Responding to rude potential clients

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
You could just tell them "I'm sorry, but I'm a professional. I do this for a living. Good luck with the person who's willing to do it for free" and leave it at that.

Generally I just leave these kind of idiots alone. Negativity has a way of spreading.
That's something else I was thinking. You could use a Professional sports player as an analogy. Tell him that Cal Ripkin and Ray Lewis (replace these names w/ counterparts in your city) played for the love of the game but they got paid (handsomely) for it.

Then there's another way. A local shooter told me he'll agree to shoot something for free. When they want tapes...that's when he charges his rate. They don't to pay, they don't get the tapes. Just a thought.

Warren
 

Chugach3DGuy

Well-known member
Necktie Boy, I was being sarcastic with that chump remark. It seems not too uncommon for some people to take the low road of trying to make you feel guilty for charging anything at all, whether it's $200/hr or 20 cents/hr.

My guess is that most of these CL postings are looking for people in or just out of college looking for experience. Any pro who does one of these jobs for free is just an idiot plain and simple... it doesn't lead to more or real work. Leave this stuff for the beginners. I don't even bother looking at those posts.
Some of the time, I can see this being the case, but not always. The post I responded to in particular was looking for people with experience and equipment. I know the kinds of posts you're talking about, because I've seen those before too and know to avoid them. There's a thread floating around here somewhere with a large collection of CL ads that have been flagged for similar reasons mentioned in this thread. Some of the more recent additions to that thread showed CL ads where applicants were expected to have well over $10k worth of production and post-production gear- for an all day gig with a whopping $200 to collect at the end of it.

At some points, I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall in the offices of these wacky people. There are so many of these kinds of posts, that it must be working in their favor at least some of the time. If it didn't, you'd think they would have caught on by now. Then again, I still get emails from General Paguk in Nigeria informing me of yet another long lost uncle that left me a $2 million inheritance!

Oh, and Warren, that sports analogy is great!
 

Hiding Under Here

Well-known member
Anybody who tells you to "name your price" and then voids what you say by retorting that they want it done for free is a manipulative, selfish, arrogant and abusive schmuck and not worth a second thought. Never -- not in a million years -- would you want to work for such a person. Or, I might add, WITH such a person. Close the book on this interaction and move on to something more productive. You have expended far too much energy on these folks for dark reasons that probably should be left unexplored.
 

Nino

Well-known member
Anybody who tells you to "name your price" and then voids what you say by retorting that they want it done for free is a manipulative, selfish, arrogant and abusive schmuck and not worth a second thought. Never -- not in a million years -- would you want to work for such a person. Or, I might add, WITH such a person. Close the book on this interaction and move on to something more productive. You have expended far too much energy on these folks for dark reasons that probably should be left unexplored.
Amen to that.

Actually I was kind of amused on how much energy is going into this topic. I remember my first post on B-Roll was a reply to one of the many Warren posts eternally complaining and blaming all of his problems to those undercutting his rates. This was seven years ago and the topic is still here, maybe one day we’ll come to the conclusion that there isn’t a damn thing that we can do about it. For years Warren has been calling for somebody to do something about it, anybody, I have yet to see Warren take any initiative himself. Two years ago I asked on this board to see a show of hands of anyone who would be interested in approaching the PPA, Professional Photographer Association of America (in my opinion the best professional organization in existence) in order to create a video professional group that would do pretty much what Warren would like to see, and that’s educate the professional. I got two responses, and Warren wasn’t even one of them. Like they say, if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

I’ve been in this business for 40 years and under-cutters have been an integral part of this business. The availability of today’s good quality and very affordable cameras will make the problem even worse; until a few years ago at least some of these guys were cheap but getting paid, now they are giving it away for free because for many of them is the only way to get some sort of experience and some material for their demo reel. If you really think about it, it's the new way of internship as internship as we knew it is gone.

Actually people undercutting rates have been a very beneficial part of my career, is because of them that I pushed myself to always be better that they are, they have always been my motivation because soon or later they’ll get better and if you stand still they’ll catch up to you; you always have to maintain a sizable distance. I want them to charge less that I do and I would get really PO if somebody with half of my skills and equipment investment was able to get the same rates that I do. If they would get so close that my clients could not tell the difference I wouldn't blame them or my clients, I blame myself.

