Enhanced DSLR - Your opinion?

dhart

Well-known member
Chrosziel is a long time maker of matte boxes for both film and video. So this DSLR market is a natural for them. Since every kid with $2-K plus wants to become a "filmmaker" today, they have adapted one of their matte boxes for the market.

Of course one major drawback of using an DSLR is it is nearly impossible to hand hold it for more than a brief period of time. Hence all these weird "Rube Goldberg" (who ever he was :) contraptions. These shoulder mounts also solve the problem of where you're going to put the focus knob. I dunno. By the time you rig one of these units up, you could have a "real" video camera that is more ergonomic, compact, costs less and doesn't make you look like a dork holding it up to your eye.
 

AlexLucas

Well-known member
4/3 camera coming. Don't touch it.

Already, Panasonic is coming out with a 4/3 inch camera, which is roughly the same dimensions as a 35mm target. It will use film lenses, it will have XLR inputs. It will probably shoot on SDHC cards... and probably be a Red killer.

It's been going this way for a while. That's why I've been trying to dump off my personal XHA1 for a while now. I need to get the money out on that and hold for another 18 months, when the new standard camera comes out, blows down the whole professional market, and starts all over again.

It will be, effectively, the 'poor man's Red.'
And it will be something that bridges film and video.
People will be using it for real productions, independent films, and your good Discovery Channel fare.

Currently, I wouldn't touch any new incarnation, either an EX3, a Red, or a 5DmII at any time right now. I'm never going to buy some goofy Zacuto rig to make a 5D into a frankencamera. It's insane to do that.

Something is coming.
It will be a combo camera, and it will have balanced audio, 35 spherical lenses, a built in viewfinder, and it will record to regular flash media. The first one who finally takes this staring contest down, and does it, will win hands down, much in the same way that there is only one smart phone in the world, and it belongs to Apple, because they MADE the market.

The Canon video and Canon Stills departments, who never spoke together, are now having meetings. Scuttlebutt is flying. Canon will probably do this, because it will hook a whole new generation of filmmakers and corporate videographers on buying Canon lenses... thus making Canon's 'bread and butter' more money.
If you don't think it's going to happen, think about the money that corporations, regular camera corporations that don't have a dog in the video market like Sony can make ground on them. In other words, the small film and semi-professional market is about four times as large as the pro market. There is money there.

Canon is the likeliest one to win this, now that they have the sensor, the viewfinder tech, and the lenses to pull this off, already in a patented format.
I'm not buying another thing for a year until this camera comes out.
 

adam

Well-known member
The main problem with the 3rd party rigs for the 5DMII is that the rigs cost more than the camera itself. There something fundamentally wrong when you can buy the camera and a lens for less than the adapter for your basic video shooting needs.

Canon's newest prosumer rig the 305 uses CF cards which is a big deal in my mind. The ability to hand off relatively inexpensive media with common hardware interfaces is critical. They've got the optics and the right media but I've heard the same thing that there are internal struggles and also the dicey footing with their optics customers/camcorder competition.

Alex, I have a HVR V1U (admittedly not as nice as XHA1) and would love to sell it off but I started paddling too late and the wave is on top of me. At this point I have to reconcile that it's just good to have a tape camera that will probably do as much time as a VTR as a recording device in the next couple of years.

I'm not convinced owning a 5D is a bad thing unless you're doing ENG. As a production camera it's got some unique benefits. Two that jump to mind are the ability to "steal" shots the way the SNL crew famously has (i.e. incognito operation) and the existing inventory of lenses that you can borrow/rent/buy. One more thing that just popped into my head is the massive knowledge base that now exist for the 5D. There's something to be said for a product that has a lot of loyal users. It's apples to oranges but a passionate knowledge base was a healthy thing for FCP in it's early days.
 

zac love

Well-known member
Already, Panasonic is coming out with a 4/3 inch camera, which is roughly the same dimensions as a 35mm target.
If by "roughly" you mean about 1/4 the surface area, then you're correct. But while 4/3" is much larger than 2/3" it is much smaller than a 8 perf full 35mm frame.

Though your point is very much one I share.

Why buy a $2,500 still camera DSLR that was hacked for video & needs another $3k of mic adapters & crazy mounts? When you can wait a while & get one of the cameras Sony or Panasonic showed off at NAB which have larger sensors & "crazy" things like XLR inputs & headphone jacks.

