Forum participation

[svp]

EFP,

Since you quoted me, I'd like to point out that the two most popular cameras that local stations are going with when upgrading are the JVC HM750 and the Panasonic HPX370. Both are 1/3" chip cameras and cost well under $10k and come with a lens. No, not everyone is doing it but most are. Call it crazy, silly, or whatever but it IS happening.

 

[cyndygreen1]

...the last I could handle is a few years ago during NAB when Kevin chose to take this site into a different direction – editorially speaking Kevin took this site more towards VJ, Cheap OMB, Not a professional oriented direction.

I’m not saying everyone left due to the above but many did. Others may have left for their own reasons but IMO this has nothing to do with fights between freelancers and staff. There used to be tons of staffers with a wealth of teachings to offer. Like David-B from Los Angeles or PineCone from the heartland. No freelancer ever fought with guys like that because every freelancer knew that staffers like above had knowledge, experience and a lot to offer to this board. But when you get someone that’s been shooting for less than a year on an all-auto handycam telling someone with a long healthy career that they are fools – and the b-roll editorial directors agreeing - well the so-called fools will eventually leave.

Nino I don’t know why you bother. God knows that you and I had a few disagreements in the past and I surly don’t agree with everything you believe. One thing is sure – no one sane, in his or her right mind would argue against your success or call your business practices idiotic – yet someone always does. (So much for sanity)

I sense the hardening of arteries from fear of change here. Personally I'd love to freeze time in say the eighties or even nineties...but it ain't gonna happen.

When I entered the biz in the early 70s the "old" timers were bemoaning the pending shift from tape to film. And the moaning started every time something new came along.

Realize that OMB/VJ PREDATES YOU DINOSAURS! Newsreel cameramen did it all before you were even welped.

Yes things are changing...yes it is scary. You don't have to embrace it, but realize no one can freeze time. It is a far better thing to monitor and control that change than to snub it and let it run free.

And BTW those staffers w/a wealth of knowledge are still out there most likely personally helping in the incoming newbies. And loving it. There is nothing like new life to make your life better.

This is Kevin's baby...and he seems to have his head screwed on pretty tight and is willing to bet on the future, not the dying past.

 

[Nino]

Good to hear from you Ivan and nice of you to drop in, I hope everything is going well with you. In the middle of this discussion, before Kevin deleted some of the most politically incorrect (but true) posts I was thinking to myself, this is the type of exchange where Ivan would be all over it, and sure enough here you are, welcome back even if for a brief moment. You were ahead of the rest of us, you saw the writing on the wall and left early.

Back in the 80 and early 90 before he passed away I did some work with Howard Cosell, he lived only few miles from where I used to live. A true character who said what was on his mind, regardless of the consequences, I really admired the guy, he was the last of the honest ones. Once I said something that I thought was inappropriate , Howard pointed his finger at me and told me “remember before you open your mouth, what’s right is not always politically correct and what’s politically correct is not alway right, so f**k em all, if you feel strongly about something go ahead and say it loud”.

Being politically correct should be the motto on B-roll, regardless if it’s right or wrong.

In the spirit of Howard Cosell here me out ladies.

One of the reason that I did not mention the middle of the production business is because I really don’t know anyone who has chosen to stay in the middle of the production business, it doesn’t mean that they are not there, just not in my circle. I don’t know if you have any kids or how many, isn’t my business, but I have 3 and they are all doing very well, my youngest one is only 22 and he has chosen to follow in my footsteps and doing very very well. My wife (of 42 years) and I raised them with one objective, be the very best you can be, sound like the Marines motto but we used it long before they did. We didn’t mean be the best but be the best you can be. If they were only capable to achieve mediocrity and that was the best they are capable to achieve then it would had been just fine for us. In few words work to your best potentials. But, if they would have chosen to stop trying after achieving mediocrity then it wasn’t OK.

I conduct occasional workshop when my time allows it and I have a waiting list, but how many do you think would pay to attend if I would tell them that I will teach them how to achieve mediocrity in this business? Probably only a small fraction will be able to get to the top of our business but my goal in teaching is to show them how to get to the top and unless they’ll give it their best shot they’ll never know if they can do it.

