhart makes a great point. I wish I thought of that when I started 10 yrs ago. Those who are considering full time freelancing should definately do this before they start.
I'd love to be able to get a working capital loan (banks call it a "line of credit"), however, it's a bit too late for me. You see my credit has gone to **** because I couldn't pay my bills on time. I couldn't pay my bills on time because I couldn't get paid on time. I couldn't get paid on time because I had to wait 60-90 days to get paid, because too many people just accepted this as a policy. So it just became a never ending cycle.
Now I do things differently. I don't "trust people" like I used to. Now I refuse to work for people who pay more than 30 days or first timers who won't pay at the end of the shoot. Since I did this, my credit is getting better, albeit, too damn slowly for my needs. So now, I just have to hang in there until my credit improves. Hope that helps.
Warren
I'd love to be able to get a working capital loan (banks call it a "line of credit"), however, it's a bit too late for me. You see my credit has gone to **** because I couldn't pay my bills on time. I couldn't pay my bills on time because I couldn't get paid on time. I couldn't get paid on time because I had to wait 60-90 days to get paid, because too many people just accepted this as a policy. So it just became a never ending cycle.
Now I do things differently. I don't "trust people" like I used to. Now I refuse to work for people who pay more than 30 days or first timers who won't pay at the end of the shoot. Since I did this, my credit is getting better, albeit, too damn slowly for my needs. So now, I just have to hang in there until my credit improves. Hope that helps.
Warren
Photographer
Well-known member
Baltimore: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the reasons for getting gear insurance to protect yourself incase something happens to your gear while on a shoot? Also isn't liability included in the insurance package? Sounds like your making someone else responsible but still paying for the insurance. Aren't we all about savbing money?
Baltimore Shooter
Well-known member
Yes, I am covered. But in these sue happy days that we're in, this is called CYA. Have you ever had to rent gear before? Even though the rental houses have equipment and liability insurance, they require that you do also. Why? Because they're covering their a$$es too. Insurance isn't cheap, and it's not as sexy as that new camera accessory, but when you need it, you're damn glad you have it. One more level of protection.
If you do any work with the Federal Government, they want you to be insured even though they're insured too. I guess it's kind of like wearing a condom after you've had a vasectomy (not that I've had one).
Warren
If you do any work with the Federal Government, they want you to be insured even though they're insured too. I guess it's kind of like wearing a condom after you've had a vasectomy (not that I've had one).
Warren
Well... I hate to sound like a broken record, but I wrote:
For all of you with the desire of becoming a freelance, this is the best advise you'll ever get. If you have any ambition of making it in this business, or in any business. Before wasting your time about how you are going to buy equipment or how to get clients, take some business courses, every HS adult education have many available. You'll learn how a good business plan will help you manage your cash flow so you will not find yourself in the same situation as Baltimore did and avoid the number one reason for small business failures. You'll see our business with an entirely different point of view.
Then Baltimore Shooter wrote:
And before that he wrote:
Not to be critical Baltimore, but your accumulated knowledge of business easly fits into the plastic box of a Betacam tape. but let's not argue with each other, first time mistakes are a form of education, the second time is a trend and stupidity. Let's use our mistakes to help other.
For all of you with the desire of becoming a freelance, this is the best advise you'll ever get. If you have any ambition of making it in this business, or in any business. Before wasting your time about how you are going to buy equipment or how to get clients, take some business courses, every HS adult education have many available. You'll learn how a good business plan will help you manage your cash flow so you will not find yourself in the same situation as Baltimore did and avoid the number one reason for small business failures. You'll see our business with an entirely different point of view.
A lot of this has already been said, but I'll throw in my 2 bits.
First of all, Nino, I agree with you 100%. The greedy people that overcharge for tape stock have ruined it for the rest of us that would like to charge a normal retail markup. I mean $15.00-$20.00 is all we should be charinging for a $10 item. Let's give a big thanks to our fellow shooters that have screwed that up. Now we've got clients FedExing us tapes or bringing some strange uknown brand with them.
