Forum participation

Lensmith

Lensmith

Member
Like many others here, I miss the days when there was more discourse. Civil discourse, to be exact. The volume of posts is not what it used to be yet...I know, personally, quite a few long time lurkers here at B-Roll.

Saw this study and thought it was interesting. Specifically, web site participation is NOT a true example of the complete community who visit a site. A hopeful study, from my point of view. ;)


http://www.useit.com/alertbox/participation_inequality.html
 
John,

Traffic is down a bit. I know that it took me a few years to break down and join. I do lurk on a few other boards. but don't feel like joining to post one or two comments. Most of the time, the questions that are asked, are answered by other users. Thus, don't have to post. I think most of us old dudes, follow the same boards.

Lately, I really haven't had much to say. I have met plenty of the guys at Vegas, but they have cut down on posting. The only person I see posting is Doug Jenson. I have read anything lately by TVShooter or Nino. Even Onemanband hasn't posted that much. I really enjoyed and learned plenty from you and the other posters.

While other sites I go, it's dead! At least B-roll is still kicking.

I will admit I visit another user board everyday. The group business is just production sound. A veteran group of sound mixers, talking sound and equipment. It's a very active board, but it has been since day one. Daily, they provide fresh information and ideas. Maybe since most know each other, or know of each other works. Always something new every day. I should mention that most of the users donate money to upkeep the board.

It seems Kevin hasn't been too active since his medical problem and new additional to his family. While the other host on the sound board is active everyday. Also, the board headings are broken down into better topics.

As the new hires in our business. I can't talk for all, but many newbies feel they know it all, and don't need a discussion board to learn and talk about work. I have met some newbie shooters, and really don't want to talk about it. It's job, and when they are off, no talking about the business. No passion like the veterans!

I was commenting about how a C-Stand was misused to a few fellow shooters. They understood what was wrong. Don't know how a newbie would react. Don't know if they have ever used a C-Stand. Most I know, don't.

When I do want to talk about the local business, I turn to a few good shooter friends, and discuss the business, but privately. I don't use FaceBook or Twitter. Just good old e-mails, or face to face.

B-roll still has plenty to offer. I will try my best to keep it active.
 
I have to agree, meaningful discussion is down. It must mean everyone is working so much they don't have time to post!

I try to post articles that are meaningful to the news photos, mainly cops vs. us.

Would like to hear from editors and where they are heading: Avid, Adobe, Final Cut X.

I love this site by the way :)
 
I regret seeing the discussion slowing on b-roll.net (and yes, I am somewhat to blame for my lack of blog articles). To clarify, I'm not ready to give up just yet!

My interest and love of b-roll.net has always been based on feeling that it is a valuable resource for photogs like myself around the world. If I felt a feature could make it easier for a shooter to ask a question, share a story or find a gig, I'd work to make it happen. And often lean on wizards like Speed Graphic to help me do that...

The response and loyalty from everyone over the years has been amazing. I think this site has done a lot of good. I can't tell you how much everyone's support meant to my family and me while I was recovering in the hospital a year ago.

I do feel that we're losing traffic to facebook, twitter and other similar sites. Unfortunately, when I see less traffic, I'm less apt to post write-ups and stories.
I have a great group of moderators who help me find spam and off-topic posts, and I've very grateful for them. But, I'd love to have more story contributors.

Let's do a highlight on one of your stories. Give me some behind the scenes of your day as a shooter. Share your world with the world. Send me photos, video, whatever!

Submissions are always welcome. Send them - and any suggestions you may have - to kev@b-roll.net.

I'd love to hear from you!

kev
 
What I miss most on B-roll is new videos. I learn so much more from seeing the works of great working VJs. It gets my creative juices flowing. While everyone in my neck of the woods are doing just video wallpaper and bores the heck out the viewers I'm telling stories they remember.
 
Sounds good MikeW... Drop us one of those videos and maybe it'll inspire someone else to upload their video... which may inspire you. It's a vicious circle.

All the best,

kev
 
Lens,

A couple of months ago I limited my participation after a particularly negative post by a senior member.

This site had always seemed a refuge from the nonsense and a great sounding board. I had hoped my perspectives had some small merit and added accordingly. I am not now a shooter, but my craft dovetails with that of lensmiths everywhere. The rancor disgusted me and I am far less likely to chime in. In my view anything that can add to the act of visual storytelling is useful to those of us who work behind the lens.

Intellectual myopathy creates the noise that drowns creativity and has lead our industry into the morass it's currently in. I still start most days glad to be in this fubar business. Wondering what lunacy I'll be expected to wrangle under deadline. New faces. New stories. Playing bard in an electronic age.