It’s also about the ability to achieve a lifestyle goal. Some people are happy to live in a rented apartment, that’s just fine, but not the goal that I wanted my kids or those who pay to attend my workshops to achieve. I’m the example of that goal. I want everyone to be the stereotypical american. Own a nice home in a safe family neighborhood, own 2 cars, have kids and be able to pay for their education and provide a nice nest egg for you retirement, or they might choose to do something else with their revenue. None of this will happen if they set their goals to mediocrity in productions.

In most jobs we do we have to use every level of skills, if you look at the Gruden’s QB Camp series, BTW one of the most successful shows on ESPN, and now it’s being copied by all sports networks, you’ll see that in the morning one of us goes to greet the QB at either his hotel or at the airport and follows him in the limo on his way to Gruden’s place. For that a VJ making $150 a day would be more than sufficient. We use a small camera and any sound is taken in the limo with the on camera mike as the camera is only 2 feet from the subject. We then move into the main body of the show where we are expected to be at the top of our game, of course top of the game pays top dollars too. At the end of the show we move to a football field for some drills demonstrations, for that a news photographer charging somewhere in the middle range of the going rates would be more than sufficient. But I’m sure that you don’t think for a single second that the producer will hire 3 crews to do the job.

Just for curiosity Cindy, how do you run you business, being set to only handle mid level productions, when a client call do you ask for details of what the job entitle and then decide if you can do it?

Now, as far as PROFESSIONALS goes, probably one the most abused word. Maybe we should classified professionals as level 1, level 2, level 3, etc. Before starting my career 42 years ago I spent seven year in school studying art, photography and cinematography, and that was just the beginning because I haven’t stopped learning yet. I also own about $250K worth of equipment and in my 42 years I spent well over one million in equipment. I’ll be damn if I allow a wet nosed lazy bastards punk whose education consists of a 3 weeks bootcamp with Rosenblum and invested $5K in gear at BestBuy to ride on the coattail of those who have sacrificed a lifetime in order to make this a real profession.

Now that we are in the mood of classifying professionals, how about smart and stupid professionals too. God only know that we have plenty of both. For the last ten year on this board I’ve been preaching about the importance of skills diversification and how important this is to one’s career, or life too. What I got back repeatedly from news guys was, “why should I learn when I don’t get to use it on my news job and my boss don’t care, if I get a job that I need to know then I learn”. You have no idea of how many times I got this answer, this what I classify as the stupid professionals. This was the time when having a news cameraman job was as safe as having a government job. You haven’t heard anyone saying that in the last five year as new cameramen have been getting pink slips by the thousands. Now many, like we’ve been reading many posts here, have been unemployed and searching for jobs for years and with no marketable skills they are all trying to gain ASAP skills that hopefully might make the marketable.

90% of cameramen (camerawomen) freelancing for national network and earning top dollar come form news, only ten percent like myself come from the film and commercial end of this business. Those are people that had visions and a strong desire to move up, they understood what it takes to make a decent living. They acquired the needed skills before they found the opportunities, and when the opportunities were in front of them they were ready to grab it and run with it.

And in conclusion, Amanda, last time I was on a sideline was 8 years ago, most of my work today is features and documentaries, that’s storytelling with a bigger paycheck.

 

[jajack71]

I like this site

Over the years I have enjoyed lurking and posting here. I have received some valuable info just by reading post or going through old posts. The reason why some of the newbies don't comment because if they ask a legitimate question they are attacked and we all have read the attacks on this site. Just because I have experience does not give me the right to throw around me seniority so to speak. If you work in news I'm sure you have to deal with annoying people from the desk to the reporter and everyone in between. B-roll should be a place to get educated and educate and share ideals and job tips. I have a account with tvjobs.com and I see more updated job for shooters and editors than I see here on b-roll.

I would like to see more talk about obtaining freelance work on the national and network levels but, so many people on this site are either selfish or scared to help out another fellow photographer. Like everything else in the world our business has changed and there's nothing we can do about it... We can either come to terms with the changes move on or get moved over. Same thing with this awesome site. If the members of b-roll don't contribute content or positive discussion to this site it to will be a passing memory. For me personally I can be free on this site. I can say things that many of other shooters and cutters can relate to because of the nature of the business and our craft.