Baltimore, if you think Nike builds, ships, advertises, and sells a $170 pair of shoes for $2.00, I'd like to see your documentation. That's just stupid. Besides, you can't even buy a pair of shoes from Nike. You buy from a retailer, such as Foot Locker that buys that pair of $170 shoes from Nike for maybe $100. Even that would be a pretty rare retail markup. Most markups are not anywhere near that high. Grocery stores only markup items a few percent above their wholesale cost. I can assure you that if get new tires on your car, the store did not buy them from Goodyear for 1/4 of what they charge you. A 300%-400% markup for tape stock, equipment rentals, or anything else is outragous. I don't blame clients for bringing their own tape.
Second, in all of my 20 years in this business I've never expected clients to pay within 30 days and it doesn't bother me at all if they are slow -- unless I fear that they might NEVER pay at all -- then I get very nervous. As long as I know the money is coming, I don't care if it takes 90 days. It's like money in the bank. Have you seen what interest rate your money is earning at the bank? What difference does it make to me if the money arrives today or a few weeks from now? On a $1500 bill you're only talking about $2-$3 of interest during a month! That's peanuts compared to pissing off an otherwise good client.
I even trust most first-time out of town clients to pay ontime -- and 99% of them do. No contracts, no cash upfront, no payment before release of tapes. Have a little trust in your fellow man. Most people are not out to screw you over. I'll get a few people every year that require a lot of phone calling to get the money out of them, but I'll bet everyone does no matter how many hoops you make a client jump through. And the more hoops you have clients jump through -- the fewer clients you'll have that will want to jump through them. If you think it's only deadbeat clients that won't sign a contract or be willing to pay upfront -- you are wrong. Even the very best clients don't want to be treated like deadbeats, and all things being equal, will go elsewhere. Imagine if you had a retail store and you frisked everyone when they left. Sure, you'd have no shoplifters, but honest customers won't put up with it. I know that's not a real good analogy, but it kinda fits.
Do I ever get stiffed? Yes. I've got several thousand dollars in receivables that will probably never get collected. That bothers me if I think about it very much, but in the overall scheme of things, that's just a cost of doing business. I work 170-190 days a year. Would I rather put more hurdles in front of my clients and work only 125 days? Nope. The bottom line is much larger if I work more days -- even if I don't get paid for a few of them. That's life.
The busier a retail store becomes, the more they'll lose to shoplifters and employee theft. But ultimately the overall bottom line is still better with a busier store.
Besides, I'd say my biggest non-paying customers are previous good clients that have gone bad. How do you protect youself from that? My biggest unpaid invoices are from clients that I didn't a problem with until they stopped paying.
I look at it this way. If I called an audio tech, prompter operator, or gaffer and they demanded that I pay upfront or whatever -- I'd look elsewhere because I wouldn't like that attitude and being treated like a deadbeat. To me, it says something about the person demanding the money. If that's their terms, I'll call someone else. Not because I don't want to pay, or can't pay, but because I don't like being treated that way. Plus a part of me thinks, "so, they have trouble collecting". I wonder why that is? Do they suck? Like most people I'm happy to pay for a job well done, and less likely to want to pay someone that sucked. What does that say for the person that's scared they won't get paid?
For the record, I don't even wait 30 days to PAY people that work for me. I cut checks at least twice a month, and any invoices on my desk when I cut checks get paid right then. If I'm cutting checks on a Friday and I got someone's invoice for a job on Thursday -- it gets paid right then. Why make people wait? I've got to pay everyone I hire whether or not my client EVER pays me, so why wait? I do the same thing with talent that I hire. They know they'll get a check the day they finish the shoot. You know, people have a much better attitude while they're working, and are much more likely to work you into thier schedule, when they know they'll have no problem getting paid. It's just good business.
If you've got a decent cash-flow with several weeks/month's pad sitting in the bank, you can sure sleep easier at night.
Here's something I do sometimes that I learned from one of my vendors many years ago. Offer a prompt-pay discount. Let's say your normal day-rate is $1400 but you agree to do a job for $1300. Make the invoice for $1400, but note that a $100 discount will be offered if the check arrives in 30 days. Now you are offering an incentive to pay on time instead of a penalty if they don't. That's a big difference. Also, if you do have trouble collecting, now you are going after them for $1400 instead of $1300.
I hope that helps someone.
