Double system sound recording

[Necktie Boy]

Tubecamera-or-bust.

Thanks for telling us how you are recording with the H4n.

Most sound people don't input TC the way you do. Most who have H4n used for low cost DSLR audio, backup without TC, or feed one channel TC and the second channel mix audio. Those who feed it TC via an input for Transcribing Services.(MP3 file) Most Soundmixers go with the latter workflow since no extra time is require for conversion. Just e-mail to the service at the end of the day.

The Movie Slate App is really used for creating reports. At least the soundmixers that I know don't use it as Master TC. Some of the recorder create a sound report, along with the sound files. Some do it since they can e-mail the report quicker. In you case, the recorder can't create reports. Do you create sound reports?

Their site says it accurate as what it's jammed to, so if you just jammed to one camera, it should be okay, but I bet the editor has to slide audio to match video. But not a big deal.

The $50k was for the test equipment used to test the audio of the H4n. But we all knew that the sound isn't super great. No, he didn't test the SD or Zax, but they publish their spec's. Zoom doesn't do that. We all know that Zoom isn't a major player in location sound recording.

For converting the file to MP3, I think you can use the freeware Audacity to convert the two channel audio into one track, and the TC for the other track. I think WaveAgent will do it for free, too. What is this $300 buck software? I hope you are charging client for the extra time to convert the files?

I not to clear why you purchased a iPad to run Movie Slate? Most just use a phone or iTouch to log the information, for portability. You are only inputting scene number and if take is good? If it was me, I would used that money for a better recorder. How do you fit the iPad into you mixer/recorder bag? You have to cable the iPad to the H4n to feed it TC.

If I had clients require backup audio and MP3 files, regularly, and had spent $900 bucks, I would have gone in a different direction. If you have enough request for TC backup, I would have looked for a recorder that could at least take in TC. There are a few on the market that do that. Used, you can get the below the $700 bucks. Buy the Movie Slate App for my phone, and cables required. Pick up a $100 buck Tascam recorder for MP3 files.

Just hand over the files at the end of the day. No waiting to convert files with embedded TC or MP3 files. Still near or under your budget. If you are saying that the clients are not willing to pay for TC, I would just give them a plain backup. Any $100 recorder with the padded cable with do the job.

I'm all for cutting corners, but you say you have a demand for these services, I wouldn't cut corners. With the additional charges that you add on, the new equipment would be paid off pretty quick. If you willing to hack this system together, you must a plenty of clients ask for this services.

You don't mention what cameras you are working with?

Maybe I am old school, use pro equipment to do the job correctly.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

Tubecamera-or-bust.

Most sound people don't input TC the way you do.

Most pro sound people can afford the high end gear. I'm trying to explain how the rest of us can do it for much less money and, at the end of the day, achieve acceptable results. Using a Zoom H4N (or the Tascam DR-40 or the Roland R-26) allows you to save some $$ and still get the job done. In the end you deliver the same files just the way they asked for them.

If you're afraid to use anything other than what "everyone else uses", then don't.

The Movie Slate App is really used for creating reports. At least the sound mixers that I know don't use it as Master TC.

See reply above.

Their site says it accurate as what it's jammed to, so if you just jammed to one camera, it should be okay, but I bet the editor has to slide audio to match video. But not a big deal.

If left connected to the camera the time code would frame accurate. It is only acting as a reader at that point. Just like any conventional slate. After all what is a TC slate? A time coder generator with a digital readout on the front. Whether you are feeding camera time code to a dedicated digital slate or feeding it to (basically what is a) computer running a readout application the end result is the same.

I'm just now equipping my MovieSlate with a Comtek system I picked up on Ebay for $100. No different than using one of the newer Time Code Buddys. The camera has the transmitter and the receiver mounts to the back of the "child proof" rubber case I have for my iPad running Movie Slate.

No drift and no cable! And this way the PA can take the app and begin adding comments as we are shooting... "good take", "car noise", etc. and have it marked with the time code. No scratchy illegible notes to deal with later. Prints out clean to a file.

You don't mention what cameras you are working with?

Same as you. Panny P2, Sony XDCAM, etc. makes no difference. Time code is time code is time code.

Maybe I am old school, use pro equipment to do the job correctly.

I have no problem with that.

