Forum participation

[cyndygreen1]

1. Give good advice (that part seems to still be with us...there are a goodly number of folks who know their stuff and are willing to share).

2. Don't judge others...respect both those who know more and less than you.

3. (My personal buggaboo) Don't let the lack of knowledge or rudeness of others push you into mimicking them. Walk away or respond civilly.

4. Don't be the gorilla in the room. No matter how much you know, you are no more nor less than anyone here. Be humble.

5. Remember this is a news cameraman site. There is much overlap between print news and broadcast news and production...but the focus is all things news video.

Hope this helps...and great job riding herd Kevin!

 

[cyndygreen1]

And perhaps closer moderating by moderators so that topics fit the category. If you look below, each forum has a mini-definition. With a few exceptions they are all about news.
General Discussion (21 Viewing)
The forum for all ideas dealing with Television News Photography.
PRO Forum
Professional discussions with posts limited to PRO users using their real names.
ENG / TV News
All the news that's fit to.... PUT ON TV.
Spot News
Discussion of Spot News Issues
Chief Photographers
Forum for discussion of issues facing Chief Photographers and other managers.
EFP / Freelance / Production
High-end video production
VJ / OMB
One Person Does It All...
Educational Resources
Entry Level Questions and Video Critiques
Video Critiques
Upload your videos at b-roll.net TV and embed them here for productive critiques.
Entry Level
Questions and critique requests from those just getting into the business.
Other Discussions
Video Editing (1 Viewing)
The forum for all ideas dealing with Video Editing.
Product Reviews
Your chance to debate Product Reviews.
UNCENSORED (1 Viewing)
Almost anything goes... thus b-roll.net can not be responsible for the content. ENTER AT OWN RISK.

 

[b-roll]

Thanks Cindy... great ideas...

kev

 

[cyndygreen1]

Maybe a better word would be guidelines. There will always be some overlap and some disagreement. The trick is to know when you are approaching boundaries and pull back. I doubt very much that any of the folks who post here would behave in person the way they do here.

 

[Tom Servo]

A few thoughts. Take them however you like:

- Please don't require us to log in with our Facebook logins. As I do not have a Facebook account, such a requirement would mean I couldn't log in. And while we're on the subject, don't get too caught up in the social media hype. Social media tends to be favored by teenagers and college students, and it has their attention span. Sure, Facebook is hot today. Myspace was hot several years ago. Something else will be hot 5 years from now. Broll shouldn't be focused on being trendy - it should be focused on the most efficient way to disseminate helpful advice and information that is of use to the TV news photographer. Message forums are still king in efficient discussion structure. I don't want to have to "like" something to get tips, and I don't want advice that's limited to 240 characters. If someone requires a friends list, or tweeting, or cat pictures in order to be captivated enough to read what you have to say about their chosen profession, that someone might not be interested enough in their chosen profession.

- Get rid of the PRO forum. Some of us are pros who do not like to splash their names all over the internet (see: Facebook) and therefore cannot participate in the pro forum. Why exclude people because they have a greater need for privacy than others? We've all done this job long enough that we can tell when someone's full of crap as to whether or not they are or ever have been a real professional TV photog. Creating exclusive clubs based on trivialities such as what peoples' real names are will, I think, only lower overall participation.

- Start advertising the forum. Have forum members call up their alma maters and tell the journalism profs to send their J-students to this site, etc. I've talked to a bunch of people who had no idea it exists.

 

[Douglas]

I second everything Tom has written.

 

[b-roll]

To Tom...

Don't worry on the facebook issue. Any additional facebook connectivity will not change the way you log in now. There may be new ways to log in, but the "old way" will always continue to work. We're just looking for more ways to get people into the conversation.

The "PRO" forum was created by request to give members a location where there will be no anonymous folks. We can look into the effectiveness and advantages of this as time goes on. Any other opinions?

I agree that b-roll.net has lost the edge when it comes to university students. It's probably not taught anymore in classes. I had hoped that the "entry level" section would give students a safe place to throw out their questions. Any ideas on spreading the word are appreciated.

