Double system sound recording

[tubecamera-or-bust]

I'd like to hear from folks as to how many are recording double system sound for their shoots now.

1) Are you recording two channels (boom/lav) with Time Code in addition to hard wired to the camera as standard on all shoots?

2) Are you being asked to do so or are you doing so on your own as a back up for any issues with camera sound later?

3) As to back up recording, how many times has it been needed do you know?

4) What is your recorder of choice for this?

Thanks!

 

[The Thing on The Sticks]

I do it for the sound part of my business. Usually just for DSLR shoots and once when the client requested it as a backup but generally speaking it adds a whole other level of hassle to the workflow. Now if I am doing a reality deal with 4 or more people wearing a lav, and a boom thrown in for the occasional interaction then I usually push for a multi track recorder and record them all as iso channels and will feed a mix channel to the cameras for sync. But you are getting into a whole other budget level than what we are talking about in this board for the most part.

 

[Necktie Boy]

For my shooting, direct to the camera via a 302. No backup. With the 302, I can record a backup to a recorder, if asked.

From my reading, only reality show that have a high number of cast are double system. The tracks are ISO's, so that Post can tweak the audio. A mix guide is sent to the camera. but the recorder is jammed to the camera for TC.

Double system if shooting with a DSLR. No TC since DSLR don't do TC.

The only reason I would ask for a back up recorder is if a wireless hop to camera is used, and that is a producer call, or the producer wants transcribe the shoot. If hard wired, the sound should be monitored at the camera. No real need for backup.

Adding a backup audio recorder is extra charge.

It should be the producer's call, and not the shooter, nor the soundmixer.

The popular recorder is a H4, but any small card recorder will do with the correct cable input. If you want TC and more that 2 tracks, then you are looking at about $1000 bucks and up to do that. Sure, you can rent one, but more trouble if not using a soundman.

If you are planning to record backup audio without a mixer, you can, but the recorder would be small, and a cable would be made to record audio and if you wanted, TC.

 

[Starman]

I'd like to hear from folks as to how many are recording double system sound for their shoots now.

1) Are you recording two channels (boom/lav) with Time Code in addition to hard wired to the camera as standard on all shoots?

*It depends, If I have my two track recorder, I boom on one channel and one or two lavs on the other channel. I only use the recorder if the producer asks for it, (always been asked on DSLR shoots), or wireless hops are sent to camera, DSLR or ENG type. If I need more tracks, I break out the Sounddevices 664.

2) Are you being asked to do so or are you doing so on your own as a back up for any issues with camera sound later?

*I only provide a backup if asked.

3) As to back up recording, how many times has it been needed do you know?

*Only when post is relying on the recorder for sound, usually DSLR or reality shoots

4) What is your recorder of choice for this?

*For simple shoots, say a boom and two lavs, a TASCAM HD-P2 with a Shure FP33 on the front end for pre-amps, and usually boom on one channel and the one or two lavs on the other channel. Usually send a wireless hop to camera or DSLR for reference, and if a non-DSLR shoot, I jam my slate to the camera and then the recorder to the slate, since it has the most stable timecode. The TASCAM is a very good recorder for the money and the sound quality is excellent.

On more complex shoots, it is a Sounddevices 664, jammed to recorder or camera (prefer recorder as master, since more stable timecode), and ISO tracks for each lav or boom. A great piece of gear since the mixer and recorder are integrated.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

*For simple shoots, say a boom and two lavs, a TASCAM HD-P2 with a Shure FP33 on the front end for pre-amps...

Can I ask you...

Are you able to let that recorder run on it's own TC generator after locking to the camera and for how long can it go and still be in sync?

 

[Starman]

Can I ask you...

Are you able to let that recorder run on it's own TC generator after locking to the camera and for how long can it go and still be in sync?

The TASCAM doesn't have an internal TC generator, if unplugged it will drift eventually, the clock just isn't that stable. I usually keep it jammed to my smart slate and keep it in my bag, since the slate is very accurate, or I just keep the TC cable plugged into the camera via the XLR-BNC cable.

So, if you don't have a slate or timecode generator to keep in your sound bag, you would have to buy a Sounddevices 702T, which is the least expensive recorder with a TC generator. Or, I would suggest the 664, which can record more tracks.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

I've always been the kind of person to look for (cheaper) alternatives to any process and I've been working on something regarding double system audio-for-video that others may be interested in.

I'm able to take my $200 Zoom H4N digital recorder and record stereo audio PLUS time code from the camera (or a generator or slate or even an iPad running Movie Slate) and do two things that are becoming "must haves" for my clients, at least.

1) Provide an industry standard BWF (broadcast wave format) audio file containing two channels of audio plus metadata (imbedded) time code. This file format is exactly the same as would be output from a SoundDevices or Zaxcom recorder.