Small or closed minds breed small and unoriginal ideas. The progeny of an open mind is the perspective and curiosity needed to make the mundane compelling.

Informed discourse is what news is supposed to instill. To be part of the fourth estate is more avocation than vocation.

If I pissed you off, good! Its what I do best. Discuss it with someone or post a comment. Do it in a civil manner and you may open a mind or two.

Can't be civil? F#€K OFF :-D

It always disappears into the ether at the end of the broadcast day anyway.

Cheers,

Omar
 
Last time I was in D.C., Kevin and I discussed this very thing over a few high dollar beers. Message boards were all the age when Kev built b-roll and for a time it attracted the brightest (and loudest) among the Photog Nation. Since then, social media has exploded and Facebook/Twitter have drained quite a few specialized brain-trusts like b-roll. Pity that. Hopefully, Kev (and the rest of us) can find a way to keep this place growing. Social media will no doubt continue to morph, but in the end, it's just a delivery system. Content, as every photog knows, is king. I do think the rancorous debate between staffers and freelancers kind of spoiled the fun, though. It certainly did for me.

It could be worse. B-roll could be a blog. Who reads THOSE anymore?
 
I posted a topic today but only as a last resort after I couldn't find it through a google or yahoo search. There's no civil debate anymore on b-roll. You post something, thinking it might be beneficial to someone, and there's always someone lurking, waiting for your post so they can go on the personal attack. It gets old. B-roll has its place if it gets back to what it should be for, a place for staffers, freelancers, and newbies to ask questions, learn, and discuss new ideas. That only works if we are ALL open to new ideas and realize the industry is constantly changing and the old way doesn't necessarily work anymore. In most shops, gone are the top of the line 2/3" shoulder cameras. Yes it sucks but its not going to change. Complaining is fine but don't jump all over someone who's trying to make the best of the situation by having a positive attitude about using a hand held 1/3" camera to do his/her job.

Another thing that gets old is seeing someone post a message looking for an answer (usually the person is new) and the first response is to jump all over the person for not searching for the answer in previous threads. Why? How about we just "participate" and answer the question again? Who cares if there's already 5 threads on the topic. If you don't want to participate, just skip to another thread. Its that simple.

As for Facebook/Twitter, yes I use them both everyday. For discussion about an industry, they're not really usefull. B-roll is broken up into categories. Can't do that with Facebook and Twitter only gives you 140 characters. I've decided not to post anymore, except on the rare occasion, but I still check the site about once a day and read over new threads to catch any new info I may have missed. It would be great if we could get back to simple discussions and debates without the anger, hatred, and personal attacks. I know I'm guilty of it in the past and I take responsibility for that. I'm just not hopeful that's possible anymore. I think, deep down, there's a lot of pent up frustration and hatred for the path this industry is going and we all just seem to let it out on b-roll in the worst ways. Its unfortunate. I learned a lot from b-roll when I first started out and it would be a shame if that resource weren't available to the next generation of shooters.
 
I have noticed that posts are down, too. Still, I always check in here every few days to see what is what. I also, check in on Linkedin, but it is getting spamy. I don't mess with twitter and I use FB for mostly personal connections. I hope this board continues to be active. But, I must say, there are a few people here who like to attack others for the fun of it.
 
Its the fighting.

I haven't seen resources like this on Facebook....and I don't use twitter.

The fighting turns people off from asking questions or from posting opinions for fear that they will get mud thrown at them.

I'm not a camera owner or operator, but always liked to stay on top of the news and read field stories and get the poop from the people who are out there. Just seems like a lot of mud-throwing lately.

This used to be a place where people could ask for advice, tips, tell stories, shoot the crap etc, without drama.

And I think there are less camera people as well...and many 'newbies' do not get the training to realize that there are better ways to do the job.

But then again I also remember years ago I had lost my username/password, logged in as anon, and weighed in a topic about the future of tape and got sh_t on for suggesting that tape was definitely dying as a standard. And look where we are now.

It just seems like the vitriol level has ramped up, and its not something I care to read or participate in.
 
Necktie Boy said:
I have met some newbie shooters, and really don't want to talk about it. It's job, and when they are off, no talking about the business. No passion like the veterans!
Click to expand...

In partial defense of the newbies, it is difficult to muster up passion for television news these days. The idea of the journalist working to uphold a public trust and presenting fair, good journalism is as dead as the dodo bird in most newsrooms. Hell, I know people who have a daily fight on their hands just to retain some shred of basic ethics - like not staging or not allowing the source to approve or reject content - in their work without getting yelled at by the ND.

