f-stop

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Tippster

The Fly on the Wall
Umm... I think everyone here who's shot more than one tape knows what f-stops are. I also think that NOT ONE OF US is worried whether they're at a 4.0 or a 5.6 in any given situation. If the shot looks right, shoot it. There's a reason TV lens aperture wheels don't "click" like stills lenses do - sometimes the correct exposure is actually "between" stops, even if your viewfinder display of "Open" or whatever says otherwise.

Your example of shooting in indoor interview w/o lights is a matter we'll discuss after you lose your righteous indignation. We're just having a little Photog fun at your expense. If the VERY light ribbing you've received in this thread bothers you then you're honestly too sensitive for this business...
 

SandRat

Well-known member
Originally posted by zazvideo:
its really strange to me because it sound like a lot of you have never learned about this.
I think getting the right exposure is one of the most important things to do when setting up a shot.
Hmmm ... methinks you are the one who it confused. I don't think television photographers attempt to light subjects for a certain f-stops. Unless you are going for a narrow or wide depth of focus, just get a good exposure without your iris being too far open or closed.

... and please try not to get too offended. We're just trying to get a grip on the jist of your question...believe me, if you were getting flamed on this board, you'd know it.
 

Shaky & Blue

Well-known member
This is funny. This person sounds like a film kid fresh out of school or a production person who has shot little or no news. I'm guessing he either read something about this in American Cinematographer or got it from an instructor who read it in American Cinematographer. It's probable that many people here really don't have any idea what he's talking about, because what he's talking about is mostly irrelevant to shooting news.

When I was in film school, we were taught to light for a specific T-stop. Each lens model has a "sweet spot," a specific combination of aperture, focal length and focus distance that gives you the best looking picture. We were told to shoot tests to find the sweet spot. Then, to maintain a consistent feel throughout a film, we would light for the T-stop that put us in the sweet spot and make the bokeh, or area of the lens that is out of focus, more consistent from shot to shot. It's more consistent with prime lenses, but shooting a consistent T-stop with a zoom still adds a layer of control and a certain consistency to the picture.

When I shot my thesis film, we maintained a consistent T2.8 throughout the picture. And it showed, at least to someone who knew what they were looking at. My 16mm and 35mm features were more run and gun microbudget style productions with inadequate lighting and inadequate time to set it up even if we had had the proper gear, so it was impractical to maintain a constant T-stop. However, I still tried to keep the range of T-stops to a minimum, mostly between T2.8 and T5.6, even if it gave my camera assistants and gaffer a little more work.

But in news? Forget it. There simply isn't enough time. And if there IS enough time for you to dick around with lighting or applying ND to achieve the same exposure on every shot, you're not busy enough. All the film school rules go out the window.

So, the answer to the original question is that the question does not apply. It's irrelevant. With the exception of a handful of people here, we shoot at whatever F-stop we can reasonably get in the given situation.
 

Shaky & Blue

Well-known member
By the way, I can't imagine why you would like shooting at F8. I've never heard of a lens that had a sweet spot that closed.
 

zazvideo

Member
1: im a she not a he.

2: iv been shooting news for 10 years at a station and now am freelance.

3: I have never heard of American Cinematographer.

4: Shaky & Blue “But in news? Forget it. There simply isn't enough time. And if there IS enough time for you to dick around with lighting or applying ND to achieve the same exposure on every shot, you're not busy enough.”

I do understand that this happens but not all the time and I don’t “dick around with lighting or applying ND to achieve the same exposure on every shot “ if you have enough time to do that why not, although iv never dune that.

5: “Umm... I think everyone here who's shot more than one tape knows what f-stops are. I also think that NOT ONE OF US is worried whether they're at a 4.0 or a 5.6 in any given situation. If the shot looks right, shoot it”

wow you must really suck at shooting video

6: could some one just answer the question instead for posting all this other stuff.
 

cinehead

Well-known member
Zaz,

Editor dude is right, Shaky answered your question.

But let me take the reverse approach. If you don't use ND's to adjust for the lighting how else do you compensate to get the optimum exposure at F4 or F8 every time you shoot? Enlighten us, please.

Lastly, at the risk of sounding like someone from Medialine, please proof read your writing before you hit “add reply”.

[ October 27, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: cinehead ]
 

Shaky & Blue

Well-known member
Originally posted by zazvideo:
1: im a she not a he.
Sorry. Since I didn't know your gender, I guess I could have gone gender-neutral and called you "it."

Originally posted by zazvideo:
2: iv been shooting news for 10 years at a station and now am freelance.
And yet you still come across as someone right out of school. The tone of your posts suggests that you feel you have something to prove.

But okay, I'll bite. Explain your aesthetic and tell us about your choices. Why did you choose F8 as one of your preferred stops? For that matter, why did you choose F4 as well? What characteristics made the picture better at those stops than at, say, F2.8 or F5.6?