2) Provide a stereo .mp3 audio file containing one channel of audio and LTC (longitudinal time code or audio time code) for the transcription service to use.

The conversions are all done with software that, taken together, will run you $300 at most.

Add in an (Apple reconditioned) iPad and the MovieSlate app with time code plug in and that will add $400 to the package.

So, for $900 you have a 4 track recorder (2 audio, 2 redundant TC), a smart slate that also logs and outputs reports from the field, a time code generator (via the slate app), and the ability to supply BOTH industry standard BWF wave audio and mp3 transcription files.

All this while still using the little Zoom in the field. It adds little weight to your sound kit, is easy as pie to use and, from my experience working with it, performs flawlessly... it never crashes or hangs up.

If there are others out there who are interested in learning more I will consider putting this all together on a web page.

Let me know : )

 

[Necktie Boy]

How are you getting TC on the H4? Since it can only has two inputs? There isn't a TC track on the recorder? Did you do one of the hacks to be able to input 4 mics? And if you do it that way, the TC isn't embedded, it an audio track. How do you embed the TC?

Tell me more?

 

[Necktie Boy]

So, you are not running a mixer in front of the H4? Most say the mic amp in the H4 are not the best. And saying it compares to s Sound Device or Zaxcom recorder is not very true.

 

[Starman]

You cannot successfully use an iphone or an ipad for keeping timecode, the clock isn't nearly accurate enough. If you use an ipad or iphone, timecode will eventually drift out of sync and will be completely useless.

You have to have a smart slate with an accurate clock or a timecode generator, such as timecode buddy or the Denecke SB-T timecode generator. I have to do this with my TASCAM to stay in sync, or I use the built in generator in my Sounddevices 664, which has a very accurate clock.

Also, I don't know how the circuit boards are configured in the Zoom H4N, but there is a possibility of bleed from the timecode track onto the other tracks if it is wired a certain way. This has been documented in some recorders. Again, I am not sure about the Zoom.

Additionally, an H4N will not give you the excellent audio quality you might expect without a good preamp on the front end, ideally a mixer designed specifically for location sound.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

How are you getting TC on the H4?

It's in the name. Zoom H4N. It records four tracks!

And if you do it that way, the TC isn't embedded, it';s an audio track. How do you embed the TC?

Converted with software.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

So, you are not running a mixer in front of the H4? Most say the mic amp in the H4 are not the best. And saying it compares to s Sound Device or Zaxcom recorder is not very true.

I own a Cooper Sound C-104 mixer and that's what I'm using for the "front end". Cannot get much quieter than that. It was the basis for the mixers made by Sound Devices.

What I said was the BWF (broadcast wave format) audio files were identical to that of the Sound Device or Zaxcom recorders. You can argue about the sound but in the end I'm not sure it will make any difference for television. Certainly not $2200 different.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

You cannot successfully use an iphone or an ipad for keeping timecode, the clock isn't nearly accurate enough. If you use an ipad or iphone, timecode will eventually drift out of sync and will be completely useless.

You should read the test report for the Movie Slate. Done by a third party and it might surprise you. I did me.

Also, I don't know how the circuit boards are configured in the Zoom H4N, but there is a possibility of bleed from the timecode track onto the other tracks if it is wired a certain way.

If you terminate the time code's coax cable into 75 ohms at the recorder side you will get TC bleed. Easy enough to avoid doing and not necessary for short cable runs anyway. I get no TC bleed anywhere.

Additionally, an H4N will not give you the excellent audio quality you might expect without a good preamp on the front end, ideally a mixer designed specifically for location sound.

Yes, I agree and as I stated above I use my Cooper Sound CS-104 mixer to drive the Zoom at line level (+4db). It sounds fantastic. You are running at the same audio data rate (24bit, 48Khz.) as that of the Sony F-800 HD XDCAM in the HD422 mode. Would sound even better if shooting only HD, which is 16 bit.

 

[Starman]

Interesting. I can't imagine the clock not drifting. The only way I can see this as a successful jam is a wi-fi timecode buddy, so that it's constantly getting a signal. This article also had complaints:
http://www.trewaudio.com/audioflow/2011/01/14/syncing-feeling/

another interesting discussion:
http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/6015-ipad-movie-slate-hd-apps-ver22/

 

[Necktie Boy]

You left out the Cooper. That was an important fact. The H4n does record 4 tracks, but can only input two at time. It only has two inputs? I know that you can punch in. How do you get the 4 track to record all at one without using the built in mic's?

You did say you give a track for TC? Not up to speed on which software would embed TC. So, really not truly a recorder that can do TC directly on a TC track.

 

[Necktie Boy]

Tubecamera-or-bust,

Not trying to be a pain in the neck, but you do leave out important information that is required. Since you are giving us bits and pieces, I will try to fill in the gaps..

