Responding to rude potential clients

Chugach3DGuy

Well-known member
A few days back I responded to an ad that sounded like it could be a bit of fun in addition to being a monthly gig. I received a response that basically said, " we're interested, but we don't know how much all this is going to cost. Please name your price." I provided an informal estimate laying out a range of options with their appropriate price estimates from extreme low end to high end, all with a simplistic breakdown explaining what they're getting for their money. At a minimum, they were looking for coverage of an event that would take place indoors on a stage. We're talking 2 camera coverage (HDV) plus a still photog, and in the end this would be turned into a DVD or DVD set. Fully packaged and designed, (I'm assuming to sell). At most, they wanted video and stills coverage of 4 performers walking around town all day before the event, so there was a potential of at least a half dozen people with their respective half-day/full-day rates, not to mention all the editing, disc duplication, etc. that's involved.

In response to this I get a short email telling me they already had someone willing to do all the work for free for the past few weeks, but posted the ad because they wanted to know if they could get more work for nothing. And because I gave them prices, "it shows that I'm simply in it for the money", and they need the kind of people willing to do the work because they love doing it- not because they need to be paid for it.

Now, this isn't the first time I've been turned down, and that's not what bothers me. What gets me smoked up is the sheer arrogance and audacity at the notion that its absolutely okay to expect- or even demand, not just "cheaper than anyone else" prices, but everything for FREE!

I feel inclined to respond in some way to this last email, but I'm at a loss figuring out what exactly to say. I don't want to come off arrogant and abrasive, but at the same time, I feel I need to convey the simple fact that I'm not a charity, and utilizing the skills and talents of multiple people for several hours is going to cost more than a pat on the back and the warm, squishy feeling we all get when we shoot and edit video.

So what do you other freelancers and business owners do in situations like this? Do you find it all around better for you and your business to simply ignore people like this? Or do you make an attempt to educate them and help them understand that these are real skills and real gear that costs real money? I don't see anything wrong in the way I handled everything up until that point, but I still am a little green around the edges when it comes to things like business culture and "client perceptions" and all that jazz.
 

FTOJRLST

Well-known member
The saying, "You get what you pay for" comes to mind. And you might convey that back to them with a simple, I'll be available when you want to re-shoot it or get it edited better.

You could also pose a few questions like, do they get their doctor, dental, vision work for free? How about cars, hotels, flights, groceries?

Exactly.

But, be cordial, they may decide to pay one day.



A few days back I responded to an ad that sounded like it could be a bit of fun in addition to being a monthly gig. I received a response that basically said, " we're interested, but we don't know how much all this is going to cost. Please name your price." I provided an informal estimate laying out a range of options with their appropriate price estimates from extreme low end to high end, all with a simplistic breakdown explaining what they're getting for their money. At a minimum, they were looking for coverage of an event that would take place indoors on a stage. We're talking 2 camera coverage (HDV) plus a still photog, and in the end this would be turned into a DVD or DVD set. Fully packaged and designed, (I'm assuming to sell). At most, they wanted video and stills coverage of 4 performers walking around town all day before the event, so there was a potential of at least a half dozen people with their respective half-day/full-day rates, not to mention all the editing, disc duplication, etc. that's involved.

In response to this I get a short email telling me they already had someone willing to do all the work for free for the past few weeks, but posted the ad because they wanted to know if they could get more work for nothing. And because I gave them prices, "it shows that I'm simply in it for the money", and they need the kind of people willing to do the work because they love doing it- not because they need to be paid for it.

Now, this isn't the first time I've been turned down, and that's not what bothers me. What gets me smoked up is the sheer arrogance and audacity at the notion that its absolutely okay to expect- or even demand, not just "cheaper than anyone else" prices, but everything for FREE!

I feel inclined to respond in some way to this last email, but I'm at a loss figuring out what exactly to say. I don't want to come off arrogant and abrasive, but at the same time, I feel I need to convey the simple fact that I'm not a charity, and utilizing the skills and talents of multiple people for several hours is going to cost more than a pat on the back and the warm, squishy feeling we all get when we shoot and edit video.

So what do you other freelancers and business owners do in situations like this? Do you find it all around better for you and your business to simply ignore people like this? Or do you make an attempt to educate them and help them understand that these are real skills and real gear that costs real money? I don't see anything wrong in the way I handled everything up until that point, but I still am a little green around the edges when it comes to things like business culture and "client perceptions" and all that jazz.
 