[ October 27, 2004, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Shaky & Blue ]
 

Widescreen

Well-known member
Zazvideo...you are not making yourself very clear at all. I am surprised that for someone who has been shooting news for 10 yrs, you are asking such a question and having difficulty getting your message across.

f-stop (or f-number) is a measurement of the size of the aperture (opening) of the camera iris. If the aperture is wider, more light enters the lens and the picture is brighter.

F-stops can be a little confusing at first as the numbers do not behave as you would expect. Higher f-stop numbers indicate a smaller aperture diameter - in other words, as the iris opening decreases in size the f-stop number increases.

F-stop settings are normally written with a forward slash like so: f/16. Common f-stops are:

f/1.4, f/2, f/2.8, f/4, f/5.6, f/8, f/11, f/16, and f/22.

Note that a small f-stop (large aperture) results in a small depth of field and a larger f-stop (smaller aperture) gives a large depth of field.

f-stop = focal length / lens opening

Although an iris can be smoothly adjusted from a very small opening to the point of being wide open, certain specific points throughout this range are marked in terms of levels of light transmission. These numerical points are called f-stops. Each f-stop represents the number of times the distance across lens opening must be multiplied to arrive at the lens focal length. Thus, the "f" stands for the factor involved. F-stop numbers are derived from the ratio between the lens opening and the lens focal length.

1.4, 2.0, 2.8, 4.0, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22

<=== more light ~ less light ==>


The larger the f-stop number (the smaller the iris opening), the greater the depth of field will be.

Everyone alters the amount of light source and exposure to suit the specifics of their job. You cant ask what f-stop do you use. Last night I did a shoot where I was on Filter 1, wide open with 9db switched in. Not perfect I know but in that situation it was the best I could get. We need to know whats behind your line of questioning and then others will not think you are taking the piss, or insulting them.
 

focusthis

Well-known member
I'll try again.


Run&gun = f/5.6 for the latitude
Sit down intv with a busy bkgnd = f/2.8(+ some telephoto for shallow DOF)
Spaghetti Western Desert Sunshine = f/"closed" or f/16
Nightside live shot = f/1.7 to also see the background.

Now, riddle me this, what f/stop has been your favorite for the PAST TEN YEARS?
 

quicklad

Well-known member
zazvideo you do need to lighten up a bit.

Shaky & Blue gave a great answer - but I'll try to go further.

Changing the f/stop does two things (which cannot be counteracted by changing your shutter speed).

1st - the f/stop affects your depth of field.
2nd - Most lenses perform better (in terms of sharpness) between 2-4 stops closed down from their "wide-open" aperture.

In many situations - hanging around the middle area of your aperture (f/4 - 8) is fine - and really, as long as you are happy with your exposure -IT DOESN'T MATTER if you are at f/4 or at f/8 (or f/2.8, f/11 etc)

That doesn't mean that we do not make choices about aperture based on specific goals in particular situations. Your question was not really about a specific situation - so it is not easy to answer.

I have never heard of anyone having a favorite stop for "most" shooting - except *maybe* feature film shooting. Even if someone had a favorite stop - it would be lens specific, and format specific. "Most" shooting is so varied and different that it is impossible to have a favorite.

Take interviews, for many, I try to shoot at a wider, or more open, f/stop, to lessen depth of field and throw the background out of focus. But if you're doing an interview where someone is talking about the background, perhaps even referring to it, than you may stop down a bit to increase depth of field and background sharpness. In these cases who has a favorite? It is pick whichever f/stop does what you ned it to at the time.

I am not sure of your other questions which seemed to be about auto v. manual exposure and maybe contrasty interior lighting situations.

Eric
 

Deaf and Blind

Well-known member
Some days you see a name and you just go "i'm sure I have seen that before"
Now ZAZ productions was Jerry Zucker & his brother who produced such favorites as Airplane and Naked Gun. Didn't think it was him.

So I did a little fossick around the web an lo an behold I found this stuff: you know the board Zack?
http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=60017&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart=#60017

http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/showprofile.php?Cat=&User=10978&page=1&what=showmembers

Now Zack if you want to learn some manners and be nice you could gain heaps of useful information here.
Throwing your name of ZAZ Video productions around the web or your yahoo address is a good way to track your little electronic foot-steps and faux pas. This is almost as good as getting a business card printed up during your first week at film school claiming to be be a D.O.P.
I'm sure Lyndonville Vermont has some nice attributes but maybe a telephone line out of there is not such a good one.
You may want to reconsider the "production company" name you know how funny some of those crusty old people are in Hollywood.
 

SandRat

Well-known member
Originally posted by Deaf and Blind:
Some days you see a name and you just go "i'm sure I have seen that before"
Now ZAZ productions was Jerry Zucker & his brother who produced such favorites as Airplane and Naked Gun. Didn't think it was him.

