Large Sensors Camera Rates

[Necktie Boy]

Since there has been plenty of talk about using large sensor camera, what is the going rate? Are you charging extra for the DOF? What about shooting 2k or better? Do you charge extra for the recorder? The extra lenses used?

I would treat it like a "film shoot" and charge a "film rate" over a video rate.
But that is me.

Thanks

 

[Run&Gun]

Are you talking Alexa & F65 territory or C300 & F3/F5 territory? All large sensor cameras, BUT completely different ballparks. I can't speak about the Alexa ballpark, but I have a C300 with all the goodies(Cine Primes, FF, build-up, etc.) and I bill my full HD rate. A lot of people don't want to pay a "full rate" because the cameras aren't as "expensive", but that's bull… The bodies themselves aren't as much as an ENG cam back in the day, but by the time you add the accessories to make it useable and factor in the glass, you're WAY over "just $13,999" for a camera(hell, an F55 body alone is more than my 2700 body so you should have no problem billing a full rate for that). I have probably at least another $3k to $5k in accessories for mine not counting the $10k-$12k or so in still lenses and the $25k worth of cine lenses. So, just on cost alone, it's worth as much as a "full size cam" package. We should really be getting more because they are harder cameras to shoot with, ESPECIALLY when clients want to do things the old "ENG/run & gun" way. Bottom line, I ask at least my going rate: $2300 two-man/$1800 one-man.

 

[Douglas]

My rate is always the same regardless of camera.

 

[Cameradude]

While I've heard of folks working for less because "the camera costs less", like Run&Gun said; there is more to it than the cost of the camera. A $15,000 body requires another $5,000 in support gear, and then some sort of lens package that will run you from $10,000 - $35,000 depending on the quality of glass purchased.

Like I've said before; in the old days you bought a $60,000 Betacam and shot for everyone, but today you have to buy three $20,000 cameras (P2, XDCAM, C300, F5, etc.) to serve the same clients.

To answer your question, most of us are asking the same price we do for a "traditional 2/3" ENG camera". That rate in my market is $1800 - $2100 for a two man crew, and $1250 - $1600 for a one man band.

 

[Necktie Boy]

My bad...C100/300/500....F3/F5/F55

I believe that you should charge more since you have to bring a collection of lenses to the shoot. It's a shame not to use a prime. Even if you are only shooting HD. And all those accessories to be able to use as an ENG camera.

Thans for the feedback!

Doug,

You must charge more when you shoot 4k?

 

[Douglas]

Doug, You must charge more when you shoot 4k?

Nope. 4K, 2K, or HD, makes no difference to me. It's just a flip of a switch, so no reason there should be any price difference. Clients are buying my time, the equipment is just a tool to get the job done.

 

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Then you have very enlightened clients, and a well deserved niche. For every one of yours that is so flexible, though, there are many other clients out there who religiously parse the value of the gear to be provided on the shoot, and will not pay Alexa rates for an EX-3 shoot, no matter who is manning the video helm.

 

[Douglas]

Perhaps you didn't read my previous posting. I don't charge different rates for different cameras, so there is no "EX3" rate and "Alexa" rate. There's one rate for any camera I own and I don't care what codec, frame size, or any other options the client wants me to set it for. It's all the same to me. And if I don't own the camera requested, then I turn down the job.

BTW, I even brought my prompter to a 4K shoot last week at no extra charge because I knew we'd get finished 3-4 hours faster -- and I was right.

 

[Tv Shooter]

I get the same rate using an Ex1 this week as I get using my HDX900 tomorrow. It's not the wand, it's the magician waving it.

 

[Cameradude]

"...It's not the wand, it's the magician waving it....."

Love the quote!!

I tell people that a carpenter does not charge more or less if they are using a hammer or a nail gun!!

Today I had a client ask me about my rate with the C300 for a shoot later this month. I told them my rate was the same whether I brought an HDX900, P2 camera, XDCAM, C300, or a Betacam. They were cool with that and expressed that some folks were charging more or less for the C300 package, but wanted to make sure their quote to the end clients was spot on.

 

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Well, sure, it's always a dance between what you want and what the market will bear. But at least in the cable world that I mostly reside in, I've had numerous conversations with producers and even production managers where it's made clear that the networks (and often the production companies themselves) recognize that the day rate for a shoot is greatly influenced by the cost of camera platform. And as gear has dropped from the Betacam 600 and HDcams pricesof olde, so has much of their willingness to continue to pay the same flat rate for lesser priced cameras.

