Which digital format -- today?

[Douglas]

Finally a subject that I don't have an opinion on.

It turns out that I may be missing out on a couple of shoots every month because I don't have a DV camera. I'm talking about a 2/3" betacam replacement -- not a PD-150 type camcorder.

I've got to do some investigating to find out exactly what the client(s) is requireing, but in general, if you were to get a full-sized DV camera today for typical freelance use (cable shows, syndicated TV, corporate stuff, etc.) what format would it be? DVCAM, DVCPRO50, or DVCPRO?

I'll have to admit that I'm pretty ingnorant about these formats because I was hoping to jump straight to a tapeless format. But that appears to be too far off on the horizon, and I can probably make a DV camera pay for itself long before the camera becomes obsolete.

So, I if don't care about investing in gear for the long-run, or what formats are coming on the horizon, or what format is technically the best, what do you suggest?

Has anyone else added a DV camera by sharing lenses, battereies, etc. with your trusty Betacam. I'm looking at something like the HL-DV7 or HL-V79.

I guess the bottom line is that I want to know what (if any) format ex-betacam clients are now asking for instead.

Thanks,
Doug

 

[dhart]

It's been my experience that when a client starts requesting DVCAM they are really talking about a much less expensive form of video production. Which means they don't want to pay for my experience. So I kick them to the kids that practice that "art form" around here.

But on a rare occasion the client actually does want a quality production in the DV format and I need a quality camera. One of the videographers in town purchased a Sony DSR-500 a professional DV format camera, looks and operates like a high end Betacam. Uses 2/3" lens and pro batteries. I rent it from him.

My take is that DV or DVCAM is a dying format and the manufacturers are trying to push everything towards DVPRO-50 (a real 4:2:2 NTSC format). But that's going to take a while or it might never happen (remember Sony SX?). My advise, for what ever it's worth, is to try and rent a DV unit when you need it and save your money for the whatever new professional format finally emerges.

But here's a link to Ikegami which is selling off high end DV camcorders at a steep discount over list Ikegami Camcorder Promo

Good luck.

 

[Thomas]

Doug:

I trust Roger on this one. The Ikegami D7 is the one that people I know who shoot broadcast are buying. There is a guy somewhat near you who has one (last name Douglas). I'll give you his number if you want to talk to him.

Tom

 

[imported_blank]

dhart,
remember Sony SX?

Holy smoke dhart. Take a look at Sony's site. Really!
As of "now" JULY 29th 2003
They sell
3 SX 2/3 inch models
3 HDcam 2/3 models
2 Digi 2/3 inch models
1 IMX 2/3 model
1 DVcam 2/3 inch model
2 Disk based 2/3 inch models
2 2/3 dockables with backs for SX / DVcam / SP

So I know what happened to SX. They are CBS, CNN and they dominate a whole bunch of local markets. too!!!! Not gonna mention international popularity of SX like Canadian nets.

BTW, sony is pushin' IMX - NOT DVCpro50....

---------------------------------
And that's from a far out man kind of guy sayin' off to work....

 

[dhart]

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the Sony SX format. Looks much better than BetacamSP. It's just I've never had a call for shooting SX. I know a lot of news operations and network documentaries use it, but for whatever reason it hasn't made much of a mark in our kind of productions. In the posthouse I use they have an SX VTR which is great for laying off and bouncing video around. But we need to create our duplication masters on BetacamSP or Digibeta because that's what the duplication houses use; no SX.

I think my point was there are many more DV camcorders and VTRs in use today than SX. If Sony has a chance of talking on DV I believe it will be in the IMX format. I suspect Panasonic will drop the prices of DVCPRO 50 to DVCPRO levels to hang on to that important market share. There's not a ton of difference between DVCPRO-50 and IMX although I'm sure the Sonynistas would take exception. I get a few calls for Digibeta, but the producers what to pay Betacam prices so I pass.

 

[Douglas]

Everyone, thanks for the input. Just as I suspected, there isn't a clear, definitive answer on the subject. Too bad. Wouldn't we all be happier if everyone could agree on the next popular format and we could move on. The manufactureres are really shooting themselves in the foot.

I had already seen the Ikegami specials and am considering getting a D7. I guess it's time to call my dealer and see just how good the prices are. If the price is in the $12,000 range I think I can make the numbers work. It's my understanding that with this particular client the 2-person day rate would be the same as for Betacam. The question is, if I take a DV booking, is that an additional day of shooting that month or would I have gotten a call for Betacam that day anyway? I don't want to invest in a new piece of gear that won't actually generate more total bookings per month. 18 months ago we were doing 20-22 days per month and since then it has fallen to about 12-14. I'd like to get those extra 8 days back one way or another. I know DVCAM isn't going to bring in an extra 8 days per month, but it might bring in a few.