 

[Latin Lens]

Funny how things come full circle at some point. I too had a lengthy discussion with Kevin at the last B-roll Bash in Vegas. I completely understand his concerns and I wish there was something I could do to help. So that's exactly what I do. I don't post much in the General Forum but I do read it to get info and ideas and use it for getting some question answered because b-roll.net is a wealth of information from very talented and knowledgeable photogs from around the country and world. My contribution is mainly to the video critiques section because that is what I am most passionate about...helping anyone willing to get better. I of course have noticed the significant decline in postings there but I visit b-roll.net everyday...except maybe the weekends...just depending on how busy I am. I encourage all of us make more of this board by participation. We make this what it is. I support Kevin and hope to come up with some ideas to make this site a little better.

 

[Lenslinger]

I've worked in TV since 1989, most of that time with a news camera on my shoulder (or better yet, on sticks). I've worked with talent in tow and all by myself. These days you'll find me shooting, writing and editing day-of stories that a select number of in-house anchors front. I got a nice house, a pretty wife, a couple of cars and a kid in college.

When b-roll first appeared, I took to the message board with a vengeance: telling stories, making friends and picking up tips and techniques from folks I'd never get to meet in person. Kevin was kind enough to print some of my longer anecdotes and was the first to offer encouragement when I began blogging.

That blog became my passion and, to some extent, still is. It's allowed me to spread my wings, meet some real industry rock stars and overall improve my mastery of the craft. Though I poured most of my on-line energy into my own site, I continued surfing b-roll for ideas and inspiration.

But a funny thing happened on the way to internet bliss. This place, once a watering hole for photogs of every stripe, became a bastion of anonymous abuse. Certain contributors changed the tone of this message board, lording their own version of success over those of us who simply had no idea we were abject failures.

I'm the last person to demand political correctness. As the veteran of several newsrooms, I value a free exchange of ideas as well as the inherent ribbing that comes along with it. But I'm not going to log in and offer much of anything if every topic is met by boorish taunts from folks who are convinced their way is the only way.

I work in a shop that still values quality storytelling - from lighting to sequencing to writing to editing. Down the road, in a larger market, there are shooters that I am positively in awe of. Many of them have also become my friends. Through my site, I've met even more passionate storytellers who are generous with critiques, challenges and the occasional craft beer.

It's the exact kind of camaraderie that used to be available in spades here at b-roll.net, but no more. Instead, you'll probably be shouted down if you pose a question or posit a theory that runs counter-current to the views of a select few. If I, a veteran staffer of twenty years, shy away from the predictable vitriol that dominates the conversation here, why would a young photog brimming with questions wade into the fray?

He (she) wouldn't, which is why we've seen the slow demise of a once vibrant site. It's a crime, really. Kevin Johnson is one of the most stand-up guys I've ever met and the times we've huddled over drinks have been nothing less than stellar. For his sake alone, I hope b-roll.net can overcome these growing pains. But with the current crew of self-professed elders laying in wait to attack any and all who dare challenge their sensibilities, I don't see how it can.

Pity, that.

 

[cyndygreen1]

Nino

Again we must disagree on some points. Cosell was a sexist...perhaps in ways a gentleman, but still a relic of the past. Albeit a great sportscaster. I know you knew him personally, but from my take of his public comments, that is what I've walked away with.

I have three children...and we seem to have the same standards. Choose what to do and do it to the best of your abilities. You seem to have done well by yours...as I have with mine (although none of them chose to follow me into news, one is a teacher, one in the Navy, and the third going to college). And I'm only a few years behind you with 40 years of marriage under my belt. So in some ways I think we may have more in common than we care to admit.

But we will continue to have our differences, which is what makes life more exciting and interesting.