First of all, Nino, I agree with you 100%. The greedy people that overcharge for tape stock have ruined it for the rest of us that would like to charge a normal retail markup. I mean $15.00-$20.00 is all we should be charinging for a $10 item. Let's give a big thanks to our fellow shooters that have screwed that up. Now we've got clients FedExing us tapes or bringing some strange uknown brand with them.
Baltimore, if you think Nike builds, ships, advertises, and sells a $170 pair of shoes for $2.00, I'd like to see your documentation. That's just stupid. Besides, you can't even buy a pair of shoes from Nike. You buy from a retailer, such as Foot Locker that buys that pair of $170 shoes from Nike for maybe $100. Even that would be a pretty rare retail markup. Most markups are not anywhere near that high. Grocery stores only markup items a few percent above their wholesale cost. I can assure you that if get new tires on your car, the store did not buy them from Goodyear for 1/4 of what they charge you. A 300%-400% markup for tape stock, equipment rentals, or anything else is outragous. I don't blame clients for bringing their own tape.
Second, in all of my 20 years in this business I've never expected clients to pay within 30 days and it doesn't bother me at all if they are slow -- unless I fear that they might NEVER pay at all -- then I get very nervous. As long as I know the money is coming, I don't care if it takes 90 days. It's like money in the bank. Have you seen what interest rate your money is earning at the bank? What difference does it make to me if the money arrives today or a few weeks from now? On a $1500 bill you're only talking about $2-$3 of interest during a month! That's peanuts compared to pissing off an otherwise good client.
I even trust most first-time out of town clients to pay ontime -- and 99% of them do. No contracts, no cash upfront, no payment before release of tapes. Have a little trust in your fellow man. Most people are not out to screw you over. I'll get a few people every year that require a lot of phone calling to get the money out of them, but I'll bet everyone does no matter how many hoops you make a client jump through. And the more hoops you have clients jump through -- the fewer clients you'll have that will want to jump through them. If you think it's only deadbeat clients that won't sign a contract or be willing to pay upfront -- you are wrong. Even the very best clients don't want to be treated like deadbeats, and all things being equal, will go elsewhere. Imagine if you had a retail store and you frisked everyone when they left. Sure, you'd have no shoplifters, but honest customers won't put up with it. I know that's not a real good analogy, but it kinda fits.
Do I ever get stiffed? Yes. I've got several thousand dollars in receivables that will probably never get collected. That bothers me if I think about it very much, but in the overall scheme of things, that's just a cost of doing business. I work 170-190 days a year. Would I rather put more hurdles in front of my clients and work only 125 days? Nope. The bottom line is much larger if I work more days -- even if I don't get paid for a few of them. That's life.
The busier a retail store becomes, the more they'll lose to shoplifters and employee theft. But ultimately the overall bottom line is still better with a busier store.
Besides, I'd say my biggest non-paying customers are previous good clients that have gone bad. How do you protect youself from that? My biggest unpaid invoices are from clients that I didn't a problem with until they stopped paying.
I look at it this way. If I called an audio tech, prompter operator, or gaffer and they demanded that I pay upfront or whatever -- I'd look elsewhere because I wouldn't like that attitude and being treated like a deadbeat. To me, it says something about the person demanding the money. If that's their terms, I'll call someone else. Not because I don't want to pay, or can't pay, but because I don't like being treated that way. Plus a part of me thinks, "so, they have trouble collecting". I wonder why that is? Do they suck? Like most people I'm happy to pay for a job well done, and less likely to want to pay someone that sucked. What does that say for the person that's scared they won't get paid?
For the record, I don't even wait 30 days to PAY people that work for me. I cut checks at least twice a month, and any invoices on my desk when I cut checks get paid right then. If I'm cutting checks on a Friday and I got someone's invoice for a job on Thursday -- it gets paid right then. Why make people wait? I've got to pay everyone I hire whether or not my client EVER pays me, so why wait? I do the same thing with talent that I hire. They know they'll get a check the day they finish the shoot. You know, people have a much better attitude while they're working, and are much more likely to work you into thier schedule, when they know they'll have no problem getting paid. It's just good business.
If you've got a decent cash-flow with several weeks/month's pad sitting in the bank, you can sure sleep easier at night.
