XDCam vs P2

tarzan

tarzan

Well-known member
I'd like to hear from those of you out there who are familiar with both formats. What are the pros and cons of each, which do you like better, and which tapeless format do you think will be the dominant one in the TV news industry? I started shooting/editing on P2 about 5 months ago, and at first I was excited about the new technology. But one thing I found to be both ridiculous and problematic was the cost of the P2 cards. Each card costs about $800. This is of course problematic because TV stations aren't likely to be willing to buy large quantities of P2 cards, so they're not as disposable as tapes. It's not as easy to just drop a P2 card off at the station and go back out and shoot something else. I only found out recently that XDCam discs, which store about the same amount of video recording time, only cost about $20 each (I guess optical disc technology isn't as complicated as flash memory?), so they really DO seem to have the advantages of tapeless technology without losing the advantages of tape. I can't tell you how many times already I've had reporters ask me if I still have this or that raw video from what I'd shot 5 or 6 days ago, and had to tell them no, I had to erase the P2 card to make more space to shoot other stuff.
Question for those of you who shoot on xdcam: Since your discs are relatively cheap, do you have "weekly recycle bin/shelf" for xdcam field discs, like most organized tape-based TV stations have/had? Do you have reporters/producers hoarding xdcam discs in their desks like they used to with field tapes, until you have to hold them upside down by their ankles to get them to recycle them?
 
XD Cam Disk

We have been using XD for over a year now. What we do is for shorter stories...reuse the disk..before reformating it...every story is injested into our Avid interplay system...where we can put resevations on video for however long we want to...so it is not erased. The other option that we do with material that we need to hold on tofor a longer period, is to do a data transfer to a DVD...it is very simple ...doesn't take that long to do...and the material is still in and MXF format that can be accessed by an editor...freeing up the XD disk.
 
Coug86 said:
The other option that we do with material that we need to hold on tofor a longer period, is to do a data transfer to a DVD...it is very simple ...doesn't take that long to do...
Click to expand...
How long? There are many days when I barely even have time to go to the men's room to poop.
 
tarzan said:
How long? There are many days when I barely even have time to go to the men's room to poop.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that question is a bit dependent on the computer that's making the copy. In general though, around 15 to 20 minutes to copy an entire 23gb disc to the hard drive so that you can go on back out with the disc. Then the disc contents can be copied from the hard drive to a DVD after you're gone.

And yes, the primary reason I prefer XDCAM optical over P2 is media cost. Plus the fact that there weren't any comparable P2 HD cameras available in early 2006 when I got the F350.

cm
 
When our station had the two cameras, p2 and xd, side by side it was real obvious to me the advantages of the p2. The xd disc is bulky, to have an extra disc on you means you have to carry it in a fanny pack. the xd cameras consume a lot of power which means either going with a heavier battery or forget about using your top light for 6pm live shots. To edit in the field with xd, you either need a deck to ingest the video into your laptop computer or you have to hook up your camera to your editor. The camera option is a drag on battery power as well and takes your camera out of service. The P2 is great, you can pull a card out of your camera while you're rolling, stick it directly into a laptop and download. I've done this while shooting a long court case. Yes, 4gb cards only hold 15 min of video, but the newer cards hold 4 to 8 times as much video. And you don't store video on the cards forever, you download them to a hard drive and keep it for as long as you need. I have a portable drive that I store file video on that I can take with me. I don't have to go looking through some drawer with a bunch of old discs that are labeled with my chicken scratch. It doesn't make much sense to my work flow to store video on a disk anyway. what if you only shot 2 minutes on the disc, then your waisting all that space for a shot or two. The newer p2 hd cams are relatively cheap these days, I'm betting shooting directly to hard drive is the way of the future. Disc based cameras are just a step in that direction and sony is already coming out with a hard drive version of the xd.
 
XD Cam Professional Disks
Pros: Cost ($1/GB for a 23 GB Disk), Robust Format, Large Recording Space (85 min in DV25 format)
Cons: Still has moving parts, Download speed still 4x IIRC

P2 RAM Cards
(Never worked with one. P2 users add comment)

All things being equal (Same camera front end, same recording format etc) the push will be towards dockable/swapable solid state memory cards. Anytime you can get away from moving parts, you save yourself from having those parts breaking. They are also energy hogs (damn you inertia!) Plus the cost is coming down on the cards. When they reach economic parity w. Professional Disks, adios disks!
 
Let me just explore an area P2 users never seem to address.

Archive.

XDCAM - done
P2 - extra time and money, hard disk drive is not an archive media.
 
BlueWing said:
Let me just explore an area P2 users never seem to address.

Archive.

XDCAM - done
P2 - extra time and money, hard disk drive is not an archive media.
Click to expand...

Whats great about the 4 GB and 8 GB P2 cards is that you can dump them directly to a DVD for archive. Takes extra time, but sure is cheap.

Can't do that with the larger cards yet, but in the future blu-ray burning will be cheaper.
 
BlueWing said:
Let me just explore an area P2 users never seem to address.

Archive.