Thanks again...

kev

 

[sheriff]

Two points.

1) Thanks, Kevin. I lurk a lot, and don't post much because I don't really have much that's interesting to say, but I appreciate what your site has given me, and long may it continue.

2) Was that a sighting of the mythical "dinosaur" upthread? Almost fell off my keyboard ;-)

 

[b-roll]

Thanks for bringing the "points," sheriff...

I did a double take on the dinosaur sighting as well. Powerful thread to pull Ivan and Dino out of the shadows.

Nice to see some old familiar names in this thread...

kev

 

[cyndygreen1]

Thanks for clarifying re facebook Tom. I like getting b-roll feeds on my facebook, but it shouldn't be a requirement to access the site. And twitter? Mostly I feel it is background babbling, but if there is important news/updates it might be handy. Or not. All up to Kevin.

Perhaps "Pro" should be relabeled...frankly most of the folks who come here are pros (or heading that way). "Unshielded?" "Not afraid to show face?" "Real names for honest discussions?" "Shameless self-promotion?" I do think that until b-roll gets a handle on the trolls and snipers that there does need to be one forum area where we can go and not have to worry as much.

And maybe alerting under 100 size markets and those who work in them might be just as effective or more as aiming at college students. Newbies with jobs will have much more focused questions and will be more driven to come to the site for answers.

 

[cameragod]

I still think we need less topics. maybe

General Discussion
The forum for all ideas dealing with Television News Photography.

EFP / Freelance / Production
High-end video production

Video Critiques
Upload your videos at b-roll.net TV and embed them here for productive critiques.
.
UNCENSORED

 

[Tom Servo]

Perhaps "Pro" should be relabeled...frankly most of the folks who come here are pros (or heading that way). "Unshielded?" "Not afraid to show face?" "Real names for honest discussions?" "Shameless self-promotion?" I do think that until b-roll gets a handle on the trolls and snipers that there does need to be one forum area where we can go and not have to worry as much.

To clarify my position on the pro forum, I do not take offense at its name. I object to its existence. TV news photography discussion is not the place for exclusive clubs. If what is being discussed back there is useful for the news photographer, then all news photographers on this site should be able to discuss it. If what's being discussed back there is off topic stuff, then the uncensored forums (or even facebook ) would be good places for those discussions.

Of course, that said, I just looked in there for the first time since it was formed (I don't tend to look in places I don't feel welcome unless I'm holding a camera) and I see that unless there are filters which keep the "unwashed masses" from seeing everything that is posted in there, there have been all of 6 posts in there so far this year and therefore it seems to be a very under-used sub forum to begin with.

I do agree that B-roll needs to get a handle on trolls and snipers, but segregating the userbase is not the way to do it. Having moderated a number of discussion fora on the internet (and pre-internet dialup BBS), I've learned that the only way to effectively deal with trolls and snipers is to have a strong moderation schema in place, and very clear rules as to what users can and can't do. One of those rules should be "You will not make posts that are clearly intended only to antagonize or irritate other users," and it should be enforced with a progression of post deletions, warnings, and if they just won't quit, username and ip bans. All of this needs to be handled behind the scenes, both to avoid causing user paranoia (it happens. It's stupid, but it happens) and to avoid giving the troll more public attention, which is what he thrives on.

Genuine trolls and snipers are not interested in reforming - they're only interested in pissing people off. It's what makes them happy. So if you warn someone once or twice for being a boorish jerk, and they keep doing the same thing, you can be very secure in the idea that they are not going to stop until they are forcibly stopped. That's not to say that the mods need to be jack-booted thugs with keyboards - just that jerk users need to be stopped quickly and efficiently. And fairly - one major problem with moderation on a number of forums is that one user will post something antagonistic, a second user will take the bait and flame him, and the second user gets slapped around by the moderators while the first user is ignored.

And maybe alerting under 100 size markets and those who work in them might be just as effective or more as aiming at college students. Newbies with jobs will have much more focused questions and will be more driven to come to the site for answers.