Here's something I do sometimes that I learned from one of my vendors many years ago. Offer a prompt-pay discount. Let's say your normal day-rate is $1400 but you agree to do a job for $1300. Make the invoice for $1400, but note that a $100 discount will be offered if the check arrives in 30 days. Now you are offering an incentive to pay on time instead of a penalty if they don't. That's a big difference. Also, if you do have trouble collecting, now you are going after them for $1400 instead of $1300.
I hope that helps someone.
Long thread here with good points of view but some basic information is missing which might clear up a question or two of mine.
To Baltimore Shooter,
What kind of freelance work are you doing? The type of client may explain your way of doing business. I don't have clients sign pre-shoot agreements. Not having an agreement hasn't hurt me. Your contract is interesting to read and I agree with you about doing what you can to shift some of the liability to their shoulders if something goes wrong. You're right. You may have insurance to cover the same problems but why should you be the one forced to put in a claim. We all know putting in a claim leads to higher premiums.
Nino speaks with experience. The best thing I ever did BY ACCIDENT was take some business courses in college. I didn't think much of it at the time but that knowledge has certainly paid off. Things I take for granted and consider obvious while running a business seem to be overlooked by a lot of people who first start freelancing.
Douglas,
I'm happy you like to pay people right away. It's a good attitude and gains respect from those who work for you. I choose between two sound techs for gigs. We've all worked together for the last fifteen years so we know and trust each other. Lately they are treating me much nicer. Times are tough for audio people. Fewer jobs mean they value me and the jobs I bring them. I could take advantage of that. Force them to wait more than thirty days for their pay, even if I haven't gotten payment from the client. I don't. My deal with them is a paycheck in thirty days no matter what. THAT breeds loyalty.
It's been said before. CASH FLOW! It's the hardest concept for new freelancers to learn. Not only in how they get paid but how the companies and clients who pay them work. Understand cash flow and you'll have a better understanding how the big companies make money and stay in business.
That's our goal isn't it? To stay in business?
And lastly, I charge $25 per tape. That's not gouging anyone. If they want to save a buck or two they can supply their own. If I supply it there's nothing wrong with making a few bucks for supplying tape stock.
To Baltimore Shooter,
What kind of freelance work are you doing? The type of client may explain your way of doing business. I don't have clients sign pre-shoot agreements. Not having an agreement hasn't hurt me. Your contract is interesting to read and I agree with you about doing what you can to shift some of the liability to their shoulders if something goes wrong. You're right. You may have insurance to cover the same problems but why should you be the one forced to put in a claim. We all know putting in a claim leads to higher premiums.
Nino speaks with experience. The best thing I ever did BY ACCIDENT was take some business courses in college. I didn't think much of it at the time but that knowledge has certainly paid off. Things I take for granted and consider obvious while running a business seem to be overlooked by a lot of people who first start freelancing.
Douglas,
I'm happy you like to pay people right away. It's a good attitude and gains respect from those who work for you. I choose between two sound techs for gigs. We've all worked together for the last fifteen years so we know and trust each other. Lately they are treating me much nicer. Times are tough for audio people. Fewer jobs mean they value me and the jobs I bring them. I could take advantage of that. Force them to wait more than thirty days for their pay, even if I haven't gotten payment from the client. I don't. My deal with them is a paycheck in thirty days no matter what. THAT breeds loyalty.
It's been said before. CASH FLOW! It's the hardest concept for new freelancers to learn. Not only in how they get paid but how the companies and clients who pay them work. Understand cash flow and you'll have a better understanding how the big companies make money and stay in business.
That's our goal isn't it? To stay in business?
And lastly, I charge $25 per tape. That's not gouging anyone. If they want to save a buck or two they can supply their own. If I supply it there's nothing wrong with making a few bucks for supplying tape stock.
I almost forgot about this one.