If I read correctly, the H4n will record 4 tracks, Input 1 and 2, and an eternal mic via the 3.5 stereo plug. If I read correctly, the last firmware allows all track levels to be adjusted individually. But some say only the external inputs, not the stereo mic input.
Maybe you can clear that up.

Tell us how you set up the H4n to take 2 tracks of audio and a two TC tracks.

Second the sound quality isn't as great as we think. I came across a test that said that a old DAT had better sound. But he said was good enough for video

The Zoom H4n doesn't look very good when measured, which is probably why Zoom doesn't specify anything about audio performance.
You won't hear any of these audio defects when used as intended, but it's sad that any decent 44.1/16-bit DAT recorder of 20 years ago still can run rings around the "96/24-bit" Zoom H4n technically.

All measurements were made as powered by two Sanyo AA Eneloop. The advantage of this is complete isolation as compared to using USB or an AC adapter.

I used a $50,000 Rhode & Schwarz UPL audio analyzer to perform these measurements.

So, the sound isn't near a Sound Devices or Zaxcom recorder. Also, not a good a PDW-800.

About the Movie Slate App...

According to their site, if jammed, to stand alone timecode generator or timecode buddy, it will keep within 2 frames. So, if you are using one camera, and jam from the camera, it should be okay, but only as good as the camera it's jammed to. If more that one camera is used, all bets are off. Two frames isn't bad. It's about the same for a non TC recorder that runs for an hour.

I do agree with Starman that a clock in an iPad is not accurate enough. The sound board that Star and I read say no to iPads for TC. Most use the Movie Slate App for reports, but none use as the master TC. You may consider them old school, but they said pro equipment for pro work.

Also, you are misleading us that the recorder will do a BFW and MP3 at the same time. You are using software to convert that. Many transcribe companies can take a BFW, now a days. I think they are a few softwares that will convert a BFW to MP3 with TC on one track for free or very cheap.

Another fact from the boys from the sound board is that the H4n can't take a +4 signal. It's too hot. The line level is only available via the 1/4 plugs, not the XLR's. And those are not made to take an instrument level.

Finally, you can get a TASCAM HD-P2 for about $700 bucks. Yes, it's a two track recorder with embedded TC, but you mention that you only use two track for audio, and the other two for TC. Buy the Movie Slate App for your phone. Buy the cable to jam Movie Slate from the camera or TC source.

You have true pro system for under $900 bucks. The only extra work would be to convert a file to MP3. With $150 bucks, you can get a small recorder with the correct cable to record a MP3 and TC. Again, that is an extra charge. A few jobs, and it would cover the cost of the recorder and cable.

The sound board that Star and I read is made up a soundmixers that do film, television, and commercial sound. Yes, some have all the goodies, but some do use H4n for backup recording. It is not their main recorder. It's for bag use when the producer doesn't want to pay for a two track Sound Device with TC. The site has good information about field recording. The ones that use the H4n don't input TC two tracks of sound at the same time. They rather use a pro unit.

I would link you to the user group, but they are sort of private.

I am not a sound expert as Starman, He does production sound, and has the pro equipment.

As the saying goes, you paid for what you get.

 

[Douglas]

Necktie Boy, great post.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

Interesting. I can't imagine the clock not drifting.

The article by Trew Audio stated it was two frames off the Deneke TS-3 slate after 2 hours. If that bothers you then simply jam the slate more often from the camera or connect a cable direct. You already have a cable to the Zoom so not that big a deal if doing interviews all day. Then you'll have perfect sync.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

The H4n does record 4 tracks, but can only input two at time. It only has two inputs? I know that you can punch in. How do you get the 4 track to record all at one without using the built in mic's?

On the back of the Zoom is a stereo 1/8" phone jack. Connecting the cable from the TC output on the camera disconnects the internal mic giving you access to tracks 3 and 4.

Both channels receive the same TC signal for redundancy. The recording gains controlled together by the +- on the side of the recorder,

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

The Zoom H4n doesn't look very good when measured... I used a $50,000 Rhode & Schwarz UPL audio analyzer to perform these measurements.... So, the sound isn't near a Sound Devices or Zaxcom recorder.

Did he say $50,000? Got to get me one of those. Again, I did not say the Zoom produced sound equal to the SD or Zaxcom. I said the BWF files would be the same. They would read the same in post RE: time code "time stamp" imbedded in the file.

BTW: Did they test the SD or the Zaxcom in that article?

Also, you are misleading us that the recorder will do a BFW and MP3 at the same time.

I never stated that. I said it requires software to convert. If the transcription service will accept BWF then that's one less step for you. If they require stereo wave or mp3 (TC on the left, audio on the right) it's a simple matter to remap the tracks and convert. The options are always there.

As the saying goes, you paid for what you get.

I'm not opposed to you spending your hard earned money on equipment you may not need. I'm only opposed to my doing it : )