What I've been trying to communicate is that each individual chooses their own path. You seem to want everyone to do what you do - but have you ever worked as a news cameraman? Ever? It is not production...while there are many similarities, there are many more differences. Time management, pulling off the impossible on a daily or even hourly basis. Getting jerked off a story and being expect to excel when given a second story and virtually no time to do it. But still making it work. This is NOT production...but many of us have chosen this life for the many rewards (and pay most certainly is not one of those). Seeking the truth...telling the story. Making the audience care about their community. I feel that the job of news cameraman and VJ are more challenging that what you do...and yet people in those professions do it day after day and come back for more with a passion. And they do it for more than money. Their souls are embedded with wanting to make their world better with stories and facts.

So yes, they don't have the lifestyle that comes with a high salary. They may not be happy with everything in their lives...but they are happy with their lives in general and can hold their heads high, knowing they are doing the best they can.

So separate out news from production first. And understand the skills you want newsies to learn your skillset. You are extremely knowledgeable in lighting and production as shown by your gear and income...but again, if I tossed a news camera at you and gave you two hours to get to a location, shoot a story, write it and edit it, could you? And don't discount those skills because you don't think they are important or beneath you please. This is a job many have chosen. And they are not Rosenblum students...please don't put all VJs into the same category.

Re news cameraman saying they don't want to learn something until they need to know it...could be several reasons from lazy to overloaded to more likely never ever having to use those skills in the career they have chosen. Again, can you cover a news story? No? Because it isn't a skill you will ever need. Two different jobs.

And you are correct in that most of the folks working network level are making good money...but those jobs are being outsourced more and more. And the lifestyle that goes with that money is often at the expense of a stable home life. I know...I had the chance to jump on that ship in my younger days and weighed having a family and stable marriage against being constantly on the move.

And to answer your question re production...I am a news cameraman, a storyteller, a videojournalist. Not a production person. Most of my work is freelance storytelling, although I have taken on one or two production gigs..and frankly do not have the inclination to do more. I like the freedom of doing things my own way, not being at the beck and call of a client (I do love the few I've worked on and the challenge...but again, that is an area you are admittedly the expert in...I suppose I just don't have the temperament for it).

I hope we can somehow agree that we are discussing two separate job classifications...with different requirements. One you understand and are the expert in...and on I love and can probably do more efficiently and better than you...

 

[cyndygreen1]

But a funny thing happened on the way to internet bliss. This place, once a watering hole for photogs of every stripe, became a bastion of anonymous abuse. Certain contributors changed the tone of this message board, lording their own version of success over those of us who simply had no idea we were abject failures.......If I, a veteran staffer of twenty years, shy away from the predictable vitriol that dominates the conversation here, why would a young photog brimming with questions wade into the fray?

Dammit Lens...you are oh so much better with words than I will ever be. Thank you for this posting. Success, as Nino said, is being the best you can be...but not by mimicking others. We each have our own path to follow.

 

[cyndygreen1]

Nino...
After reading Stewart's well-written comments above, I wish to apologize to coming after you (and Mr. Cossel) personally. Rather than deleting my posting (which will raise the hackles of some who might call me a coward)...I would like to say I stand by my comments but wish to withdraw any personal animosity I may have directed towards you. I rest my case that news cameramen are the focus of this board and they are legitimate professionals, from network to OMB. I do admire you Nino..your work ethic and your knowledge. But, like Mr. Pittman, I have made my choices and am happy with them.
I wish you well. (and thanks Lens for reminding me to play nice)

 

[Nino]

Cindy, we are part of the same mold of good parenthood, we all work hard and want the best for our children. My oldest one is a bank executive, my daughter, the middle one, is a school teacher and she’s currently working on her PHD, (this is why I have to keep working) and as far as my youngest one goes I wasn’t able to talk him out of getting into this business, in this area you got me beat, but he is doing very well.

Now about Stewart’s good ole days of harmony on B-roll. He joined in 2001 and I came on one year later, so if this elder is the cause of the disharmony then you guys had a very short lived good ole days period.

