Forum participation

The only person wanting a Berlin Wall erected is Nino. Freelancers in real-life I have no problems with. Hell some of them are my best friends. Besides, freelancers have the time to figure out what every switch, knob and menu option does on these modern cameras.

News folks, the only thing they want is not to be pissed all over for their career choices. How hard is that for some of the more vocal participants to realize?

Can there be a peace between the two sides, like there is in real life?
 

Brock Samson

Well-known member
Where did the thing about freelancers and news staffers not getting along come from? I do both and I've never had any issues at all, as well as production staffing and freelancing.

Where is the supposed divide?

No really, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm totally in the dark on this one.
 

Tom Servo

Well-known member
If a mechanic would ask what tool to buy then he is no mechanic
Speaking as someone who does his own car repair and performance modifications and therefore hangs out on a lot of car boards frequented by mechanics, you're wrong. They absolutely do ask each other what tools to buy. Hell, there are entire sub-forums dedicated to what tool *box* to buy.

As with any manufactured good, there are variations in quality and utility between similar products. You can line up 5 floor jacks from different manufacturers, and there will be quality variations between them. The Craftsman isn't gonna be as good as the Arcan, etc, even though they both look nearly identical, and have the same specs on the box, and the Craftsman is a lot more expensive. Unless you're rich enough to buy all five, you go to the forums and ask people for their input. Especially in today's economy, there are a lot of mechanics looking to buy tools from someone other than Snap-On, so that they don't have to sell their children to afford equipment. And they ask each other about which tools work better.

To date, I haven't seen the b-roll equivalent of a mechanic asking whether he should use a spark plug wrench or a sledge hammer to change spark plugs. I've seen them asking which spark plug wrench is the better one to buy. I see nothing wrong with discussions such as these, and feel confident that you (especially you, since you source your own gear unlike us news photogs who have to use whatever junk the boss hands us) can discuss why you bought whatever brand you bought. You made a decision when you bought your gear to buy that gear instead of a competitor's product, and there's a reason for that - and that reasoning is valuable input to someone looking to buy their own gear.
 

Nino

Well-known member
WOW, I’m gone for a few days and everyone came out of the woodwork on this one.

I’m so glad you guys are doing well with your working relation with freelancers. I also have many friends that are staff at stations across central Florida, actually I day hire many of these guys regularly, they gladly take a vacation or sick day to work with me as my clients pay them 4 times what they make at their stations, not to mention that they get to learn the freelance business. As I indicated earlier, 90% of successful freelancers come from the newsroom and for years I’ve been helping many of these guys taking the very critical first step into their own business. I also have a program where people tag along to help us for a day, unpaid because we don’t need and are not authorized to hire the extra help, but they get to observe and learn the way we do assignments. However, the question that Kevin asked wasn’t about how popular you are with freelancers on the street, Kev was asking for ways to improve B-roll and I gave my opinion, you’re all so quick in criticizing but not so quick in giving workable solutions or suggestions.

To all of you who made a career in criticizing others, ask yourself, how did I possibly arrived to the conclusion that freelancers and staff news people do not mix well on B-roll? Could it be that most freelancers, including those who contributed the most over the years have left?

Could it be because of these emails that I’ve been getting from the same freelancers and former b-rollers since this thread started?

In two words: RIGHT ON.

I left because I was shouted down by idiots and called "mean" by crybabies with thin skin. Why bother continuing to contribute? I know what I did to make myself a success. If other people are more worried about their feelings than listening to the truth, let 'em rot.

I applaud your latest entry, but we both know it faces the inevitable shoot-down by whiners.

Damn, man. I had people that kicked my ass in this business. All these newbies think their s**t don't stink and get all bent out of shape when you hit them with harsh realities.

Anyway, nice response.
Nino, why are you still wasting your time with those f*****g l*****s, you’re giving away knowledge and getting s**t in return? Wake up man.
And these are just the mild ones.

The only thing that news staff photographers and freelancer have in common is that they both do videos, and that’s it. Actually storytelling, most of what news photographers do is on the average less than 10% of what a freelance does. Nobody is undermining the skills needed to be a good storytellers, on the contrary, being a good storyteller takes a lot skills but these skills are not in demand in the freelance market, not because of our choice but because of market demand. I’m sure that some might find clients who only ask for storytelling but I have yet to find a freelancer who can make a decent living doing only storytelling, so I can only talk about what I see in the field. This is why for the last ten years on this and other boards I’ve been preaching about the importance of skills diversification for anyone who attempts to become freelancer. This is the biggest problem of those trying to make the transition from the newsroom to freelancers, most don’t have the diversity of skills needed or even know what skills are needed and this in most cases leads to failures. Sorry guys but that’s the reality, I didn’t create the freelance profession so please don’t shoot the messenger, I only call it as I see it out there in the real world. But of course by me telling all this on this board is immediately interpreted by the usual thin skin critics as if I consider news photographer somehow lesser that their freelancers counterparts and this is why all the ongoing controversy, and this is also the reason of why most freelancers have left, how many time do they have to explain this before it penetrates, and when it din’t they stopped trying and moved on, taking a lot of knowledge with them.