Good idea! Pitch it as "training you don't have to pay for," and ND's will make it mandatory

 

[cyndygreen1]

Tom...I was right there with you and you have made me see that maybe the Pro section needs modifying or deleting. You presented some good arguments. Cameragod made a good argument for fewer forum sections. I'm sure Kevin is taking notes and considering all of this.

Especially enjoyed your insights on trolls and snipers. What I can't understand is that individuals are allowed to tag others (as individuals or individual posts) but I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually do it.

And that is a good idea...letting under 100 news directors know that b-roll is a great resource for their hires. Would really help bond the newbies with the more experienced shooters/editors.

 

[Nino]

To all...

Can we please stop this from being a finger pointing match (I work in DC and deal with that enough).

Can we stop saying "it ain't me - it's you" - and try to find a potential solution?

What is missing - that could help bring back valuable discussion? And who's in for helping make it better?

Thanks to all...

kev

I would love peace on earth too Kev, but I know it ain’t gonna happen. It’s a good and peaceful gesture hoping to just forget about the past and let’s move ahead on the future, would be nice. In the real world however sweeping past problems under the rug without finding out first what created those problems and rectifying the issues most likely will cause those problems to keep happening again and again. You’re gonna need a real big rug.

You got to run this place like you would run a business. What are your goals, who do you want to reach, what do you want to accomplish, and most important, can you bring back sponsors so to make your time worthwhile?

Being everything to everybody isn’t going to work, this is why the forum is where it is today. Somebody mentioned the glory days when this was a nice watering hole for news photographers to congregate. If this is the directions that B-roll should go then do it. People can gather here at the end of the day in front of a virtual beer and share war stories or discuss compelling threads like “name 10 reasons why a reporter is stupid”. It’s just fine as long as people know what this forum is all about it.

If you want B-roll to be an educational resource then you need educators first. Rearranging or eliminating forums is like rearranging the furniture, might look good for awhile but is still the same old stuff.

One thing that we’ve learned for sure is that news people and freelancers don’t mix well, justifiably so. We all have different issues to deal with and beside the fact that we all use video cameras for making a living there’s very little else we have in common. 10 years ago there was some ground sharing issues but today with modern problems the two are more apart than ever. If you take a deep look of what you consider problems you’ll see the distinctive philosophical separation of the two. The only time a news person became deeply interested in freelancing is after they lost their job, and usually it’s a temporary interest until they find a new job.

If you want to keep this a news forum then eliminate the freelancer altogether, from what we've been reading this will eliminate a lot of problems, don't worry about us, you have to go with the wishes of the majority. If you want to retain and attract the two then build a high fence in between, with few holes because there’s still some limited common ground, such as stringers as example who are walking both sides of the fence.

Create two distinctive forums, NEWS and FREELANCERS, then create a number of sub-forums under each main forum specifically geared toward that particular groups issues and interests.
Set rules and place moderator(s) on each forum and sub forums with specific topics, preferably someone who has extensive experience on the topic of each forum.

Cut off troublemaker after their first post. We had idiots like Lake4, Go Daddy and Grinner to name a few that created nothing but troubles, took months to get rid of them. If you go back you’ll see that this is where all the name calling started.

Restrict and eliminate useless replies such as “You’re wrong” it should read instead “You’re wrong because: facts, facts and more facts.

Be democratic, this particular thread has more views that any other thread in the last 4 months, meaning that there are a lot of interested lurker. Doesn't do much good asking to the same dozen people whose been here for years what they would like to see, get new and fresh ideas and suggestions. Create a separate temporary forum and ask them what they would like to see, don’t ask them to sign or become a member, just ask what they want, but let someone monitor each reply before posting to eliminate the ever-present idiots.

I got more but this should be enough for now.

 

[Icarus112277]

Let's not get too crazy about thread views...I don't think those are 'uniques', and I have a strong feeling that the people involved in the thread are responsible for a significant portion of the views.

 

[LostInSpokane]

blah...blah...blah.