Baltimore Shooter wrote:
Baltimore Shooter wrote:
Please Baltimore, don’t compare John (Lensmith) to yourself or to those other ones in DC, Phil and NYC who charge outrageous prices for tapes. For John getting tapes in Nicaragua is labor intense and costly. Knowingly or unknowingly John uses business criteria to charges his clients, that is to add all your costs (labor included) then tack on a customary profit. All you and I, and those other guys in DC, Phila and NYC have to do is to hit a few keys on our computer and two days later the tapes are at our front door. I hardly call that labor intense. Believe or not there are complex formulas used in business to arrive at customary, reasonable and competitive profit margins, doing what the next guy does are not one of them. Your (and those other guys) kind of thinking is what in business school we referred to as “The Business Prevention Departmentâ€
Out of 150+ days worked a year I will present a deal memo contract on one or two jobs a year. I've only been burned for nonpayment less than 5 times in the last fifteen years. I will only present a deal memo contract to new clients who call without any references whatsoever. You know the ones that call you from your listing in the state film guide. They're the ones who usually want a bargain anyway, so I want to spell the costs & terms out for them. Even so, I rarely withold tapes or demand payment on location because I warn them about my ownership of copyright prior to payment in full.
Usually, most of my new clients come to me recommended by another well established client. Part of this business is gaining a sense for whom to trust. Which for me, since I deal with about 99% large brand name clients, means most of the time bookings are accepted verbally without a contract with no problems.
Also, I make it very clear prior to the shoot that if the client shows up without tape stock they will be billed a reasonable price for tapes, but not my wholesale cost. Except for the networks, I don't accept offers for replacement for stock later and I also verbally specify that we will accept only Sony or Fuji stock.
I think John is certainly justified in charging more by the import costs and effort needed to customs broker his tapes. Meanwhile, stateside, charging a client $30-40 per tape that costs us $9.48 each is outrageous. If I were a producer and saw $40. per tape on a bill, I'd be pretty PO'ed.
Usually, most of my new clients come to me recommended by another well established client. Part of this business is gaining a sense for whom to trust. Which for me, since I deal with about 99% large brand name clients, means most of the time bookings are accepted verbally without a contract with no problems.
Also, I make it very clear prior to the shoot that if the client shows up without tape stock they will be billed a reasonable price for tapes, but not my wholesale cost. Except for the networks, I don't accept offers for replacement for stock later and I also verbally specify that we will accept only Sony or Fuji stock.
I think John is certainly justified in charging more by the import costs and effort needed to customs broker his tapes. Meanwhile, stateside, charging a client $30-40 per tape that costs us $9.48 each is outrageous. If I were a producer and saw $40. per tape on a bill, I'd be pretty PO'ed.
Hiding Under Here
Well-known member
So let me get this straight. Baltimore Shooter won't work for NBC, a shop that pays on an eight hour day at a union wage, that contributes to your FLEX plan, that rents your gear a la carte at an average cost of about $700/Day and all because they don't pay in 30 days? You have GOT to be ****ting me.
Hell, I don't even get around to BILLING my clients for 30 days. And i don't pay attention how long it takes for them to pay me -- unless it takes too long in which case I crank up the receivables end of the business and start to recover my money.
The beauty of working for the networks is that you get to work on good stories, you get some respect and you don't have to negotiate every time out because the rates are standardized. I can't stand hog haggling with producers about my rates; what I'll do for 8 hours, how about 10? What's my overtime rate? Will I do half days? Damn, the network calls you and you know the score. Now you can focus on the job. If they take 60 days to pay, I could care less. Why? Because I have a revolving system where I always have a certain amount of money outstanding and what comes in is what I need to live on and what stays out in receivables makes me feel secure because its not in yet. I really don't care how many days each invoice has been sitting because 99.9% of them come home in good time. It's the non-network people I fret over. They're the ones at higher risk of NOT paying the bills.
So, if that makes me a 5000 pound elephant tied to a tree I guess I am one. But I think it means something else.
Hey, it's busy up here. Hope all is well in freelance land for the rest of you guys. There's nothing I hate more than accounting. Nothing.
Hell, I don't even get around to BILLING my clients for 30 days. And i don't pay attention how long it takes for them to pay me -- unless it takes too long in which case I crank up the receivables end of the business and start to recover my money.
The beauty of working for the networks is that you get to work on good stories, you get some respect and you don't have to negotiate every time out because the rates are standardized. I can't stand hog haggling with producers about my rates; what I'll do for 8 hours, how about 10? What's my overtime rate? Will I do half days? Damn, the network calls you and you know the score. Now you can focus on the job. If they take 60 days to pay, I could care less. Why? Because I have a revolving system where I always have a certain amount of money outstanding and what comes in is what I need to live on and what stays out in receivables makes me feel secure because its not in yet. I really don't care how many days each invoice has been sitting because 99.9% of them come home in good time. It's the non-network people I fret over. They're the ones at higher risk of NOT paying the bills.