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
Well, I guess that's what you get for answering a Craigslist ad. :D

You could also send him the "Pay The Writer" and "The Client Vendor Relationship" videos from Youtube.

Warren
 

ian515

Well-known member
dont know what service this company provides, but you could call back with a different name, and ask for their services....for free. I mean, they love THEIR jobs, right? of course, thats not proffesional, its just fun.
 

f11vid

PRO user
Are you kidding? Anybody can shoot video. You're stupid to pay for it.Perfect example. My Uncle Harry wanted his daughter's wedding video'd.But they want,like,five hunnerd bucks to shoot it. No way.
So, my cousin Ralph says he'll do it with his home camera.He's good at this stuff.Here...watch...
See, here's the church...What's that?... No it WASN'T at night...there's some setting on the camera he forgot or somethin'...but he figgers it out later...now watch..OK,here they are coming down the aisle...
nice,huh?....oh,and there's this cute part where the flower girl and the ringbearer come up,but Ralph can't find that part of the tape yet....and here they are taking their vows....What?..where's the bride?
....she's behind them flowers somewheres...nice,huh...oh, THAT...that's where Ralph left the camera running in the trunk of his car on the way to the reception...he's gonna cut that out later....Ah,here's the reception...THAT cost a pretty penny, let me tell ya...but nuthin's too good for Harry's little girl.
...oh,so here's the ballroom...yeah,well that part is a little dark,I guess....and here's the speech by the best man...what?.....no, the sound got goofed up somehow..but what he said was something about the groom bein' a good guy and all...nice, huh?....
 

Necktie Boy

Well-known member
I hate to say but, let it go. It sound that they will never learn. Yea, they were pretty rude. And the CL is full of those kind of people. As many have said, they get for what they pay. And you can wish that the production goes bad! I will admit that I do look for jobs on the CL, and have learned which are real offers and which are just trolling.

If you really want to reply, keep it simple. State that you do like doing what you are doing, but I have to feed my family and pay the bills. If you already had someone lined up to do the work, it was also unfair to those people.

But I will say that I have lashed back. I did burn a bridge, but I know that I would never cross that bridge again. So, be careful in what you say, you never know if they will cross your bridge again.
 

A Step Above Productions

Well-known member
We have all run into people like this before and this will not change.

There is nothing more we can do.

All we can do is explain that we are in business, a business is out to make money and if they want profesional services they must pay for it.

Yes they can find someone out there to do it for free but you get what you pay for.
 

Max Girth

Well-known member
There's nothing you can say to get through to a person like that.

But I might briefly mention that you are a professional, and since professionals do indeed find work on Craigslist, that they should amend their job posting that it's not a paying gig.

CL has rules about that. I'd flag their post, and tell her you're doing so.
 

SimonW

Well-known member
I would respond with;

"I am sorry that you will not be requiring my services at this time. I wish you the best of luck with your project. Don't forget that I am always here should you need to pay for someone to reshoot everything."
 

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
I think there's another issue in play here. Sure, we are pissed that someone expects us to do all this professional, network quality work for free. We blame them for trying to get something for nothing and we blame Craigslist for allowing those kinds of posts. Like Harlin Ellison said, "it's the amateurs who make it tough for the professionals". But some of the professionals are to blame as well.

We know those who have little or no experience will jump at the chance to do something even though there's no pay in it, thinking that will lead to paid jobs. It won't and they'll just get taking advantage of. But the professionals should know better and yet they undercut other professionals by giving an extremely low rate, adding in extra gear like jibs, HMIs, wide angle lenses, etc at not extra charge, working 12 or 15 hours or more and not charging OT.

We can try to "educate the client" but I think we also need to educate the newbies in this business as well as the professionals who should know better.

How do we do that? Well, with the newbies, the j-schools and film schools need to reserve at least one day on how to price a project, not to low-ball the other people in this business and them remind them throughout their academic career. For those who have been in the business a while, I'm not sure, maybe a workshop through professional organizations like MCA (formerly ITVA), local film commissions, even the unions.

Education on both sides could help to reduce these kinds of ridiculous requests.

Warren
 

cameragod

Well-known member
I was shooting at a concert for news. There was a multi cam shoot happening for a DVD and couldn't take my eyes of a guy lumping around a glidecam vaguely toward what was happening on stage. "What is he charging" I asked a friend operating another camera, "He's doing it for the experience so he's free"
"He'd have to be." I replied.
Ok he's got to learn but it still annoys me that hes taking work.
 