I think once those start hitting the stores, fewer DSLRs will be purchased by motion picture guys.
 

SimonW

Well-known member
AFAIK the 4/3 size is the same as S35mm. Don't forget that Sony are also releasing a similar camera.

One of the things these cameras will have to do is to replicate the amazing low light performance of the DSLRs.
 

Ken

Well-known member
At NAB I saw a resolution chart that had been shot by a 5D, a Sony F23 and a Red. It had been spliced together so you could see the 3 charts together. The 5D showed about 1K of resolution. The F23 had just under 2K and the Red just under 4K of resolution. It was pretty eye opening. The 5D looked awful compared to the professional moving picture cameras. That being said... it's all in how you are going to use the tool. I was blown away by the images the GoPro people were showing at their booth (I own 2 now).
 

Tippster

The Fly on the Wall
At NAB I saw a resolution chart that had been shot by a 5D, a Sony F23 and a Red.
First of all what are these "resolutions you're talking about? 1000 what? Lines? Hey - that's broadcast HD!

Now did they put the price, including glass, under that chart? The fact that it takes a $200k camera to get 2x the rez of a $3k camera is significant, IMHO, especially since the final product will only be seen in the 1080p resolution.
 

2000lux

Well-known member
What bugs me about what I've seen so far from Panasonic and Sony is that they are making the cameras to work just with prime lenses. Perhaps some one like Fuji, Canon, Nikon, or Anginoux will make an ENG style lens for these cameras that one person can operate.

I mainly work as a one man band with a producer meaning I do all the camerawork, lighting, and sound, and the producer tells me to hurry up. ;)

I need a camera that I can operate by my self, hand held and on sticks, with at least two XLR inputs, a crisp HD viewfinder with peaking and zebras, and all the other stuff we expect on a broadcast camera.

Disposable media would be a huge plus. By that I man some thing I can hand to the client at the end of the day be it SDHC cards, a DVD, CF cards, or some thing else. I'm not a fan of P2 or SxS cards. Tapeless media has only made my life more complicated and added more time to productions for me.
 
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Douglas

Well-known member
Disposable media would be a huge plus. By that I man some thing I can hand to the client at the end of the day be it SDHC cards, a DVD, CF cards, or some thing else. I'm not a fan of P2 or SxS cards. Tapeless media has only made my life more complicated and added more time to productions for me.
That's why XDCAM optical is so great. Tapeless may have made your life more complicated, but it has made mine soooooo much easier, more efficient, and safer. Granted we have different clients and different needs, but you could not pay me to go back to any kind of tape. SxS and CF cards are okay for some of my needs, but there's nothing like XDCAM optical if you want to work efficiently and spend less time dicking around with stuff. It's got all the things that were good about tape, with none of the bad.

Rock solid, fast, and easy. What more do you need?

Okay, some wise ass is going to say "I need clients to ask for it." Good point. But if you are in a position to dictate what format/media gets used, or at least make the effort to educate the client, you will be rewarded. With the purchase of a $2500 drive, any client can be enjoying the benefits of optical. I even bought a drive for one client and it paid for itself in no time at all.
 

zac love

Well-known member
Disposable media would be a huge plus. By that I man some thing I can hand to the client at the end of the day
This is the thing I love most about my Z7U that it shoots onto tape & CF at the same time. All the advantages of tapeless workflow & disposable media rolled up into one camera.

I now hate capturing from tape, but love the reliability, cost & availability of HDV media (though the codec sucks, but we don't need to hijack this thread). Compact Flash cards are also dirt cheap compared to SxS or P2, I got a Lexar FW800 card reader for $40 which means super fast log & transfer, and USB card readers cost less than a fast food lunch.

Solid state media is getting cheaper, so it won't be long until it is cheap enough to be disposable, but until then I'm going to wish more cameras were built with this workflow in mind.
 

Douglas

Well-known member
TAll the advantages of tapeless workflow & disposable media rolled up into one camera.
I have to disagree with "all the advantages" of a tapeless workflow. I had a Z7U for a few months and it doesn't have anywhere near the options and features that other tapeless cameras (such as the EX1/3, F3xx, F800/700) offer. It's better than tape, but but certainly does not have ALL the advantages of a tapeless workflow.

What advantages are missing on the Z7U? Custom clip naming, instant clip delete, one-touch clip playback, thumbnail views, dual card slots with hot swapping, lower bit rate, one-frame interval recording, and overcranking just to name a few.