I have no clue how I got the reputation of being anti news. Could be from the multitude of complains on this and other boards coming from people in the news business? Could also be from the many people who lost their jobs and can’t find a new one? I think that you would be very challenged to go back five years on the B-roll archives and find anything or anybody saying anything positive about the news industry. Actually I know what ruffled Stewart’s feathers. About five years ago after being sick and tired of hearing people on this board complaining about their jobs and the new industry I wrote on a post saying, not in so many words, that if you are part of an industry that is having problem you must accept part of the responsibility and the blame. This didn’t go very well with Stewart, too bad because I still feel the same way, not just for the news business but for any business. If you consider yourself part of the team then you have to accept responsibility for successes as well as for the failures. So from what I can see on this board and from what I hear from Stewart, if the negative statement comes from in-within the industry then it’s acceptable, but if from an outsider then it’s a no no. Please let’s not start a discussion on this.

I have all the respect for someone who goes out and create a story and edit it in two hours or less, and if that person would be adequately compensated for his work and talent I would even say that he is a smart businessman, but this isn’t the case. Again from what I read from people in the news business is that many of those who have those skills are living on the edge of poverty. The cause of this is the most fundamental rule of business, supply and demand. The supply of storytellers far exceed the demand for storytelling and this drives earning way down.

When I teach and preach to those who are listening or paying me to guide them in the right directions and I say to reach for the top and stay away from the news business is only because of what I read from people in the news business of course. My goal if for them to earn how much as they can so the can have the best lifestyle possible. Again read about all the complaint and about all the out of work news guys that can't find a job, and when they do find one is at poverty wages. All this negativity comes from people in the news business and you can read it right here on B-roll. If they are happy with making $30K per year and do storytelling everyday, then go for it, I’m not going to talk them out of it, they might have a rich uncle as far as I know. I know that if I was rich I would do stories about nature day and night, and I do those too but as a hobby and not for a living. On the other hand I know as a fact that most established freelancer even with the ups and downs of the video industry are doing well, so in all honesty, in which direction should I drive newcomers?

Now how far as jumping on newcomers when they ask for silly questions, or whatever else Stewart or anybody else is describing as the reason of the downfall of B-roll. Find any post to back those ridiculous statements of your. There are 3 negative series of posts and events that took place on this board. Of course the legendary Rosenblum saga that lasted several years. The next was with the village idiots Grinner, and the third and most current is with SVP. If you go back on those posts you’ll see that the name calling that apparently created the disharmony and the alleged downfall of B-roll started always from them and not from me, it’s just that I can swing back better that they can. Everybody else in my ten years involvement on B-roll who have ask for any help I was always the first one, and often the only one there to help, and I still do.

 

[cyndygreen1]

It's kind of like family...we can tease and ride hard those closest to us, but we protect them when someone outside of the family does the same.

And accepting responsibility and blame for something you have little control over is a bit strong.

Maybe others started the negative and attack postings...but we can all do our bit to ride herd on our own postings (myself included). I love a good discussion...hell, even a good argument. But it becomes a problem when it becomes personal.

Thanks for understanding. (and congrats to the nearly a Phd).

 

[Lenslinger]

Nino,

It does this forum no good for you and I to engage in a personal pissing match. Out of respect to Kevin, I will refrain from doing so. In the past, I have been guilty of lobbing invectives your way. It's the exact kind of bitter back and forth that I believe has somewhat desecrated this place. I refuse to be drawn into this type of exchange and, as a result, have stayed away. Judging from the declining number of fresh postings, I'm not the only one employing this tactic. Who wants to be heckled for pursuing their passion?

I will say this: You have an incredible amount of experience that could benefit the newbies this board needs to survive. As much as it must pain you, so do I. Like you, I receive e-mail from folks asking advice on television photojournalism. I share what I know, but I never berate them for not earning enough money. That's not what they came to ask me about. This could be a place where vets and newcomers come to learn and share war stories, not endure the chest-beating of those who have made it to their version of the top.

I didn't get into this business to get rich. Anyone who did would be better served to find a more financially rewarding field. Most station staffers do so because they consider themselves storytellers and enjoy the variety of covering a different assignment every day. I simply see no shame in this and can't rally understand why you do.

As for the ever changing methodologies of our field, from VJ to solo journalism to whatever the hell they're calling it these days, it's sadly a fact of life. Though I enjoy producing news sans reporter, you won't see me fronting my own stuff on camera. But many DO and, depending on the tone of discourse, they could really benefit from all that the many contributors to b-roll.net have to offer.