In short, the news "business" has always been low pay, but it used to be a place where you could make a difference and do good work, which to some of us, made the crap wages worthwhile. Now, it's low pay, low ethics, and low journalism, while the ever-shrinking news staffs are expected to do much more with much less. In short, at many stations, this is no longer a craft. It's a factory, churning out pablum as fast and as cheaply as possible, and rolling over such quaint notions as the 4th estate or ethics.

If a new shooter finds himself in one of those places, I really can't blame him for being less than passionate.
 
I would say that twitter and facebook have been a distraction, but not necessarily a cause for the decline of B-Roll. I've got several friends on fb who are in the business but only really heard of one popular fb tv photog page.

What I do see more of is two factors...one is that mentioned above this post, the decline of the industry and changing standards. The youtube generation that thinks they can overtake Spielberg at about 22 yoa because they have been doing this for 6 year in their HS media class and majored in it in college are fools at best...and perhaps only truly fooling themselves. I don't know how to reach them.

The second is the infighting here. I mentioned this before but this cyber d***-swinging contest is getting us nowhere. I've learned stuff from Nino and SVP...from Teddy and NewShooter...from Doug and Rosenblum. It's up to me as an individual to separate the hype and the crap from the posts. There are people here I would love to work for, those I appreciate, those I couldn't probably stand in real life, and those who I just straight up think are idiots. There is nothing wrong with stating what you think is right or best if you honestly think so based on facts or your first person experiences. But too often, we have fell short of being helpful and humble here. If we can start encouraging a civil, mature, respectful environ, and put in a bit of marketing done on each members behalf, we can start to build it back.
 
Lensmith said:
Like many others here, I miss the days when there was more discourse. Civil discourse, to be exact. The volume of posts is not what it used to be yet...I know, personally, quite a few long time lurkers here at B-Roll.

Saw this study and thought it was interesting. Specifically, web site participation is NOT a true example of the complete community who visit a site. A hopeful study, from my point of view. ;)


http://www.useit.com/alertbox/participation_inequality.html
Click to expand...

John, all BS aside, we all like to play experts and state our very own reasoning of why traffic on B-roll has dropped, it’s mostly therapeutical and makes us all feel good, give us the opportunity to point fingers at those we don’t like. The truth is that the demographic of the industry has changed, is polarized, you have the guys at the top that are doing very well and then the silent majority comprise of newcomers and those with little experience who can't earn enough to get a meal at McDonald. This is why you have more lurkers than participants. I’m sure they would love to participate too if they only knew what question to ask. They lurk hoping to grab whatever piece of information they can.

I conduct workshops when my time allows it and mostly in the summer when it’s slow for us down here. I had to rethink the content, it was once geared to professional and now the bulk of participant are at the VJ level, or out of work news guys who are now trying to make a living with their cameras, and there’s a long waiting list to get in. It isn’t only lighting anymore, although that’s the main theme, once they start asking questions the intended content of the program goes right out of the window, it becomes production in general and business workshop with lighting squeezed in.

It’s difficult for a veteran to answer or even participate in most conversations taking place here, I wouldn’t know how to answer somebody who ask what camera should he buy. If a mechanic would ask what tool to buy then he is no mechanic, if a cameramen ask what camera or light to buy then he is no cameraman, yet, we hear the same question almost daily. How do you engage in a conversation with a cameraman who already knows everything, except what camera or light to buy. This is why veterans no longer participate, why should they, not even a dog wags his tail for nothing, it’s a give and take world. We’re willing to give our time and share knowledge we were fortunate to acquire over the years but we also expect to learn something in return, but there’s nothing here to learn anymore, there's absolutely nothing to gain here, the conversations went from expert down to below basic, for most of us it has become a waste of time and we’ve all moved on to better things.

I still get a dozen of emails each week from B-roller who need help but don't want to post here in fear that somebody will make them look stupid, and like I did in the past here I help everybody.

So if anyone need any help you can still email me at: nino@efplighting.com
 
Nino said:
...The truth is that the demographic of the industry has changed, is polarized, you have the guys at the top that are doing very well and then the silent majority comprise of newcomers and those with little experience who can't earn enough to get a meal at McDonald...

...it was once geared to professional and now the bulk of participant are at the VJ level, or out of work news guys who are now trying to make a living with their cameras, and there’s a long waiting list to get in. It isn’t only lighting anymore, although that’s the main theme, once they start asking questions the intended content of the program goes right out of the window, it becomes production in general and business workshop with lighting squeezed in.