Keep an open mind and don't believe everything you read. There are always other means to the same end : )

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

Interestingly, there is an early version Deneke slate on ebay right now that comes with a Comtek IFB as a time code sender. Nothing new about the process of sending TC from the camera to the slate.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denecke-TS1-time-code-slate-with-wireless-Comtek-time-code-sender-and-receiver-/140905085140?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ce98f8d4

Wanted to explain a bit about time code and BWF (broadcast wave format) audio files that most of you may not understand.

Recorders like the Sound Devices or the Zaxcom that record in the broadcast wave format do so because, unlike plain old wave (.wav) for audio BWF has a place to store lots of additional meta data and also time code (BWF calls it "time stamp"). Other than that BWF is exactly the same as wave and any program that can play out wave will play out BWF sans the meta data information.

That takes us to just how BWF stores the time stamp. Like the Zoom H4N I have proposed using the popular Sound Devices 552 mixer has no time code generator. If you start the internal audio file recorder going with no time code generator connected it will place a time stamp at the head of the file to indicate time of day.

Connect up a TC generator to the 552 and that eight digit code will be substituted for time of day as the time stamp at the head of the file. The time of day stamp is still there in the file, however, just like any windows file you create.

Notice that part about head of the file??

That's the only place that eight digit code resides. The BWF does not allow you to record time code from the beginning to the end of the file. It only places that tag at the start of the file and then it computes the rest of the time (code) stamp from there. In affect, you could unplug the generator after the first second of the recording and it would not affect the time code one bit. BWF does not need it any longer.

Other attributes like sampling rate, camera frame rate and whether drop or non-drop are also inserted into the meta data and they determine how the time code is read back. These can be altered in the file at any point and doing so will affect how the time stamp is read back but not the stamp itself.

So what's my point with all this?

Just that the process I describe here for using a non-time code digital recorder to record longitudinal time code and then process the file in software to make it a BWF with imbedded time code is no different than using the 552 or any of the dedicated time code capable recorders on the market.

The end result is exactly the same as far as the time code in the file in concerned.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

This Movie Slate app is a pretty cool indeed. It is the Cadillac of iPad slates IMHO not only for the ability to slave to LTC time code (the only one that will do this AFAIK) but for all the features it offers the user... and there are tons of them. Just about everything on the slate can be adjusted to meet your needs. Even the color and pattern of the slap sticks... which really do sound like clap sticks... is user selectable.

First off, is the Bluetooth/Wifi feature. This give the device the ability to communicate with other iOS devices running the same Movie Slate app. You pay for the app once in iTunes and then you can install it on your other devices for free. Even the time code plug in, which is $49 additional to the basic $25 app charge, is free for your other iOS devices.

Once you do that they can all talk to each other. That means you can send time code and/or slate data from one device to all the others. That means they are all on the same page, so to speak, throughout the shooting day. Anyone running the app can have access to the same slate data as, say, the PA or AP taking notes using Movie Slate.

Each time you write a note (or speak one into the mic) it gets tagged with time code from the moment you type that first letter. No need to try and grab time code by eye.

There are any number of reports that can be generated end of day in standard FCP formats as well as my personal favorite HTML so everyone can read them. Just add the crew email addresses to the app (or your own address book) and they all get a report instantly. You select which fields (there are tons of them) show up on the report.

Now a word about Bluetooth. It is not very accurate for time code use in that you do not want to use it between, say, your camera or mixer and the iPad running the camera slate. There is just too much latency (time delay) with Blue Tooth to use it in this manner.

This is where Wifi would be necessary. The only hitch is you need to have a Wifi "base station" on set or at the location to run your network from. This can be a simple wireless router set up for DHCP to give out the network address to each device automatically. You should also set it up with a hidden SSID. That way it will not show up on someones iOS unless they know the network name and type it in.

Yah, this is a bit of work but not so hard as it cannot be used on set for extended days of shooting. If there is a Wifi network at the studio already it can be used as long as it is set up to allow communicating between users. Not all have that turned on for security reasons.

For the time being, and until Movie Slate 4.0 is released... which promises a completely revamped Wifi engine... I'll continue to use my Comtek to send time code to the slate from the camera. No latency issues and less for me to deal with.

BTW: I am not in any way connected to this product and I paid for mine in full. Just a happy user who wants to see others enjoy it, as well. If you any questions on all this just ask them.