As I said before, Doug, that's a nice niche to be in; to be able to pick a very limited set of platforms and if they can't be convinced to use it, you pass on the shoot. I don't chase work nearly as much as I used to, but I still run into the platform issue where if I can convince a client that wanted to shoot with an HDX900 to use the F3 or something else, they won't pay the same day rate as if I supplied the 900.

Of course, maybe the problem lies with the client.... ;}

Now the next question for the Flat Rate Society: if you have an EX-1, but have to rent the HDX900 for a shoot, do you still charge the same rate, or does this only apply to cameras commonly found in the office?

 

[Run&Gun]

I'm with Doug, If I don't own the camera, I'm not going to rent it. I feel I can cover most bases in the network world, at this point. I own (still…) a D50 widescreen Betacam, a tape VariCam, two P2 VariCams and a C300. Plus a NanoFlash. With the exception of the Betacam, which hasn't gone out since probably 2012, I bill the same for any of the other four HD cameras. As others have said, "it's not the wand, it's the magician", but I totally get what you're saying about clients equating rates to the cost of the equipment being used. If they want to play the game that way, I can add up the cost of all the gear I take on a C300 shoot vs. a VariCam shoot and it's pretty much a wash. Plus, as I said earlier, it's a harder camera to shoot with, so you have the "PITA Factor" to add in and make up the difference .

Me and Cameradude spent three of our four shoot days last week shooting sit-downs and a multi-person, multi-cam specialty piece. I looked around at some of the other rooms/set-ups and I looked at him and said "We are worth every damn penny we charge". We were probably the highest paid crew there, but our set-ups were head-and-shoulders above the rest and they had nothing to do with the cameras being used. Now I'd be lying or naive if I said the cameras didn't have an effect on the end product, but they were there to capture what WE created. We shot two days with C300's and two with P2 Vari's. My producer really didn't care which cameras we used(he never brought different cameras up), he just wanted the results and trusted my judgment and recommendations and left totally happy.

I wish all producers were as trusting...

 

[Cameradude]

Why is there yet another thread where folks ask about rates and I am the only person who is brave enough to speak of an actual number......LOL!!!!

Some folks are charging "a la carte" for camera, lenses, shoulder rigs, matte box, etc. I quoted a job today and the producer wanted to make sure that the lens package was included and not billed separately. She said that had been an issue in the past with a crew. The job was quoted at $1600 for just me with my camera, grip, lighting package (they provided the soundman with gear, producer, grip) and they never batted an eye or argued about the price.

To contrast that, in December I had an "LA cable reality show" want a 12 hour day, my C300 package and me for $1100. Lets just say it took some "negotiating" to get the rate to $1350 for 10 hours. Well below my "asking rate", but considering I was "C camera", with virtually no creative responsibility and no other lighting, grip, or sound gear was involved, I took the gig.

In todays complicated camera world I've settled on a flat rate (not including travel / overtime) for 95% of the gear I own, outside of HMI's and specialty lenses. My rates not the cheapest, not the most expenses, but there are no surprises and clients really seem to like that.

I hope this gives folks some range on what is happening out there.

 

[Kevin Alexander]

In todays complicated camera world I've settled on a flat rate (not including travel / overtime) for 95% of the gear I own, outside of HMI's and specialty lenses.

My market isn't large enough to handle any higher end projects, so I shoot on a FS100 and use a 5D as a backup. I also just purchased a BMCC (the original one) for special projects. But since everything is getting so complicated with cameras I charge a flat rate as well.

The question I have is... Do you deal mostly with crew booking agencies or, say, corporate clients? Are you dealing with people who are used to the standard gear cost + day rate, or people who only want to pay for labor?

 

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Kevin: I do some of each. Whenever possible, I try to just do a flat rate for me and all of my gear. When you start separating out front the labor vs gear charges, you expose yourself to the "I can rent the Super35WonderCam in LA for $300 less" push back from some producers, or the "IN NYC, we only pay our ops $2.75 for an 18 hour day" silliness.

That being said, with a crewing agency, the price is already fixed for you...and they add on their own fee to the end client separate from what you charge. Some of the companies will deduct a finder's fee from your rate, so you have to make sure your net out either way meets your needs.