I'm not saying the Z7U isn't the right camera for the right person, but it's going overboard to say it offers all the advantages to other cameras or is even close to being on the same level as the EX1/3 if you measure performance and features.

Just food for thought.
 

focusthis

Well-known member
Digipunk

I don't know why I thought of that word when looking at the video MR linked to.

I understand that the aftermarket accessories attached to that camera are intended to get the most out of it's capabilities, but it just looks intentionally complicated and that it's function is to only appear functional. I agree with others here that if/when these still manufacturers want to have their video department step up, it won't look anything like that 7d.

Why is it that so much attention has been paid to equipment that tries to capture moving images from an otherwise still camera? Is it the demand from the professionals in still imagery? As a news Photog, there have been many times that I'd like a really good still from the 30 images I capture each second. As a father, there have been fewer times I'd appreciate video from the still camera I'm using. What the man in MR's clip demonstrated looks a thousand times more complicated than a TV camera with better guts.
 

SimonW

Well-known member
Why is it that so much attention has been paid to equipment that tries to capture moving images from an otherwise still camera?
Shallow depth of field is really the only reason. That and the really good low light capabilities. Unfortunately many see that as the be all and end all. I am utterly, utterly astounded at the people who say that the aliasing on the 5D isn't an issue and barely noticeable! I'm also utterly astounded at the number of people who are somehow now selling themselves at inflated dayrates with the job title "cinematographer" just because they have one of these DSLRs. So now we have "Wedding Cinematographers" as opposed to "Wedding Videographer".

It's all immensely silly. There is one reason, and one reason only, why I would like one. And that's for the outdoor sports and activities I am shooting a lot of now. I could easily take a DSLR into the middle of nowhere without the weight of a larger camera, and water sealed cases are cheap for them, so it would be easy to go out near the surf to get shots of surfing etc.

But for general shooting they are ridiculous. Especially when rigged up with silly Zacuto contraptions that will be utterly worthless once a true video camera with similar sensor size and performance comes along.
 

eb

Well-known member
Already, Panasonic is coming out with a 4/3 inch camera, which is roughly the same dimensions as a 35mm target. It will use film lenses, it will have XLR inputs. It will probably shoot on SDHC cards... and probably be a Red killer.

It's been going this way for a while. That's why I've been trying to dump off my personal XHA1 for a while now. I need to get the money out on that and hold for another 18 months, when the new standard camera comes out, blows down the whole professional market, and starts all over again.

It will be, effectively, the 'poor man's Red.'
And it will be something that bridges film and video.
People will be using it for real productions, independent films, and your good Discovery Channel fare.

Currently, I wouldn't touch any new incarnation, either an EX3, a Red, or a 5DmII at any time right now. I'm never going to buy some goofy Zacuto rig to make a 5D into a frankencamera. It's insane to do that.

Something is coming.
It will be a combo camera, and it will have balanced audio, 35 spherical lenses, a built in viewfinder, and it will record to regular flash media. The first one who finally takes this staring contest down, and does it, will win hands down, much in the same way that there is only one smart phone in the world, and it belongs to Apple, because they MADE the market.

The Canon video and Canon Stills departments, who never spoke together, are now having meetings. Scuttlebutt is flying. Canon will probably do this, because it will hook a whole new generation of filmmakers and corporate videographers on buying Canon lenses... thus making Canon's 'bread and butter' more money.
If you don't think it's going to happen, think about the money that corporations, regular camera corporations that don't have a dog in the video market like Sony can make ground on them. In other words, the small film and semi-professional market is about four times as large as the pro market. There is money there.

Canon is the likeliest one to win this, now that they have the sensor, the viewfinder tech, and the lenses to pull this off, already in a patented format.
I'm not buying another thing for a year until this camera comes out.
Alex,

Great advice. I am a bit confused... you end by saying "I'm not buying... until THIS camera comes out." You were raving about both the Canon products and the Pany. So between those two, which is the "one." Thanks.