 

[Necktie Boy]

Tubecamera-or-bust,

You are being misleading, or really don't understand what a BWF file is? I asked a location sound man about your believing that a $250 buck recorder works like a Sound Device or Zaxcom.

It's not possible to embed timecode within the H4N as part of a Broadcast WAV file -- it's strictly a WAV recorder in that respect, as far as I know. Whatever time gets embedded is just time of day.

So, my understanding is that a BWF must be about to embed reference to a related world clock to timecode. Recording TC on an audio track does not time stamp it with incoming TC, thus not a BWF recording.

Yes, you keep saying that you use a $300 bucks software to convert the recording into a true BWF, but that is a software solution, not a hardware solution. You have to convert the files, that takes extra time. You can't hand over the files without converting them.

What is the name of the software?

TimeCode Buddy is an crystal-controlled reference box. Unlike sending TC to your iPad, the iPad cannot create an accurate timing. TimcCode Buddy sends it signal via wi-fi, and the receive box is also a crystal-controlled reference box. Both boxes are in sync, and if the wi-fi signal is lost, the box will say in sync because of the crystal-controlled reference.

With the wireless connection, it does make it handy for the iPad, since it's not hard wired, but isn't the mixer hard wired to the camera? You never mentioned that you used wireless hops to the camera. So, I don't see it a big deal if another cable is attached. And if the iPad is wireless, how do you connect it to the H4n for TC?

Movie Slate is a cool App, but you could have used a text editor to ride very simple reports. I will assume that you are shooting television production, rather film style where the script is broken down. Retakes are being done, so they have to be kept track of. For transcribing requirements, a cheap recorder with correct cabling that allowed TC and mix be recorded to separate tracks.

You started out saying that you had a low cost solution for backup TC recording, but $1000 bucks isn't than much of a savings. Maybe spending half, is a low cost solution.

For what you have spent, you could have gotten an used pro recorder that could take TC in/out. Still don't understand why you have to get an iPad, where an iTouch or a phone would have done the same thing. Still get Movie Slate since you can jammed it, but knowing that it could loose a few frames here and there.

Finally, if you say that your clients are asking for these extras, why not use professional sound equipment?

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

You are being misleading, or really don't understand what a BWF file is? I asked a location sound man about your believing that a $250 buck recorder works like a Sound Device or Zaxcom.

It's not possible to embed timecode within the H4N as part of a Broadcast WAV file -- it's strictly a WAV recorder in that respect, as far as I know. Whatever time gets embedded is just time of day.

He is correct. I never said anything to the contrary. The Zoom recorder is used for the four track recording ability. The fact that it records BWF audio files allows those files to be modified later and the actual time code stamp inserted for what was originally the "time of day" stamp. That's what makes this all work. The fact that you can modify the files with the actual time code pulled from the LTC on tracks 3/4 and then strip off those two tracks easily with software leaving a stereo BWF with imbedded time code.

So, my understanding is that a BWF must be about to embed reference to a related world clock to timecode. Recording TC on an audio track does not time stamp it with incoming TC, thus not a BWF recording.

Not sure I get what you are saying, here, but I think I have answered this in the reply, above.

Yes, you keep saying that you use a $300 bucks software to convert the recording into a true BWF, but that is a software solution, not a hardware solution. You have to convert the files, that takes extra time. You can't hand over the files without converting them.

There is a conversion required and it takes all of several seconds for each file. In fact, the software program I use can run these all in a batch file so you can do the entire days work with a single click.

I personally like to record each persons interview to a separate SD memory card. That way I can pop out the card and, if time permits, pop that into my small Dell PC and convert the files while they are setting up for the next interview. Even if this cannot happen there is always time end of day or during a break in the action.

It really is not that big a deal. Not sure why you are trying to make it out to be some major project to do this tiny conversion. You do know how to use a computer, right?

What is the name of the software?

You will need AuxTC Reader from VideoToolShed ($249). Another great program to have on hand is Wave Agent from Sound Devices, which is free. That will allow you to remap the audio tracks so you can make a file with LTC time code for the transcription service should they need it as "stereo with one track audio & one track time code" like some for the clients I work for require. This is almost always sent via FTP or more likely using DropBox, today.

TimeCode Buddy is an crystal-controlled reference box. Unlike sending TC to your iPad, the iPad cannot create an accurate timing.