So I did a little fossick around the web an lo an behold I found this stuff: you know the board Zack?
http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=60017&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart=#60017

http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/showprofile.php?Cat=&User=10978&page=1&what=showmembers

Good research ... here's another interesting nugget just in case Zack wants to deny she/he is the person you've connected he/she to.

On October the 15th you posted this in eumforums about P2 cams:
"The 4GB (AJ-P2C004S) regular speed I think you'll be able to get for around $750/each"

do you mean $750.00 or $7.50????
Then three days later on b-roll.net you post this in a topic about P2 cams.
i read that they are $750.00 per 15 minutes but i could be wrong.
Interesting...next, for a ten year vet, you ask funny questions.
What exactly does the 2x extender do?
 

addixicon

Well-known member
Zaz? Some interesting accusations against you and this popular thread. First, "How do you feel about this overwhelming response?" Second, "Would you care to respond to the 'ten year vet' charges?, and if so, what have you been doing for ten years?"
"ZAZ, Outed? or Expert?, details coming up!"
 

Tippster

The Fly on the Wall
Originally posted by zazvideo:
...wow you must really suck at shooting video...
Goddamn right. And proud of it. :D :D :D

Gotta give this Troll credit, though. It got us to add another entry into the "Photog 101" handbook we oughtta put together...

We can now refer people to this thread when they ask "what are those funny numbers on the lens for?"
 

2000lux

Well-known member
I'm still waiting for one of the ole' regulars to jump in an yell "Arpil Fools!" However, it ain't spring any more.

if your shooting a sit down interview with some one in doors with no lights and the picture in your view finder is to dark and it says ?open? than you put up a light or turn the filter so the says 5.8 or some other number, other than open?it dues not really matter if you use auto or manual. Are you still confused?
EXREMELY! If the vetrans who have been shooting video for the networks for over ten years can't figure out what you're asking, you're either...
A: Too brilliant for them to understand (doubtful).
B: Having trouble articulating what you mean (by your typos and wording I would belive that English is not your first language) or...
C: You haven't learned any thing about F stops after shooting for ten years.

What kind of camera are you using (and please don't say "A video camera")? I mean what model, or at least can you tell us if it's a palmcorder, a broadcast camera (DVC PRO, Beta SP, etc) a prosumer camera (S)VHS, Hi8...? I don't know many cameras that tell you to "open." My SX will say "Low Light" if I need to gain up or open the iris. What I really want to know is if you have a broadcast style lense with the F stops marked on it, or some other kind of set up where it just tells you in the viewfinder or some thing.

Widescreen and Focusthis answered your question really. Once you understand the concept of depth of field, you learn to manipulate the light with filters, shutter speeds, teleconverters, gain, etc, to get the image you want.

The reason these people are making fun of you is that there is no optimal F stop for shooting everything. That's why lenses have irises that offer a range of apetures. The best F stop is the one that will give you the image you're looking for.

If you want a low depth of field in order to focus the viewer's attention on the one thing in focus in the shot (your interview subject, a golf ball, etc), open up the lens to a low F stop and adjust the camera until it's exposed right. If you're shooting some thing like a landscape where you want every thing in focus; close the iris down to the highest F stop you can, and adjust the camera accordingly. If you're following action and can't keep the subject in focus with out at least some depth of field, but want to lose the deep background, try for an F stop between maybe 8 and 5.6.

Many of the folks on this board are local news shooters who don't have the luxury of time to think about what F stop they want to use. They let the circumstances (the available light) dictate the F stop. For example, if you're shooting a road accident you generally want a high F stop so the viewer can see all the details. Hence you use the filter that will get you the most light (but not so much that you're over exposed, and of couse one that is for the proper color temperature), close down your iris as much as you can, and go for it.

Some lenses, especially the cheap ones, are a little soft at the extreme ends of the iris range (wide open, or closed down). However there is no usiversal rule for all lenses. I wouldn't worry about that much unless you can.

What is it that you like about F4 or F8? I like ~F3 or less for most interviews, but at least F11 for most landscapes depending on what I want to see in the foreground. One of my staple shots for a golf package is to get super tight on the ball so that it practically fills the screen, with as little DoF as possible, and a shutter speed of around 100 or 125. It makes for a great nat pop shot when they whack it and you see the tee flip in the air, etc. Campaign signs on the lawn I susally go for a mid range F stop like 8 or 5.6 so the viewer's attention is foused mainly on the signs, not the house behind it...

[ November 01, 2004, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: 2000lux ]
 
It got us to add another entry into the "Photog 101" handbook we oughtta put together...
Damn right! I think Widescreen may have just given a better lecture on f-stop basics than I got in four expensive years of college......
 
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