Also, for everyone, there are a number of makes and models... being disussed. Sometimes I know which is which...sometimes I don't. Please preface model numbers with the make if possible, unless its obvious. Thanks again.
 

hpmoon

PRO user
Joining the discussion here as a new member. I've been really pleased with the new Sony NEX-VG10; here's my first trial run from last week:

http://vimeo.com/groups/nexvg10/videos/15072463

Basically, you get an almost-full-frame sensor (APS-C) with a camcorder form factor and pretty decent stock glass. Especially for broadcast applications, the killer add (compared to D-SLRs) is it can record indefinitely rather than in 10-minute increments, and does not overheat as such. The built-in boom microphone is a game-changer (using Dolby Digital Stereo Creator and a quad-array for stereo imaging). And an impressive line-up of new lenses, including Zeiss, were just announced this week at Photokina.

I set up a User Group dedicated to the device at http://www.nexvg10.info.

There is much complaining about the lack of 24p and XLR inputs with manual audio control, but this product inhabits that middle ground that simply doesn't call for those features. Let me know what you think.
 

Todio

Well-known member
Something is coming.
It will be a combo camera, and it will have balanced audio
As for sound, Beachtek just came out with the Beachtek DSLR which allows for 2 XLR inputs via a 1/8" mini jack that defeats the AGC. Screws into the tripod mount hole. There's another thing to add to the Frankenrig.

Oh Lord, when oh when will these manufacturers realize that SOUND is just as important as the picture?

Puh-Leeze, do either one of these two things:
(a) commit to having sound on your camera and make it good. Consult with real, actual, working soundmen in the field who will tell you that you need balanced (5D, 7D, a myriad of others), full-size XLR inputs (hello Red?), volume pots (hello Red again?), audio not set on AGC (again with the 5D and 7D monstrosities) and cruddy, hissy pre-amps (Sony PD150 and others). I will VOLUNTEER to consult.

or

(b) If you think your new camera is the shizzle, commit to having NO SOUND INPUT AT ALL and allow us soundmen to do double-system which gives you better sound anyway but it must have TC in and out on BNC connectors not lemo (hello Red) and a camera mic for those productions that want to sync to a scratch mix with pluraleyes http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html or similar. I would accept one sound input for a scratch feed as long as it was only in mono and had a line/mic switch (it could even be a mini jack and perhaps it should only record MP3 quality! Hey, it's only 'scratch' right? They could use it for transcription!)

I'm insisting on double-system now for all shoots involving Red or 5-7D cameras and am sticking to my guns even if it means losing gigs. I'm not putting MY day-rate on the line for someone else's camera's inferior sound quality! Even still I sometimes get caught by showing up and, oops, there's a Red. That's why I always carry an H4 recorder with me and roll even if I'm tethered to a Red. Last week I got a call that the sound was missing on some files shot on a Red (!) Luckily, I had the backup. (turns out it was an issue in the transfer, my sound was there, but it just goes to show you... unreliable)
 

AlexLucas

Well-known member
Update:
As you know, the 4/3rds Panny camera is coming.
And I just got my hands on a 7D, to see what all the good stuff was about. Currently, I'm not really that impressed.

A lot, and I do mean a lot, of people are using this 5D/7D tech, and after dealing with it for a few hours, I am NOT ready to commit money to it.

Couple of reasons.
1. The audio. We'll not talk further about this. It's terrible. It has to be dual worked, and once again, it's terrible. If there aren't any balanced XLR or 1/4" jacks, then screw it.

2. The Jello effect. That's horrible. People who are using this camera, in any handheld situation whatsoever, are going to have what I call, 'unusable handheld jaggies.' That sensor was not designed for moving around at a usable framerate, and when I see some of the stuff that is on vimeo, without a tripod, or smoothing software, I almost cannot see detail. It's actually shocking that people think that it is superior.
I've not taken the footage and played with it in a NLE, but I hear that color correction is a nightmare.

I guess there is a nice alternative 'speherical' look that comes with a DSLR, but as of right now, I got my hands on one, and I'm dissapointed with the video in ways that are hard to explain.
It looks good locked down. I wouldn't take it off a tripod, or move it in any way other than that. One of my friends shot a video with it handheld, and I was getting a serious amount of issue with my eyes watching it. Everyone wants to shoot in 24p because 'that's film!' and they want a film look. Screwed up jaggies, with the 24p film, replayed on vimeo or youtube looks beyond crappy, it looks like your DP is an idiot.

When you're watching a Philip Bloom video, you're seeing what he's determined to be the best effect of these cameras. He doesn't move, he does time lapse, and you're seeing the image on the web.
And that's about it.
The best it does.
 
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