TimeCode Buddy explained: The Master unit is a crystal controlled time code generator AND a wireless transmitter running on Wifi frequencies. It sends this time code to a (dumb) RX receiver unit. The receiver unit does not generate time code. It only receives it from the Master. There is also a TX (transmitter) unit that will take time code from a camera and send that on to receivers as a digital data stream via Wifi.

If I'm using a Comtek TX, which is also a wireless transmitter feeding it time code from a camera and sending that to a Comtek RX receiver on the back of my iPad running Movie Slate, it is basically the same thing accept my signal goes as analog not digital data.

TimeCode Buddy sends it signal via wi-fi, and the receive box is also a crystal-controlled reference box. Both boxes are in sync, and if the wi-fi signal is lost, the box will say in sync because of the crystal-controlled reference.

All I can say is nothing in their specifications leads me to believe the receiver unit has anything in it to generate time code. It only receives the time code it is being sent from the Master unit or one of the TX (transmitters) connected to a camera and sending that time code signal. The MovieSlate app does generate time code or slaves to incoming time code via the headphone jack. Even if there was a drop out of the signal from my Contek, MovieSlate would continue to generate time code from that point on or until the signal returned whereby it would re-lock.

With the wireless connection, it does make it handy for the iPad, since it's not hard wired, but isn't the mixer hard wired to the camera? You never mentioned that you used wireless hops to the camera. So, I don't see it a big deal if another cable is attached.

For interview shoots I take time code from the camera. Having the slate go wireless allows someone, the PA in most cases, take notes for the producer/interviewer during the shoot without dragging the cable with him/her. Seems sometimes these young gals, when they are gals, like to sit off on the floor in the corner of the room and do this. Just the way they like to use their laptops, I guess.

Give me a soft chair anytime. Guess it's that age thing.

Movie Slate is a cool App, but you could have used a text editor to ride very simple reports....

MovieSlate tags each "note" with the time code automatically as soon as you start to type. That feature alone makes it worth the $75. The reports can be most any format including those preferred by FCP folks or just plain old HTML so even I can read them.

You started out saying that you had a low cost solution for backup TC recording, but $1000 bucks isn't than much of a savings. Maybe spending half, is a low cost solution.

$200 for a (returned to Sammy's Music) Zoom H4N, $320 for the re-manufactured, fully warranted iPad from Apple's web site, $75 for the Movie Slate App with time code plug in, $100 for a used Comtek on Ebay, $250 for the software. That comes to $945.

Now, to be fair, the iPad can be used for tons of other things so adding in here is done only to make you happy.

You add up what you would have to invest in a time code recorder and a dedicated hard slate with time code generator (or that fancy Time Code buddy system you like so well) to equal what I've done and we'll compare notes. Make sure to provide the flow chart as to what is connected where to maintain sync between the devices.

For what you have spent, you could have gotten an used pro recorder that could take TC in/out.

If you know where I can buy a used Sound Devices or Zaxcom recorder for $945 please PM me today.

Still don't understand why you have to get an iPad, where an iTouch or a phone would have done the same thing....

I have an iPhone and it also has MovieSlate on it but I like to use it with the free time code reader app from Ambient at my mixer. That way I can see the camera is running time code before I start my Zoom recording. It also shows me the frame rate and whether he/she is running drop or non drop without messing with the camera.

Besides, would you want to keep asking the DP to have to zoom in to that tiny iPhone screen for each take. Not me!!

Finally, if you say that your clients are asking for these extras, why not use professional sound equipment?

More fun this way, don't you think?

 

[Necktie Boy]

Tubecamera-or-bust,

You don't need to start out with BWF's to add TC. You can start out with a plain wav, as you do now, then add the TC. It's all done via software. If the H4n creates BWF like the H1, and from reading it does...Surprised, H4n and H1 really don't create a BWF. It's a wav. There may be a header in place in a wav which begins each take with 00:00:00. Each clip starts out with zero's. Even if the clips are back to back. Drop the file in an editor, and the start time will always be 00:00:00.

In Wave Agent, I can modify the TC, but when I save it in Wave Agent, only it can read the new TC. Premiere couldn't read the new TC. But if I save the file in Audition as a BWF, Premiere saw the new TC. Thus a true BWF.

So your H4n doesn't create BWF as a Sound Device, Zaxcom, or professional recorder. I would say that you would see the TOD on their files in an editing software.