I'm sorry, but its a little hard to take someone seriously who believes that the only success in life is how much money you make and that news photographers are ambulance chasers who spend their shifts doing nothing but shoving their cameras into people's faces

http://www.b-roll.net/forum/showpost.php?p=256884&postcount=62

The news photogs on here have generally been quite charitable to you. How about you show some respect in return instead of stereotypes that put Hollywood to shame. I'm sorry you couldn't hack it in a newsroom, doesn't mean that the folks who do love it are losers.

Now back to my lurking...

 

[Lenslinger]

One thing that we’ve learned for sure is that news people and freelancers don’t mix well, justifiably so.

I'd chalk that up to message board bravado. I know LOTS of freelancers in real life and have never had a problem with any of them. Only here am I regularly told that by working for a TV station, I'm not living up to my potential. Odd way to encourage activity on a television photography website.

 

[Brock Samson]

Not sure if you were talking about my threads or not really

It’s difficult for a veteran to answer or even participate in most conversations taking place here, I wouldn’t know how to answer somebody who ask what camera should he buy. If a mechanic would ask what tool to buy then he is no mechanic, if a cameramen ask what camera or light to buy then he is no cameraman, yet, we hear the same question almost daily.

Cmon dude, if there's one place on the entire internet that people should be allowed to talk about video cameras, I would think this is a good one. It's a big investment, certainly worthy of getting other people's opinions I would think?

And yes I have created a few of these threads myself! I honestly really enjoy seeing what people have to say about different cameras. It's interesting to get different perspectives on their strengths and weaknesses.

So many new cameras are coming out so rapidly nowadays, I don't think it's ignorance as much as it is keeping up with what's happening in the industry.

But for all I know you weren't even talking about the questions I've been asking so...yeah.

And in case anyone cares after the threads I created and questions I asked I found a great deal on an EX1 so I think I'll be going with that, and probably a 5D Mk3 for later for other types of imagery.

 

[Douglas]

My favorite threads are the ones that discuss the pros and cons of various types equipment or the pros and cons of specific models. That is information I find useful to learn about, and I enjoy sharing what I know with others when I think have an answer someone else is looking for. If we take away that, what the hell are we left with? Having a pissing match about how long we've been in business, how much gear we drag around with us, or how much income we make? Boring.

These aren't the old days of Betacam where every camera was pretty much the same and they had almost no menu options or special features to master. There are more camera and lighting manufacturers than ever before, dozens more professional camera models than ever before, dozens of codecs to choose from, external recorders to consider, hundreds of lens options, and many different workflow variations to consider.

The new cameras are damn complicated if you really want to take advantage of what they offer. And if you do NOT want to take advantage of the new technology, and just keep treating the new cameras as if they are an old Betacam, then you are about to become extinct anyway.

And it's not just cameras. Tungsten lighting is as old fashioned as SD video. Now we've got hundreds of LED and fluorescent options, with more accessories to choose from than ever before. Why shouldn't we discuss them? It's not like we can run over to Best Buy and see them for ourselves.

Long-gone are the days where we have to rely on some major network or crewing service to hire us, or get hired full-time by a TV station. There are more ways to work (and make money) in this industry than ever before. If I had to rely on the same old clients week in and week out, doing the same setups week in and week out, I'd shoot myself in the head.

As I've started teaching classes in recent years around the country and at Maine Media Workshops, I've learned some things myself. And probably the biggest one is the realization that "my" way is often not the best way for someone else. You can't just ram information down someone's throat and expect them to be successful with it. One size does not fit all. And there are many ways to judge success. I'd rather be Mr. Holland than professor Kingsfield.

If this isn't going to be place where we can share knowledge and experience about the tools we use -- and if a wall is going to be built between news photogs and freelancers -- then I'll join the others who have already moved on.

 

[Land Rover]

I'd chalk that up to message board bravado. I know LOTS of freelancers in real life and have never had a problem with any of them. Only here am I regularly told that by working for a TV station, I'm not living up to my potential. Odd way to encourage activity on a television photography website.

I'd have to agree. Having worked both sides in news and commercial production, mostly on the staff side though, and I've had more problems with other staffers than freelancers.