Renting a camera is not an option for me. I like to work with my own cameras and my own lenses. The hassle of picking up and returning the camera, checking availability, wondering if it is working right, and the expense of paying for the rental just aren't worth it. I'd rather invest in my own camera and sell it when it is no longer useful to me.

Another option is to get a dockable DVCAM deck and just swap out the BVV-5 on my HL-59 when I need to, but I think the D7 is cheap enough that I might as well just get the whole camera instead.

Decisions. Decisions. Decisions.

 

[HDTV]

My solution to this problem was to buy a Sony DSR-50 DVCAM field deck...about $ 4,000.

I connect it to my 600 with a 26-pin connector, so I'm still recording component video from the camera. This might work for you if you have the back for your Ike that has the 26 pin out.

The DSR-50 also makes a nice feed/record deck for a non linear system if you ever want to get into that.

It's a bit old-school to be walking around with a camera and a deck...but it gets the job done, and will allow you to serve your client's needs with minimal investment.

I've only gotten 1 call for this set-up...most DVCAM clients are looking for PD-150's and don't want to pay appropriate labor costs. I've gotten zero calls for DVCPRO or DVCPRO 50. Nothing for IMX or SX, a few a year for DigiBeta...and a few a year for HD.

 

[Thomas]

Doug:

I think you are on the right track. I contemplated buying the D7 not too long ago...or sharing it with a friend who did a lot of work for WGBH where they, too shoot with the D7. I passed because I thought I was getting caught up in the short term -- I was looking at one job and translating that into more work that might never come. I thought spending 12K on the Ike might be kind of an impulsive move because, like you, I don't want to be renting cameras.

The nice thing about the D7 is that you can use your existing lenses so, for now, all you need to buy is the camera body. But, I would also say that since the circumstances arose that started me thinking about buying the D7, I have not needed the camera. So, buying it wouldn't really have been the best thing to do. If I had a longer term job that required it, then maybe I will revisit the decision.

One thing I thought of afterwards, though, was that I could have used the D7 when the networks ask me for a "lockdown third camera". By recording it onto my BVW-35 (yes, mine still works) I could give them a Beta tape and get a camera rental. At between $350 and $500 a pop, that would help pay the D7 off in good order. But, other than that useage, I have not needed the D7 since I considered buying it.

If you do make the decision to buy, the D7 is, in my mind, the way to go. My friend bought his from B&H. There may also be deals on b-stock D7's because the D7A (I think) has replaced it.

Where is dinosaur on this thread? He's the best equipment guy we have. I'd love to hear his opinion.

 

[dinosaur]

Other than calls for a PD 150 we don't get many requests for a "full blown" DVCam. I have only rented a DSR 570 for two days in the past year. The D7A is a great looking camera and I'm aware there are some inroads this format is making in New England, but not here. In fact I'm probably on the verge of renting a Panasonic 720p Varicam on as needed basis. As much as it "pains" me to use a "Painasonic" camera, 720p is now gaining some traction with some of my national clients. I would much rather use a Sony F900, but its not my choice as to the format they want. SX has been bypassed by the production community. I'm certainly not buying an SX camera to use for only one client like CBS News.

So, it all comes back to what your particular clients will accept. If they can handle DVCam in their edit rooms and you derive enough work from them to amortize that camera, go for it. I'm standing pat with mostly SP until I see some clear dominance in an HD format. I hate having to go out and rent cameras for specific shoots, but now its part of the alphabet soup game we're forced to play for the next few years. Its not worth it to me to spend $50K or even $12K if its going to be obsolete before its paid off.

 

[Sportsguy]

Hey, Douglas...

I'd like to ask you a few questions about the setup on your DV7W...

Could you shoot me an e-mail? My address is in the profile. Thanks!

 

[Douglas]

Sportsguy, I'm getting very close to buying a DV7 but I'm not an owner yet.

Doug

 

[Thomas]

dino:

I like the panasonic Varicam. I have used the F900 on a more extensive basis but the Panasonic feels more like the cameras we are used to and it is more user friendly.

Doug. Good luck. Let us know what you do and how you arived at the decision.

 

[imported_blank]

Hi dhart,
Sorry I misunderstood your remember Sony SX comment.

I thought we are talking about working with new "2/3 inch" cameras in this thread. My point in my previous post was that the maker of SX """currently""" (or as this thread asks- "today") the maker makes nine one piece cameras equipped with 2/3 chips based on the 1/2 inch various betacam formats. That is not a miss-print read nine (9) current one piece models based on the various 1/2 inch betacam format. They only make one (1) 2/3 inch camcorder based on the DVcam format. The other 2/3 cams are disk based or dockables.