Since you have Wave Agent, what does the file show as start time? I bet it's 00:00:00. It doesn't show TOD. As a test, change the TC and save it. Stick it in an editor or sound editor, and see if it can read the new TC. I bet it can't. Since the file is only a wav. Until you stick it in AuxTC Reader, it creates a new TC BWF. Just as I do it in Audition.

But then you got me thinking that you could just leave the files as it, and FCP and Avid can read TC on an audio track.

I don't think I read wrong, both the TimeCode Buddy's transmitter and receiver have crystal-controlled boxes. If you do loose the master TC via Wi-fi, it still stays in sync. When it connects back to the wi-fi, the box checks to see if it's in time. If it didn't some pro sound users wouldn't use it. Some pro users won't use it since it has wi-fi based.

Not sure about rejamming automatic with Movie Slate. If you loose TC connection, you have to rejam manually. I did read an long older thread about Movie Slate, but it was about six months old. Must just jammed it, and lived with the drifting. Since it was only for reports, a few frames off wasn't a big deal. For sound, 2 frames is too much for them.

If the PA works away, how do you send TC to the recorder? If no audio recorder is use, sure it makes sense to go wireless. But you were earlier writing about sending TC to the recorder, not about logging. The PA or you could still write notes on paper, and use the History in Movie Slate to add the comments. You don't have to trust the iPad to a PA. Also, you can ask the producer which tracks to circle good.

With a little more research, you could have gotten an Tascam P2 for $500 bucks. I have seen two on ebay for that price.
Gone with Movie Slate, $75 bucks with the options. Don't forget the cables, I read about $50 bucks for each cable. You need one to feed in TC, and other one to feed out TC. Do what you are doing now, jam the Movie slate with TC, and feed the P2 via the TC in. You say you don't need a fancy TC slate. I would have gone with a remanufactured iTouch for $125 bucks. $800 bucks. Add a H1 for $100 bucks or other small recorder for MP3 files. A few bucks for the cable. I get to use a pro recorder with better recording spec's and can input TC true mic/line in via XLR's. No extra work to convert files. If I wanted to go wireless, I have an older wireless that could do the job. But if you are running audio cables and a video cable for the monitor, extra cable isn't a big deal, and make the PA sit next to the producer to write down the comments.

I wouldn't want the help to sit away from the action. How do they know what is going on if they are not watching the action.

The Ambient App is just a reader? If you don't know when the camera starts and stop, it sounds you have a problem? Aren't you running the camera? And if not, the producer, director, or operator should tell you when to start rolling. And if they are not, that is their problem. These are the same people that what backups?

What worry about the frame rate? The H4n only records at 30 frames. It's not like a pro recorder where you can set that.
Frame rate should be know at the beginning of the job, not during. Why would the DP need to know frame rate? I would run fast if the DP didn't know what rate he was shooting if he had to check each take.

Sounds like plenty of work pulling cards in and out for each interview. Do you do that with the video? A card for each interview? I don't see where you get all the free time? Setting up the camera, mixer, mics, and anything else. Where do you find time to convert the files? Between interviews? That's where I relight, check sound, and anything else that has to be done before the next interviewee sits down. And if you take the work home, do you charge overtime?

For the workaround that you have created, it seems that you are not saving that much by going with a pro recorder, and a easier workflow. At the end of the day, you hand in your files and reports. Done for the day.

 

[cyndygreen1]

Necktie Boy...while I'm totally on your side for going the pro route , it seems as if each of you has a system that works for you. I get the occasional ribbing for not having a full size camera...but I have my reasons for not going that route. I will say this thread has been immensely educational. While good audio has always been in the forefront of my workflow it has been as a simple news shooter. There's a lot of depth here...more than I could ever have imagined.

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

Tubecamera-or-bust,

Sounds like plenty of work pulling cards in and out for each interview. Do you do that with the video? A card for each interview? I don't see where you get all the free time? Setting up the camera, mixer, mics, and anything else. Where do you find time to convert the files? Between interviews? That's where I relight, check sound, and anything else that has to be done before the next interviewee sits down. And if you take the work home, do you charge overtime? For the workaround that you have created, it seems that you are not saving that much by going with a pro recorder, and a easier workflow. At the end of the day, you hand in your files and reports. Done for the day.

You're right, Necktie. Thanks for clearing all this up for me.