So, if that makes me a 5000 pound elephant tied to a tree I guess I am one. But I think it means something else.
Hey, it's busy up here. Hope all is well in freelance land for the rest of you guys. There's nothing I hate more than accounting. Nothing.
Gravity's Heavy
Member
I like what Baltimore said about sticking together. But Baltimore I don't think that Dino wanted an opinion he just wanted to share his pain.
Tapes- When I was working in Sears retail management; the rule of thumb to make a 40% profit on an item was to add:
cost + sales labor + transportation + storage x 2, then take 40% of that and add it to the TOTAL cost.
if the total cost is 10.00 then you would sell for 18.00.
That meant if they had a "40% off sale" then the discount would be 7.20 dollars or sell the item for 10.80
that way they did not loose money on a sale item.
SELL FOR WHAT YOU WANT. Around here the price is usually 25.00 but if you shoot 5 tapes then they discount it a bit.
Either way you can't shoot with out bullets.
If they want to ship tapes back I tell them I will settle for 16.00 each and they will save money on the shipping.
Almost Last, people will always take out their frustration on the person that can't really harm their position in life instead of the person that is jabbing the thorn in their side.
I would find it really helpful to see the contract/form from Dinosaur. If he is willing to share it. I know that lawyers cost money and he may not be willing to share this investment.
As far as cash flow - I pay almost everybody at the end of the day. Less things to remember and less ammunition for others to use on me and lastly, that is the way I would want others to do unto me.
Tapes- When I was working in Sears retail management; the rule of thumb to make a 40% profit on an item was to add:
cost + sales labor + transportation + storage x 2, then take 40% of that and add it to the TOTAL cost.
if the total cost is 10.00 then you would sell for 18.00.
That meant if they had a "40% off sale" then the discount would be 7.20 dollars or sell the item for 10.80
that way they did not loose money on a sale item.
SELL FOR WHAT YOU WANT. Around here the price is usually 25.00 but if you shoot 5 tapes then they discount it a bit.
Either way you can't shoot with out bullets.
If they want to ship tapes back I tell them I will settle for 16.00 each and they will save money on the shipping.
Almost Last, people will always take out their frustration on the person that can't really harm their position in life instead of the person that is jabbing the thorn in their side.
I would find it really helpful to see the contract/form from Dinosaur. If he is willing to share it. I know that lawyers cost money and he may not be willing to share this investment.
As far as cash flow - I pay almost everybody at the end of the day. Less things to remember and less ammunition for others to use on me and lastly, that is the way I would want others to do unto me.
I've been reading this post for a few days now and taking everyones statement under consideration.
To add my two cents, we live in a competitive world. Competition is what this country is founded on. I am going to charge what is profitable to me. Sometimes it is more sometimes it is less. If a client is sending me 50 shoots a year and wants 20% off, I'll do it. If a client brings in 2 shoots a year I'm going to charge them more. Of course if it is a PBS or independent doc I'll throw in things for free.
I am not going to risk my business because someone wants me to stick with them so THEY can make more money.
I'll stick together with others photogs during a stake out or press conference, but when it comes to money I'll do what I want.
If Warren/Baltimore Shooter wants to stick together he can start by not coming up to my clients while I'm working with them and passing his card. Yeah that's right while I was on a shoot in Baltimore he came up and handed the producer his card. Classy move Warren.
Enough said.
To add my two cents, we live in a competitive world. Competition is what this country is founded on. I am going to charge what is profitable to me. Sometimes it is more sometimes it is less. If a client is sending me 50 shoots a year and wants 20% off, I'll do it. If a client brings in 2 shoots a year I'm going to charge them more. Of course if it is a PBS or independent doc I'll throw in things for free.
I am not going to risk my business because someone wants me to stick with them so THEY can make more money.
I'll stick together with others photogs during a stake out or press conference, but when it comes to money I'll do what I want.
If Warren/Baltimore Shooter wants to stick together he can start by not coming up to my clients while I'm working with them and passing his card. Yeah that's right while I was on a shoot in Baltimore he came up and handed the producer his card. Classy move Warren.
Enough said.
- Status