SimonW

Well-known member
I agree with Warren in that education should play a part in this. Considering that this industry is predominantly freelance and/or people running their own small limited companies the university and college course barely pay lip service to the actual business side of things.
 

Chugach3DGuy

Well-known member
Well, I ended up writing what I consider to be a pretty good, but sharp, email. After reading over the email and then this thread a couple times, I decided against sending it. This town is small enough as it is, and while part of me would really enjoy ripping into these yokels, the other part doesn't want to risk the potential negative word of mouth. Bad word of mouth is still damaging, even if its all lies!

The people in question are trying to beef up the comedy scene here in town by bringing in well-known comedians once a month to perform. From the correspondence with them, it sounded like a great opportunity to set up a monthly gig. Then, after hearing about their expectations and higher-end production requirements, it sounded like a chance to get work with colleagues and friends who also work in the world of video. They wanted street teams following these people around during the day and then recording the entire performance that evening. Fully edited DVDs, etc. They wanted nothing to do with the production or post-production at all. They wanted to hand it all off to someone that knows what they're doing. Turns out I'm a chump for expecting to be paid for all of that!

Interestingly enough, a friend of mine who is a freelance web designer designed and built their website. Just a day or so after completing and launching the site, these people "just happened to run in to an old friend that could maintain the website for free". So, they basically fired my web-designer friend and demanded he give them all his project and working files so they can do it all themselves now. How convenient. And no, he's not giving them any working files. Hopefully he won't get too much of a headache from the whole thing.

Still, I'm not sure if it's due to the "economy" or the zodiac or whatever, but it seems that there's been a surge of these kinds of people lately. The senses of entitlement and melodrama seem to know no bounds these days. When you stick to your ground, some of these people act like you're twisting a rusty dagger into their chests. The Plight of the Small Business is everywhere, and stories of how I'm single-handedly pushing them "over the edge" are a dime a dozen.

Like Warren and Simon, I agree with the importance of education. I was thinking back to the one "professional preparation" course I had in college. It was basically a resume-writing course with some emphasis on how to not waste time and get things done. Because entry-level jobs in the video game industry needed glassy-eyed drones manning those workstations! I think the reasons most art schools completely neglect courses like this is because they're focused more on squeezing students dry and making them feel good about learning software or being in an environment where students can focus on their own art projects. Most people I remember being in college with, myself included, weren't interested in anything business-related. Then again, I was a cocky 18-year-old that thought he knew everything... Like most 18-year-olds do. I had no idea that 11 years later I'd be striking off on my own. Now it feels like I'm playing catch-up, but I'm happier playing catch-up and learning about how important some of these things are as opposed to being some minuscule cog in a giant corporation.
 

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
Got this from another board of similar issue:

"I wouldn't get involved in the project after all that but PLEASE say SOMETHING to him. It's really important that he has an understanding and respect for people and their lives.

It is all part of a big domino effect. If you can get one person to understand the error of their ways, eventually it can circle back and help you, directly or indirectly. Let him know, firmly but politely, that this is wrong.

Life is all about how much people will put up with. Besides that, what does it say about you as an assertive professional if you say nothing to him and merely slink away?

You never know what may come of this guy. Let him remember you as having some kahunas!"
---------------------------

Warren
 

2000lux

Well-known member
You could just tell them "I'm sorry, but I'm a professional. I do this for a living. Good luck with the person who's willing to do it for free" and leave it at that.

Generally I just leave these kind of idiots alone. Negativity has a way of spreading.
 

Ken

Well-known member
I taught a Cinematography course at one of the colleges here in Boston. The most difficult part for me was not when they asked questions about cinematography... it was when they asked about getting a job, and they all asked it. I didn't have a good answer for it. And my own experience when 1st out of college was taking an internship at a local TV station for a salary of $0. After 3 months they paid for my travel.

Out of college you'll do about anything to get "in". And working for free actually worked for me because at the local station they saw I was committed, and when a job did open, I was hired.

My guess is that most of these CL postings are looking for people in or just out of college looking for experience. Any pro who does one of these jobs for free is just an idiot plain and simple... it doesn't lead to more or real work. Leave this stuff for the beginners. I don't even bother looking at those posts.

Therefore no need to ever have to respond.
 

Necktie Boy

Well-known member
"Turns out I'm a chump for expecting to be paid for all of that!"

Chugach3DGuy,

You shouldn't fell that way. It does sound a great job. Get out of the office. Get to meet some cool people. Do a great job with the shooting and editing..Leaving you with a good feeling...It was those people that are chumps!
 
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