On top to the additional photographic skills necessary to get into and stay in the freelancer business, is the business side of the business, issues that staff people do not have to be concerned with, read again, this is what I was suggesting to Kevin. Issues such as marketing, bookkeeping, equipment investment, insurance, both for equipment and personal, equipment maintenance, depreciation, business taxes, both federal and state, not to mention tangible taxes, transportation, security, collecting from clients, cash flow, business plans, and the list goes on. These are all separate issues that freelancer need to discuss and vital to the success of the business, staff don’t, so why mix the two when there’s no common ground. But of course like always you guys let your own imagination get the best of you and interpret everything as an insult, open your eyes and your minds would you?

The NPPA asked me if I could start a program to help newspeople transition to freelancers but thanks to you I realized that the same problem with critics here on B-roll most likely will be repeated there, you’re not isolated cases, so I decided that wasn’t a good idea. I believe that in being honest and upfront will save many disappointments and failures later on. Sorry guys but I don’t know how to teach without being honest.

I really have no clue what’s going on in the newsroom, everything negative that I’ve ever heard came from newspeople themselves right here on B-roll, I also never heard you critics so proud of your professions challenging or denying any of those posts. If somebody would say anything similar about freelancing I would be all over them.

My goals in teaching has always been get to the very top or at least try, if you can’t make it to the top you can stop everywhere in between. Do the best you can and money will surely follow, but don’t go after demanding clients with deep pockets unless you have the skills they are looking for because they’ll only give you one chance to do it right. And this are the two main causes of failure for newspeople getting in the freelance business, overestimating their skills and misunderstanding the market needs. I really wouldn’t know what to teach to somebody who only wants to make $70K or less per year, I’m lost there, it isn’t my market, but I know how to teach how to make $250K per year because that’s my market. Isn’t a matter of being money hungry like many have calling me, it’s a matter of reaching business goals, it’s targeted marketing.

It has been a good ten years on B-roll, I made a lot of good friends and helped a lot of people, time to move on, there are still a lot of people that are looking for my help, actually more than ever. This is why I started the workshop programs. They shouldn’t be deterred by those few opinionated who have a safe job and could care less about freelancing.

Anyone who needs to get in touch with me, for educational purposes about freelancing you can email me at nino@efplighting.com

I also have a section on EFPLighting about tips and tricks,
http://efplighting.com/category/tips-tricks/
mostly about the same stuff I used to post here.

I also have started recently a group on Linkedin that I moderate with an iron fist.
EFP Video productions workshop.
http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=4449303&trk=anet_ug_hm
It’s strictly freelancers addressing all freelancing issues, it’s still new but it’s getting a lot of traction.

Peace
 

Douglas

Well-known member
Nino, although I disagree with some of the things you've said recently in other posts, I could not agree more with this one. RIGHT ON. You have summed it up very well.
 

cyndygreen1

Well-known member
Excellently worded Nino. I think we all agree you are the "go to" guy with lighting and high end production. But you yourself seem to have recognized the real issues. There is a separation between the goals of staff photographers and freelancers...not a hard line, but one that is easy to see.

The two conflicting trains of thought can best summarized that staff photographers love news...the daily challenges, the storytelling....the rush. Freelancers, meanwhile, having generally more control (and possibly time and definitely more equipment) aim for perfection. That is not to say that staff news cameramen are not aiming high too - however they face hurdles that production/freelancers may not. Staff cameramen are paid a salary to produce whatever story comes their way. Freelancer income is based on their expertise and the quality of work they provide.

The information you offer may be most valuable to those who aspire to your line of work...but it is also helpful to the everyday news shooter.

What you need to realize is that most news cameramen do NOT want to be in production. Or freelance. They love what they are doing. They are huge successes...they matter to their audiences and they go home feeling that they have made contributions to their community nearly every day. This success is not based on how much money they make...it is based on altruism. (At least that's how I viewed it when I was still shooting...each story was a chance to visually focus the audience on an issue or event and understand their world better.)