In the mid 80s when video equipment started becoming portable and relatively inexpensive (by comparison) undercutting became a problem for many professionals especially those who were making the transition from film to video. We had to explain clients what the difference was and all the variables that can bring the cost upward. To facilitate this we created a client’s educational video. In that video we explained all the different variables that a client can choose in their video production decision making process. We explained in details what goes into the entire process, from early planning to the finished product. We also showed differences with real video productions between good, mediocre and bad productions and what goes into to make it good or what is left out that makes a video not so good or really bad. It was a very effective video and a great sales tool but most important it educated the clients.

We can not expect the clients to know about our business, everybody try to save money and cut costs, it is our responsibility to educate them, saying that you are better is not enough, unless those who charge less will tell client that the reason that they are cheaper is because they are not as good as you, you know that will never happen. This is a visual business we have to show the difference.
 

A Step Above Productions

Well-known member
If you still have a copy of this video I would love to see it.


In the mid 80s when video equipment started becoming portable and relatively inexpensive (by comparison) undercutting became a problem for many professionals especially those who were making the transition from film to video. We had to explain clients what the difference was and all the variables that can bring the cost upward. To facilitate this we created a client’s educational video. In that video we explained all the different variables that a client can choose in their video production decision making process. We explained in details what goes into the entire process, from early planning to the finished product. We also showed differences with real video productions between good, mediocre and bad productions and what goes into to make it good or what is left out that makes a video not so good or really bad. It was a very effective video and a great sales tool but most important it educated the clients.
 

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
Well Nino, what would you like me to do, join the PPA? Tell me more about them.

By the way Nino, what's all this hostility towards me? I think you need to do some yoga, or maybe therapy.

Warren
 

Nino

Well-known member
Well Nino, what would you like me to do, join the PPA? Tell me more about them.

By the way Nino, what's all this hostility towards me? I think you need to do some yoga, or maybe therapy.

Warren
There’s no hostility Warren. I’m sick and tired of listening to you complaining and put down this business and those who do not think like you do. I’ve been doing a very good living with this business and I’m still as excited about what I’ll be doing tomorrow as I was 40 years ago when I started, and that might be the main difference between success and failure. You will never hear somebody who is successful complaining about this profession, only losers complain.

I’m not even going to bother answering your PPA reply, if you don’t get it I’m not wasting my time explaining it to you. If you think there’s a problem then get involved, don’t just sit on you’re a$$ hoping that somebody else will do it for you.

The problem with this business is that we are like bunch of sheep; we follow the others without even knowing where we are heading. Do you know why you are charging your rates? In business there are formulas to arrive to a number that you should charge for your services, some of these formulas can be very involved but be assured that under or over charging you competitors is not part of that formula; you do however once you have arrive at the final number check what the going rates are, if you are too high you might not get the business, if too low you might not be able to provide the quality of services that the market is accustomed to receive or your competitor are currently offering.

This is a free enterprise and competition is a healthy part of any business. Competition doesn’t mean being cheaper, it means giving clients a better value, that could be in skills, equipment or service, you can be considerably more expensive than anyone else and still be more competitive. I can assure you that if I have all these qualities and I can provide a better service to any potential client the last thing on my mind would be of not doing so much for a potential client because this might put my competitors who can not afford or capable of offering everything I can at a clear disadvantage when competing against me, so let me hold myself back so people like you might have a fair chance to get that client instead of me; are you f***ing serious man? The bottom line in every business is making money and in business you do whatever it takes to get it, if you like what you are doing and are having fun doing it that’s a bonus. Warren you better stop bitching about those losers who charge less than you do and start looking at those who are successful in this business and see what they are doing right that apparently you are not doing.

I know that that cheap shot about HMIs was directed to me as we had the same conversation many times in the past, you didn’t get it then and still don’t get it. I have 6 HMIs in my van; if the client ask for HMIs or the job calls for HMI or a jib I charge for it, but if I’m in the middle of a job and I know that by taking one or two HMI out of my van I will do a much better job then I’ll do it on my own, I’m not going to tell the client that if you pay me $250 more I can do a better job. I made the extra $30K investment for one reason and that’s to make more money. Making more money doesn’t mean a-la-carte charges only; it also means repeatability, retaining a good client for the future, I much rather make $2000 per day twenty time a year than $250 more per day a few days a year.
 