It’s difficult for a veteran to answer or even participate in most conversations taking place here, I wouldn’t know how to answer somebody who ask what camera should he buy. If a mechanic would ask what tool to buy then he is no mechanic, if a cameramen ask what camera or light to buy then he is no cameraman...]
Click to expand...

Nino...you have a several good points and a few I dispute.

First graph - yes, there are those at the top and the bottom...but there is also a good portion in the middle who are doing well and working hard. Maybe not living large, but enjoying working and earning money doing what they love.

Second graph - several things I beg to differ with. People out of work are still professionals...they are looking for work. VJs are professionals...just doing the job differently. The theme of b-roll is NOT lighting. It is all things video, and from the name of the site and the profession of the founder, I would say it began as a news cameraman site.

Third graph - you are oh so right about that. I've written a number of posts about choosing gear and always emphasize that I will not tell folks what to choose...I'd rather tell them their options and to select what they need, not just blindly buy what is recommended. (My favorite line when asked what the best camera is to buy? I usually reply that whoever you pose that question to will adamantly say it is theirs (camera make/model)...because they did the research and spent their own money on it.)

And forgive me if I misunderstood graph three...I took it as a reference to b-roll, although if you meant questions aimed your way it would be lighting.

You can't start a board and expect it it to stay forever the same. Members come and go...even the founder changes over time. New members have (to them) new and compelling questions...which the old members have heard way too often. But this is and should continue to be a learning board...not just for old timers and urber experienced, but also the continuing stream of future shooters, editors, lighting experts. Not every one will make it...due to lack of passion, talent, or other reasons. But those few who do should be nurtured and brought into the fold.

And I enjoy competition. It's a free market...those who can, will get the work. Those who can't will disappear. And competition forces us to be better at what we do.

I come to b-roll daily to check out the forum...to both learn, toss in my opinion, and occasionally add information. As a retired news cameraman and retired teacher I know that only a few will take the lessons offered here seriously. And I do enjoy giving as much as lurking and taking.

In conclusion...keep up the great work and this site Kevin. Just as news and video and the world are morphing, b-roll must somehow keep its focus and at the same time change to keep up with the world.
 
Hi Lensmith, hope Miami is treating you well.:)

From time to time (rarely) I pop in here. The only reason I still (rarely) pop here is to read what four regulars Lensmith, cameragod, D Jenson, and Nino have to say – that’s it – the rest are either posting so rarely that I don’t see their posts or most likely are gone from here. For me the last I could handle is a few years ago during NAB when Kevin chose to take this site into a different direction – editorially speaking Kevin took this site more towards VJ, Cheap OMB, Not a professional oriented direction. Judging from the editorials that was very clear during that NAB. To top it off a while after that Kevin said that he would allow his anonymous editors to edit posts of posters using their real name. Even though it doesn’t appear that Kevin’s anonymous mods are editing posts of real-name posters – just the though is scary enough to scare away any respected professional.

I’m not saying everyone left due to the above but many did. Others may have left for their own reasons but IMO this has nothing to do with fights between freelancers and staff. There used to be tons of staffers with a wealth of teachings to offer. Like David-B from Los Angeles or PineCone from the heartland. No freelancer ever fought with guys like that because every freelancer knew that staffers like above had knowledge, experience and a lot to offer to this board. But when you get someone that’s been shooting for less than a year on an all-auto handycam telling someone with a long healthy career that they are fools – and the b-roll editorial directors agreeing - well the so-called fools will eventually leave.

Silly comments like “””That only works if we are ALL open to new ideas and realize the industry is constantly changing and the old way doesn't necessarily work anymore. In most shops, gone are the top of the line 2/3" shoulder cameras.””” Has gotten old for this guy. Shouldn’t preach “adopt or die” because there is a third option “Adapt or Die or LEAVE this board and keep working as a pro”. BTW glad the shops around my part of the world are adopting from 4:2:2 BetaSX to 4:2:2 XDCam with 2/3 chips and HD.

Nino I don’t know why you bother. God knows that you and I had a few disagreements in the past and I surly don’t agree with everything you believe. One thing is sure – no one sane, in his or her right mind would argue against your success or call your business practices idiotic – yet someone always does. (So much for sanity)

Lensmith, cameragod, Doug J, Nino G take care. If I weren’t so scared of Kevin’s mods editing a new SL-11 cartoon I would make another one. That would sure draw 'em back in - eh!;)

Kevin, I hope your health is doing OK, in my last B-Roll post I wished you a Godspeed recovery (looks like my wish came true) as for the direction you taken this site – you deserve what happened to it.

To all the amateurish point n shoot handycamers - -enjoy the board.:)
 
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