Also realize the negative comments made by newsies are just griping...it comes with the territory. Shooting news can be a tumultuous lifestyle...and venting sometimes helps you get through hard times. I've done it with other shooters...with first responders. Rarely with friends/family who have no idea what the job can be like. Consider b-roll a forum where we can come to let loose about the boss or the day or whatever. It is not like complaining to the public...just letting off steam with folks who understand us.

Understand that your expertise is appreciated...but the lifestyle you love may not be for everyone. Can we let it stand at that and move on?
 

adam

Well-known member
Kevin, I really like the idea of consolidating the categories - maybe allowing the orignal poster to tag them and making the tags searchable (is that already available?) would be a good way to allow a bit of self sorting without filtering away good content from one "room" or another. Perhaps the tags could be pulled from a pre-populated drop down menu so you could avoid needless proliferation ("truck ops" vs. "truck op" etc.).
The elephant in the room is the Sharks and Jets vibe the seems to be lurking around the Lower East side of B-roll.net. In general I think the only way to do that is to simply lock down on posts that attack members or insult people. This is really important because a large contingent of future b-roll members are in a group that is often derided and pursued with vigor - VJs. Many ground floor positions in news photography include one man banding. I would not feel safe as a total novice coming in here with an open kimono, seeking help. There have been some good, robust conversations here about the topic but they weren't for the faint of heart. Fact of the matter is that brand new workers are often insecure about their standing and won't return to the scene of a previous drubbing.
In short, the people who stand to gain the most from this site probably turn around at the sound of gunfire behind the door - while a few familiar marines go rushing in to kill 'em all and let the Great Maker sort it out.
Make it possible to flag a post and let the poster edit it or kill it all together. Freedom of speech is great but it also enables the Westborough Church to heckle military funerals - it might not be a bad idea to take advantage of your right to editorial in this forum.
 

Tom Servo

Well-known member
This is really important because a large contingent of future b-roll members are in a group that is often derided and pursued with vigor - VJs.
I think when we discuss VJ's we need to be very clear on what we mean. A Rosenblum VJ is someone who has no photography chops and little to no journalistic chops, but is given a $300 camera and pauper's wages, and let loose on the world to "go find something, and if we send 20 of you out there we might be able to fill a show." That's very, very different from a one-man-band in a starter market who's a recent graduate of a journalism school.

Personally, my animosity toward Rosenblum's VJ model is toward the model and the station executives who should know better but who get greedy and buy in to it, not the innocents hired to carry out the model's plan.
 

Tdomi74

Well-known member
Hello B-Roll from the armpit of SC. It's been a while, matter of fact too long. Granted this thread prompted me to log back in after being off the grid for the last two years.

I know that B-roll may have lost some its steam, chalk that up to the many different opinions that all have already been stated above. The main reason why I've fell dormant for this long is several of reasons. Reasons unrelated to B-roll, however I will say towards the end, all of the bashing were a root cause to walk away from B-Roll.

Some would call this growing up as a human being; some would say my thoughts and beliefs no longer mattered due to the changing of the guard. No matter which one you choose, I simply stop participating in B-roll. Not because I wanted too, the content given on this board is for TV News Photographers first and foremost and was no longer relevant to me and my day to day.

Once B-roll became a cool thing to do, many people of all walks of life starting coming to the well to take a drink. That brought different point of views from all over only to get out hand a little. I'll be the first to admit I did my share of lobbing back in the day. I too quickly became one that were under attack.

In hind sight I think the epic battle/war of Rosenblum era was B-roll at its best and worst. No matter where you stood on the issue you picked a side and went toe to toe about the issue of VJ's in TV news. Five years later, well there are still VJ's however it's not as bad as we thought it would have been.

I think B-Roll for the most part has gone though its growing pains. Kevin did what he needed to do to stop some of the in-fighting and keep this place a civil place to learn and rebuke with one another. Playing bouncer on these threads can be tasking at times. Let's remember how long he and others have been doing that task. Bottom line if you stop poking the bear, the bear doesn't growl.

What I would offer to B-Roll, is first and foremost stick to your brand. The core brand of this website has and will always be about the TV News Photographer. I know as the years went by and the site gained more traction more people wanted to come to the party. The things B-roll added or tried to add became too much for some and too little for others.

My point is simple, in my current role I've learn an important thing when it comes to business and life. You have to stay true to your brand! That might help refocus the attention of a giving / taking relationship here on B-Roll; instead of being in a bad episode of Roseanne or worst yet Jerry Springer.

I encourage some of the thoughts and ideas shared above and a few of my own to again engage people of the idea of what Kevin started way back in the day. It’s a place to come and share a stories and knowledge with his or her fellow shooter.

I say stop with all of the white noise in threads; if there is no point to be made, be it on either side keep things moving or worst yet simply drop it. Leave the personal attacks and digs to yourself, if you want to rebuke something be professional in its delivery. B-roll should be a dessert every day and not a plate full of broccoli.