Nino

Well-known member
If you still have a copy of this video I would love to see it.
Even if I had one it would be way outdated, we were showing 1" as top of the line and 3/4 as a cheap substitute. Is the concept that's important. This is the type of marketing material that an organization would provide, the PPA has tons of such material for their members but that's for commercial and portrait still photographers. That's what I tried to do with us but it didn't work.
 

A Step Above Productions

Well-known member
Even if I had one it would be way outdated, we were showing 1" as top of the line and 3/4 as a cheap substitute. Is the concept that's important. This is the type of marketing material that an organization would provide, the PPA has tons of such material for their members but that's for commercial and portrait still photographers. That's what I tried to do with us but it didn't work.
I know it would be outdated but I was just thinking it wold be a blast to watch with all the changes over the last 25 years. Nothing we could use today just fun to watch.
 

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
Just as bad or worse, depending on your view is this:

Google wants to pay artists in "exposure"

Google is having artists make custom skins for its Chrome Browser, which is pretty cool. Much less cool, however, is that one of the biggest companies in the world refuses to pay the artists.

Many of the established artists are refusing to hand over their work to Google for no cash based on promises of free exposure.

"I have done gift cards for Target that are in stores nationwide and animations for Nickelodeon that run 24 hours a day worldwide on cable TV," Melinda Beck, an illustrator who is based in Brooklyn, wrote in an e-mail message to Google rejecting its offer. "Both of these jobs were high-profile and gave my work great exposure but both clients still paid me."

It's tough to see Google's position as reasonable here. Sure, these artists will get exposure, but if they can't get paid by Google, who will pay them? The paid-in-exposure deal is something you see offered by student films looking for actors and new publications with no money looking for writers, and it's only justifiable when the employers in question are completely unable to pay for work, and even then it's questionable. But Google? Google can afford it. Exposure is great, but as anyone who's ever tried to make money on the internet can tell you, you can't pay your rent with exposure.

Whatever happened to "Don't Be Evil," Google?
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Like Google doesn't have money to pay artists??? To paraphrase Harlin Ellison "What, is Google out with an eye patch and a tin cup on the street?"

Time to stop using Google.

Warren
 

Hiding Under Here

Well-known member
The internet has somehow taken an idea that used to be novel, the idea that people who loved to do something like filmmaking should do it for low pay or for free, and spread that idea into more fields than one can count. There are so many young people who aspire to be artists or artistic, who believe they can "express" themselves to a larger audience. And there are more of them today than ever before because in this country there is a loathing of work. No one wants to work any more. They want to translate their thoughts, their impulses, their ideas into money. They don't want to make refrigerators or cars, or become doctors. Their parents told them they were special and they want to dazzle fellow citizens with their specialness and get paid to do it.

Unfortunately there just aren't enough slots in the creative world for all those wannabes and that shift in supply and demand is tilting the creative arts into the "toy" career category: only the sons and daughters of the well-heeled need to apply since they don't need the pay.

The internet, with its easy blogging access, and cable TV, with fools like Paris Hilton and Ozzie Ozborne raking in the dough, make every one feel as thought they have a chance to live the easy life and retire without anxiety.

This country is in deep trouble. Deep, deep trouble. We used to be special. Now, only a few generations removed from WWII we have gone very soft. And working for free -- or for much more than you are worth -- are distinct signs of our cultural degradation.
 

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
Well, if you "love what you do you're supposed to do it for free" then tell him you don't love what you do therefore you have to charge for it.

Warren
 
I think that as SimonW and others said it is a matter of education for many. What bothered me most about my senior year of college was realizing that I knew little to nothing about the business aspect of this business. It suddenly occurred to me that myself and my classmates didn't even know what the normal pay scale for staffers at the local stations was or how much to ask. Let alone the various aspects of freelance. I still have several former co-workers who find out that I am freelance and respond with by saying that they are sorry I have not found something at one of the locals.

What they don't know is my dayrate provides way better than the last offer for a staff job was. Yeah I may be working less than I want these days but I still have the option to explore other avenues of business because my time is money. If I want I could pick up a few rental houses or do something else that generates income. But I will not work for free as (time = money).

PS. I too would love to see this video of nino's, Yeah it may be outdated but all the better.

QUOTE=SimonW;223523]I agree with Warren in that education should play a part in this. Considering that this industry is predominantly freelance and/or people running their own small limited companies the university and college course barely pay lip service to the actual business side of things.[/QUOTE]
 
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