XDCAM - done
P2 - extra time and money, hard disk drive is not an archive media.
Click to expand...

I've been asking this question a lot. There seem to be 2 basic answers #1 is store it on a hard drive, and stick the HD on the shelf. This option scares me a little, because I have had too many extrernal drives fail. #2 is to back up on DLT, since they are now just computer files, this is the way the financial houses store trillions of dollars worth of information. A little extra work for sure, but pretty safe.

A third more interesting option is that as the cost of flash media drops it will eventually become cost effective to store it on regular flash media cards that can be bought anywhere.
 
I’ve shot for two different news networks over the last two years. One is P2 the other XD. I can not think of one area where P2 is better than XD. Oh wait the, LCD monitor on the P2 is more true color… but then it breaks more often.
Battery consumption in the field is about the same. Shooting a live with XD I put it in power save and have done a 2 hour spot without changing battery.
The P2 camera is heavier.
The P2 camera is more likely to go green under mixed lighting.
A $30 XD disk is like a 23gig card, what would a 23gig P2 card cost?
The XD moving parts are guaranteed for 7 years.
Putting a P2 card in and out of the slot is moving parts. They are only guaranteed for a certain number of movements… can’t remember how many but we worked it out to about 9 months in a busy news room. I know of 3 P2 cameras currently with slots that don’t work and even one with a 4 gig card stuck in the camera, apparently it’s not worth fixing.
The techs at the P2 shop tell me they wish they were XD. The techs at the XD shop are smug as hell about it.
Avid seem to hate P2, why else is it so unreliable?
If I use an XD cam at the P2 Network it ingests to Avid without crashing. P2 crashes the server all the time.
There is lots more.
I know experiences may differ. P2 has got some good points but next to XD cam its like dating the second prettiest girl in the room.
 
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I agree with Cameragod here. New Zealand is a test market and one network went P2, the other XDCAM. We have been running this 'test' for a while now.

Having worked with both, and talked with many shooters and editors.... nobody but the Panasonic reps have any good words about P2.
 
032 said:
...the xd cameras consume a lot of power which means either going with a heavier battery or forget about using your top light for 6pm live shots.


I'm betting shooting directly to hard drive is the way of the future.
Click to expand...

1. Uh... How about breaking out a real light.

2. Didn't catch on when Ike and Avid tried it.
 
As for achieving on P2, I back-up my files on 2 external hard-drives. With the price of ext hard drives dropping, it's easy to work in the cost. You can also work from the card and off load only the good takes which can be marked in-camera. This saves time and space. I work in a corporate/industrial environment and not in news so your mileage may vary.
 
We archive to DVD and it hasn't been a problem. Honestly, the cameras are not drastically different in any way, just like Beta and DVCPro aren't drastically different in any way.
 
Freelance Perspective

I've used both. I like XDCAM better. I'm not going to hand some out-of-town producer my stash of $1000 P2 cards and wait 90 days to get them back. And everyone's always in a hurry; there's no time to dump P2 off onto other media. Better to shoot it in XD; hand 'em a couple of discs, wave goodbye, and never have to worry about it.

On the other hand; I have a corporate client that shoots P2 and they're sold on it. They literally have a shoebox FULL of P2 cards. They back them up to DVD's (moving parts) and recycle the P2 cards. It's all good to me. We use their cameras & their cards. And even if she's the second prettiest girl in the room; it's better than tape.
 
Yeah, our workflow is this:

People sign out 10 cards. Depending on the story, their cards may or may not be selected for archiving. If they are selected, then, after the cards are ingested, they are given to our librarian who burns them to DVD. The cards then go back to our ENG room where they're formatted and put back into circulation. So, if I shoot on a card today, most likely it's back in rotation by the next morning.
 
I've used both

My old station went P2 about a year ago and I'm now working at a station that's XD. Here's my two cents:

P2:

- Gorgeous video
- quick loading into the computer
- No moving parts in camera (not inc. lens)
- Pretty good monitor
- Easy to figure out menus
- Poor archive
- $$$$ for memory cards

XD:

- Feels heavier (although it may not be)
- uses power more quickly
- Great video, a hair under the P2
- Much smaller monitor, delicate monitor connectors
- Much cheaper media
- Longer to ingest
- Slightly more complex menus

Overall, I would give a slight edge to the P2- except for archiving, which is it's Achille's Heel. This was a problem the entire time from introduction to the day I left. Someone will come up with a simple, permanent solution someday, but we didn't have it. With XD, the archive solution is simple and elegant- save to other XD discs- no worries about HD failures, offsite storage or software issue dumping a whole month's worth of shooting into the trash can (it happened).

In short, P2 for shooting, XD for archive.
 
Solid-state technology from Panasonic and Sony has been, is, and will be ahead of its time for a little bit longer. Cost is the key. Once these cards come down in price, in several years, it'll just be like buying a XDCAM disc or tape.

The technology is just ahead of its time right now.

In the end, you can list all the cons you want about XDCAM, P2, or ExpressCard...but I'd take all 3 over tape ;)
 
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