Ike 2/3 chip rigs are based on both sony and pansonic DV based formats and IMX disk.

remember Sony SX?
Out of these nine (9) "current" 2/3 ccd beta-based camcorders three (3) are based on betacamSX. Only in beta HD format Sony matches this number = three (3) beta HD camcorders. But Sony makes a betaSX back as well so "currently" there is no other format with as many different models as SX from Sony or IKE. (based on the 2/3 ccd.)

Now I understand what you gentleman are saying. Most of your clients still want/use SP-BETA or DIGI-BETA. I'm not saying to go out and buy a SX if your clients aren't asking -- but gentlemen -- it's a big, big world out there. Surely all these SX machines can't all be at CBS.

SX has been bypassed by the production community
Dino, during the last Iraq war someone was kind enough to provide play-out/edit locations and the majority of them had SX editing and play-out.

Since then things haven't changed much except some play-outs are now offering IMX as well.
http://www.tvz.tv/uplinks/uplinksnow.shtml
and
http://www.tvz.tv/uplinks/futureevents.shtml
If you look at the play-outs/edits you will notice that SX offerings out-number DVcam offerings by a wide margin - especially for edits. It's a big world out there gentlemen.

------------------------------------
And now for my "stickler" quote of the day
April 23, 2003
Mike
Member
Member # 138
(Chicago)
I landed a Beta SX laptop editor at a substantial savings. Now that I've got the decks, I've been able to rent it while on network assignments (it is not uncommon to edit the SP tape onto SX and then feed the SX tape
---------------------------------------
bless you all for putin' up with my rants & were is Mike???

 

[dinosaur]

Ivan,
I refuse to go down this long and winding road again with you. SX may be prevalent in Canada, but its hardly made a tiny dent in production work here.

Surely all these SX machines can't all be at CBS.

In my city, one of the largest TV & Film production centers in the U.S. there are NO post houses or production companies using SX, only CBS News & CNN, for ENG & in house. I have NEVER received a call from a producer asking for SX, even from CBS News. Also, I have yet to see an independent sat truck with an SX feed deck in it.

during the last Iraq war someone was kind enough to provide play-out/edit locations and the majority of them had SX editing and play-out.

Only because CBS News, CNN & CBC or subcontractors brought the decks and were participating in the pools.

Given all the deeply discounted SX cameras I'm seeing on the market. I really think Sony is moving on to something else. This is all I'm going to say regarding your insistance that everyone has mistakenly overlooked buying your beloved SX & IMX. When they dominate the marketshare of production work, call me, I'll buy one then.

 

[Douglas]

Tom, I've placed an order for a b-stock HL-DV7W. I'm still not 100% sure if makes good financial sense, and I almost didn't do it, but then the lure of having a new toy pushed me over the edge. I'm getting it for under $10,000 so that's not too bad for a camera that looks like it might perform nearly as well as my HL-59W.

For now I'm going to share lenses, batteries, filters, ets. with my two Betacams to keep costs down. I'm thinking of selling one of the Betacams anyway.

I was very close to going with the HL-DV5 instead, but decided not to go for it. The main difference between the DV5 and DV7 is that the DV5 can't do wide screen. Well, I don't know about you but the promise of shooting in 16x9 is not materializing for me. I get about 2 calls a year for 16x9 and I don't see that changing soon. So my option was to save about $1000 and get a 4x3 only camera instead. Roger Macie happened to call me today about something else and so I brought up the subject of these cameras. He says that the DV7 is 16x9 native so it actually gets outperformed by the DV5 when used in the 4x3 mode. But, once again the lure of shooting in 16x9, plus not wanting to take a backseat to anyone on camera models forced me into springing for the DV7. The performance difference is probably negligble anyway.

So, I still see the trusty Betacam as the meat and potatoes camera for the future, but maybe the DV will open some new doors (or keep some doors open as clients change formats).

The ironic thing is that lately I've turneded down several DigiBeta shoots because I don't want to hassle with renting the gear. But making that investment would be a little too hard to swallow.

 

[cameragod]

We bought two Sony DXC- D35WSP cameras (switch able 16:9 and 4:3 format)
With two Sony PVV3 dockable Beta SP recorders but also one Dvcam back.
With the right set up the head gives beautiful pictures on ether format. The bulk of our stuff is still SP but slowly the Dvcam shoots are picking up. The News stations here are all SX but backward combatable with SP.