Also it has been mention above by others but realigning the message board threads to what you had back in the day. There are simply too many options, just think if you're a newbie it could easily lead you down the wrong path of one’s attitude. Streamline would help focus the conversation. That conversation should be a place at the water cooler to shoot the ish along with a place to exchange ideas and knowledge.

Also you all know content is king these days, however content for the sake of content only confuses the reader/viewer. Produce content that TV News Photographer can use in these changing times. Continue to be advocate for all photographers yet don't shun those that want to come to the party and participate.

B-roll along with the NPPA has taken me to some awesome places in life. At one time or another I've bashed one or the other only to realize it's not about Pro-Broll or Pro-NPPA. It's about getting a great of people together to exchange thoughts and ideas. Who cares if you win an award or make this much on assignment? Bottom line it's about good interaction with one another. One to this day after sitting down and forming this thought that I miss.

Stay Classy
 

cameragod

Well-known member
Personally, my animosity toward Rosenblum's VJ model is toward the model and the station executives who should know better but who get greedy and buy in to it, not the innocents hired to carry out the model's plan.
If you look back at the old posts on MR's VJ's you will see there was never hate from us, just a healthy degree of skepticism that the 100% VJ model would ever work. Which it didn't.
 

cyndygreen1

Well-known member
100% VJ probably wouldn't work.
There are stories you need a full crew on.
Some you only need a camera for.
Some a VJ.
And some a reporter back in the studio just talking about it.
Every story is different.
You really can't hate VJs any more than you can one man crews (camera doing the work of the light and sound perso).
The trick is to know when and where to use the appropriate crew.
 

adam

Well-known member
Gents, totally understand the VJ big picture argument. I'm looking at it from the standpoint of the VJ themselves -

So, lets say it is an out of work ___ (recent PoliSci college grad, local community paper writer etc. etc. etc.) who has just enough background, and it may not take much, to get a minimum wage job as a VJ somewhere. Heck, lets say it's one of MR's shops.

But if they're coming here and the overarching sentiment is "they're born failures" then you won't stick around. Sad, because they came here to improve and learn.
Of course the intent isn't to heap on them - it's the model, not the individual, that people despise. But sometimes the fire gets so big and hot you can't see what is burning - if I'm a brand new VJ who recognizes that I need more info than what I've been given, then b-roll would seem like a treasure. But one look at some of these threads and I'd slowly back away while avoiding eye contact.

I've gotten involved in this thread because I work with some folk who are pretty much at a VJ (MR style) level of technical proficiency. They're doing small videos for small organizations that love any kind of video support they can get. It's a no harm no foul kind of deal. B-roll would be the perfect place for them to come for help but I don't dare steer them here for fear of what their reception might be like when they respond to "what camera are you using?" with "I don't know". These folks want to get better, they want to pursue video in their career.

Don't change your stance on the business model, I'm not suggesting that. Just consider your entire audience and the unintended consequences of making too fine a point. That is advice for everyone (myself included) anytime we're involved in dialogue (not just here) - our actions and words can be interpreted very differently depending on the facts and data held true by the audience.
 

cyndygreen1

Well-known member
Good for you for stepping up adam. Sometimes the firestorm kills everything in its path...and we need to remember that we all began somewhere.
 

adam

Well-known member
My pleasure Cyndy (posting here usually is) - I'm not trying to incriminate anyone in here, I'd have to plead the 5th if I was. It's pretty rare that someone does something flat out wrong in here but we've just got to make sure we review our writing from the eyes of a brand new video person, the kind that Kevin wants to attract, before hitting "submit reply". The basic litmus test for a post should be "will this make people better and could this hurt the site?"

We can disagree but lets not be disagreeable. Because the loser in that equation isn't the guy/gal you just put down. It's the community and it's liege who suffer.
 

Tyna

Well-known member
I don't know who used to make the evil media cartoons, but those were awesome! I really enjoyed those.

I bought my first leatherman from a product review on this site, well over a decade ago. It is the Crunch, and I'm glad that I did. That particular tool has become difficult to find these days, in favour of the Supertool and others that are quite similar. The vice grip property of the crunch has held lighting gels, tripod legs, light stands, and anything else I've needed in a pinch. I wrecked the serated blade early on though, when I had to do a roadside repair on my muffler pipe by slicing into a tin pop can. And I remember many many years ago, getting into a long discussion with Lensmith regarding the use of zebra patterns in a black and white viewfinder (sorry Lens, but after all these years, I still don't use 'em!).

Anybody remember Scoop?
 
Top