Doesn't seem like too much to ask.

 

[dinosaur]

Whatever.---------------------

 

[Michael Walter]

As someone who could still be referred to as a "newbie" (4yrs into a full time gig) I can only say how much this board has helped me grow as a photographer. I was giving this web address about 7 years ago from a mentor and have visited the site atleast twice a week since then. I do not know any of you on a personal level but you all have had a hand in shaping my career, especially Latin Lens through his video critiques. I understand that the profession has changed from what many of you started out in. However, people like myself still do view photojournalism as an art and intend to do everything they can to keep it that way.

It does bother me though when I see threads turn into a match of one-upsmanship. It does not do this board or the younger group of photographers any good. I would like to thank Kevin for starting this website and all of you for sharing your many years of experience.

 

[Nino]

I appreciate the peace offering Stewart, although I have the strange feeling that I just got slapped in the face with an olive branch.

Let get one thing straight before we move into the cease fire, I never said anything about or against you, I didn’t even know you existed before I saw this guy saying stuff about me. Everything that happened was retaliatory for what you said about me, even my writing wasn’t good enough for you, but we both have great respect for Kevin so let’s let bygone be bygone.

Now back to the main topic. As far as all of you that say that the main reason that traffic has dropped on B-roll, and that’s the “infighting” I have one thing to say, YOU’RE WRONG. On the contrary, the reason that traffic slowed down is because those who you accused of being troublemakers have left. Wasn’t enough that they had to fight somebody who was creative bad threads, they had to fight those who criticized those who were participating in the discussions, who needs that.

Let’s look at some numbers, Kevin deleted my previous post I believe in order to maintain peace so I’m just going to post numbers.

These are 3 threads that I started and that ended up with some sort of name calling. They got a total of 28,562 views. So please don’t tell me that people don’t want to see this kind of stuff.


The VJ predicament 12-31-2008 04:38 14,540 views

http://www.b-roll.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18775


Costly citizen journalism 06-26-2008 9118 views

http://www.b-roll.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20944


The danger of Youtube. 12-31-2009 4904 views

http://www.b-roll.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24764


In between all the arguments of these and many other similar threads there was a wealth of information being exchanged, and the only reason that these topics got into depth was mostly because participant were going out of their way to get information to prove that the other guy was wrong.

So to all of you who said that this is why people left B-roll, what would you have done?

Let’s start with Rosenblum as the infighting era on B-roll (like you guys call it) started with his very first post here. Everyone of his projections about the future of this business failed, today he doesn’t even mention any. Keep in mind that the underlining of all his posts were for those who believed in his future theories to take his classes and pay him. We argued that he was wrong and his were nothing but fantasies and will never work, and never did work. I don’t know if anyone did or didn’t take his classes, but whoever did was a newcomers with no knowledge of this industry and subsequently lost money. Knowing that Rosenblum was wrong would you have kept your mouth shut in order to maintain harmony on B-roll or spoke up and try to prevent newcomers from making mistakes? What would you have done? I know that we gathered and posted a great deal of information to prove that his projection were nothing but fantasies and we invited him to challenge that material, and of course he never did because we were right. Wasn’t pretty but sure was informative and educational.

Let’s fast forward a few years, and I’m just hand picking one of the many threads.

SVP posted a thread about marketing stock footage, he claimed that he was averaging over $700.00 per month selling stock footage. I was very interested because I have thousands of generic clips in my archives that I usually keep for my client but I was exploring ways to generate additional revenue. So I started researching SVP claims. After crunching number I arrived to the conclusion that he was lucky if he was making $700.00 per year, never mind per moth. After posting my finding he came up with alternate methods of how he was arriving to those number. I crunched numbers again and even with his new methods he was lucky to break even, never mind generating a $700 per month profit. Of course the conversation turned that I was an old fart and I should retire, the typical routine. As traditional with SVP after he realized that he made a fool of himself with bunch of lies he deleted the entire thread.