 

[quicklad]

I also have the D-35ws w/ Beta SP and DVCam backs.

I bought the DVCam back used off ebay and it sat for 6 months. In the last month it has paid off half of what I bought it for.

I have never had any calls for SX ever...

Douglas - good choice on the Ike 7w - it looks great. When I bought my D-35ws it was for my clients who still use SP

enjoy,
Eric

 

[Nino]

Rumors at ESPN are that for field aquisition BetaSP will stay put for at least another two or three years (I love these guys). The format is still working very well and as long as it can be converted to whatever format is needed there's no rush in making any changes. Matching cameras in the field is still more important than changing formats. Every shooter in this are have 600 tuned by Roger and they all closely match. Also don't forget that most jobs are uplinked either live or live to tape so at the other end they have the freedom to do whatever is needed. But I keep filling my penny jars.

 

[Thomas]

Doug, I completely understand the mental gymnastics you are going through. In the end, $10,000 is not all that much money for a camera that will have a solid resale if you find you have gone down the wrong road. My bet is that it will gradually become a useful tool that will give you options in the future.

Hey, I recently spent $5500 on a G4 with the 23" cinema display because I want to learn Final Cut Pro editing. Will I make money with that? Maybe never. But staying pat just seems wrong.

Good luck Doug.

One thing on the D35s...last month Sony ran a special on 14 of them at their b-stock site. They sold them for $3500. They were gone in minutes.

 

[imported_blank]

I'll leave this thread in a minute but I must clear up some confusion.

I have never ever insisted that people should go out and purchase my beloved SX or IMX camcorder. In fact I have pointed out similar to Nino's statement.

It is a well known fact that just about every beta deck sold within the last 8 years plays back SP/SX and now the J-series field decks play back all beta legacy formats. I have mentioned in the past that it may be a better idea to hang on to a good working SP cam and purchase a J-Series IMX deck for feeds or b-stock SX editor like members Mike and WTV have done. To me that sounds more reasonable then a new cam, especially a non beta legacy cam.

Just thought I'd add to the discussion why I think SX isn't dead. That is all I was pointing out. I think the availability of 2/3 inch cameras proved that nicely.

Sure the play-outs are controlled by broadcasters like CBS - CNN - CBC, that's like 30 percent representation in North America - I'm sure the NZ broadcasters are represented there as well, like CG mentioned "The News stations here [NZ] are all SX but backward combatable with SP". I think network shooter WTV in Africa mentioned buying an SX deck to make life easier (if not necessary) I doubt that WTV and Mike out of Chicago are the only ones to do this.

No offence but the world doesn't revolve just around US American magazine shows. Recently ALL NFL teams purchased ALL SX gear to be used starting for the 04 season. COMCAST sports and others have also done this move to SX. This didn't happen in 1996 when SX first came out - this is happening RIGHT NOW!

Year 2003
http://bssc.sel.sony .com/Professional/markets/sports/files/nfl_betacam.pdf
Sony lines up $22M in NFL sales
$700,000 per team (22 million total) worth of gear for the 2004 season!!!! Not exactly a Sony sponsored freebie...

year 2002
http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/2170
SONY’S BETACAM SX EQUIPMENT IS A SLAM DUNK FOR COMCAST ...

Not to mentioned that TODAY in the year 2003 just about every reality network show is shot on IMX. (except big brother which was shot on betaSX)

At least four German networks have moved to IMX camcorders before most North Americans even knew what IMX is. NDR (Germany) recently purchased seventy eight (78) IMX camcorders. Asian broadcasting is dominated by SX and IMX.

Sony does not revolve just around US NET MAG programming. Find out what kind of machines NBC popped the field tapes shot in 2002 Salt Lake City. Any bets that the SP shot tapes were popped into IMX VTRs?

I was simply pointing out that SX is NOT dead and that IMX is picking up. I think the numbers confirm this.

I don't deal directly with the United States Networks - As for a few houses I dealt with in the United States - for the most part they really don't care what "beta" format I send the stuff in - as long as its BETA, not once have they asked for DVcam or DVCpro or miniDV. They know that sometimes its easier for "ME" to get a hold of SX then SP and I have been told numerous times that they ALWAYS edit the stuff in digital form thus their feed or edit decks handle both SP and SX material in the exact same way. Los Angeles based houses in case you're wondering.

As for my immediate television area Vancouver and Seattle - well again it's pretty well ALL SX dominated -- both in Seattle and at home, especially in Seattle....

Sorry if I have offended or mistakenly misinformed anyone but Sony does not revolve just around US mag programming.

Oh Yeah, the D35 cameras rock !!!!! Especially with an SX on the back of them babies