Should I have kept my mouth shut and let him give false information and subsequently some poor fool with no experience would had wasted hours hoping to equal what SVP was allegedly doing or use my experience to bring up the fake post.

What would you have done?

I’m a firm believer that as those accused of “infighting” left B-roll a great flow of useful information particularly useful to newcomers stopped flowing too, In fact I haven’t seen much useful information lately, unless you want to know what camera to buy.

The real truth about the drop in participation is that in the glory days B-roll was one of the few games in town. Now we have Linkedin, I’m a member of 48 video groups there plus I have my own. Plus there’s Twitter and Facebook. Like on our video business B-roll has competition too. I still consider B-roll as a family, dysfunctional at times but still a family.

 

[adam]

Kind of fascinating - I'm still producing videos, although only hands on about once every several months and I swing by here just to see the goings on every once in a while. Content here hasn't really changed but the distribution model on the web has.

I'll say this Kevin - I think the site would well served to be tied into Facebook (use your FB account to post) and then have new threads send a Tweet out so people can know when there is new content. I've seen the Facebook log in thing save some forums. Just a thought.

 

[b-roll]

Hello Adam...

Thanks for the idea... We actually have a facebook page (http://facebook.com/the.b.roll.net) that will update with all new threads and stories. I'm still looking into ways to allow posting on facebook to display on the forum and vice versa.

You can follow me on twitter at http://twitter.com/b_roll_net. This is my personal account. We're working on an automated feed and will have that up and running soon.

All the best,

kev

 

[cyndygreen1]

Just because people stop to look at a fight doesn't mean it's a good thing.

 

[Nino]

Just because people stop to look at a fight doesn't mean it's a good thing.

These weren’t exactly the Ali-Frazier fight. 21,000 people just didn’t stop what they were doing to read what a bunch of cameramen were arguing about it.

Read some of those threads that I linked above, and many more similar that I didn't bothered to post the link. One got over 200 replies. Yes, people were throwing punches at each other but there was also a wealth of information being exchanged, more that B-roll had ever seen before and have never seen again. We weren't talking about which toy camera to buy, we were arguing about the future of this professions, both about the economical future as well as the technical aspect of the future. If you go on an read you'll see that all those referred to as troublemakers were absolutely right, and we are all still in business. Those who argued against us are now nowhere to be found, meaning out of business.

If you look at the list of contributors you’ll see that’s also the list of B-roll MIAs. Proving my theory of why bother to argue about a wrong thread and also have to argue with Monday morning quarterbacks criticizing what you said. Keep in mind that most of the BE NICE brigade never contributes in any way to the going discussions, they just criticized. We have absolutely nothing to gain by arguing on two fronts, if sharing our years of knowledge for free isn't appreciated, screw it, we take it someplace else to people who appreciate it. Again, once the main talents are gone so is the knowledge that enriched B-roll. There’s no reasons for newcomers to stick around, unless of course they want to know what camera to buy.

This is just one of the dozen of emails I received in the last few days after my postings on this thread, coming of course by one of the best contributors B-roll ever had. When he left a lot of knowledge when with him.

Nino

In two words: RIGHT ON.

I left because I was shouted down by idiots and called "mean" by crybabies with thin skin. Why bother continuing to contribute? I know what I did to make myself a success. If other people are more worried about their feelings than listening to the truth, let 'em rot.

I applaud your latest entry, but we both know it faces the inevitable shoot-down by whiners.

Damn, man. I had people that kicked my ass in this business. All these newbies think their **** don't stink and get all bent out of shape when you hit them with harsh realities.

Anyway, nice response.

My question to my critics is still there.

What would you have done if you know that a thread is misleading, tell the poster that he is wrong and when the argument start and he tells you in not so nice words that you don't know what you're talking about it, because when two people argue a point soon or later an argument will start. Would you critics chicken out and let him go on and be misleading? Great help to newcomers that would be.

 

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To all...

Can we please stop this from being a finger pointing match (I work in DC and deal with that enough).

Can we stop saying "it ain't me - it's you" - and try to find a potential solution?

What is missing - that could help bring back valuable discussion? And who's in for helping make it better?

Thanks to all...

kev