Breaking Unions and Pork

[Go Daddy]

GM is a prime current example. There is no possible way GM can survive with it's current union hands tied behind it's backs. The unions everywhere have to make choices. It's either fight to the death of the company, or fight for the survival of the company itself so jobs aren't lost. Unions have got to go, and they will one way or the the other. The "other," is bankruptcy. If GM can't rid itself of union pork on it's back, it will file bankruptcy and the unions contract will die anyway.

Unions are suffocating business and business has to rid itself of this bind and hire people who just want a job. One way or the other, unions will have to die.

 

[Chugach3DGuy]

Unions have their place, and in the past, have done quite a bit of good for the average working guy. Things were pretty bad back in the early 20th century before unions started to kick in. Chicago Stockyards anyone? But- unions need to be in balance with management. I think part of GM's problem is that they continued to push large gas guzzler vehicles while the majority of people started to look more to smaller, fuel-efficient models. The other part of the problem is that you have a bunch of guys working in relatively low level positions pulling in upwards of $70/hr. Don't get me wrong, because I'm looking forward to the day when I can start pulling in that kind of money, but when the low-end of the pay scale gets that high, there's no way you can deliver a low-priced product that can compete with the stuff other auto makers are putting out.

So, I don't think the answer is to get rid of unions all together- that would be bad, and it would usher in another era of working for ridiculously low wages and horrendous hours. Some companies are already trying to go that way. Check out Wal-Mart for example. We can't get rid of unions all together, but we can't let them run amok with reckless abandon.

 

[Go Daddy]

Opinions

Unions have their place, and in the past, have done quite a bit of good for the average working guy. Things were pretty bad back in the early 20th century before unions started to kick in. Chicago Stockyards anyone? But- unions need to be in balance with management. I think part of GM's problem is that they continued to push large gas guzzler vehicles while the majority of people started to look more to smaller, fuel-efficient models. The other part of the problem is that you have a bunch of guys working in relatively low level positions pulling in upwards of $70/hr. Don't get me wrong, because I'm looking forward to the day when I can start pulling in that kind of money, but when the low-end of the pay scale gets that high, there's no way you can deliver a low-priced product that can compete with the stuff other auto makers are putting out.

So, I don't think the answer is to get rid of unions all together- that would be bad, and it would usher in another era of working for ridiculously low wages and horrendous hours. Some companies are already trying to go that way. Check out Wal-Mart for example. We can't get rid of unions all together, but we can't let them run amok with reckless abandon.

Makes little to no difference what any of us "think," unions with wage and healthcare straps on the wrists of management are going to force bankruptcy which will dissolve the union regardless of the past. The time to save jobs and companies viability is HERE and it is NOW. Unions are but one part of the problem, but it is one problem that cannot be allowed to continue. Unions must go and they will go, regardless of their intended value to any of us in the past, or future. The time to save business had better be the here and now, or a lot of you will be talking about the business you used to be in. For me, I'm prepared as much as I can be. I'm hedged with stocks and shorting everything in site. Doing well. Stops are in. Money in the bank and no mortgages. To be honest I would like to see gas at 10-15 dollars a gallon, bread at 5 bucks a loaf, cigarettes at 200 a pack, and beer at 450 a six pack. Let god sort it out. There has to be a consequences for our trip towards socialism and believe you me, it's going to hurt and hurt real bad all those who ushered it in far worse than it will me. That wont be thunder you hear in the distance, that will be me laughing my ass off at what the left did to themselves.

Welcome to "change!!!"

LMAO

 

[Chugach3DGuy]

What about the Big Picture?

Unions must go and they will go, regardless of their intended value to any of us in the past, or future.

So say there's a mandate that all unions dissolve immediately. How wonderful do you think things would be then for blue-collar workers? True, companies like GM won't be forced to continue paying its workers $70/ hr, but whats to stop them from paying their workers $7.50/hr? Then what? It could be just like Wal-Mart, where most of the employees that work there can't even afford to buy necessary items from their own employer?

Speaking of Wal-Mart, they've been complaining about the high costs of health-care insurance benefits for a while. Some stores have told their employees that their wages are so low, that it would better for them to sign up for state-funded programs such as Medicare! So now, your tax dollars go to pay for those people who ARE working, but under-employed? I've heard your rants about your tax dollars before.

This isn't to say that EVERY company will operate like Wal-Mart, but being the largest retailer in the world, and one of the largest private employers in the world, many companies do look up to Wal-Mart as a model. I'm using them as an example here because of their fierce anti-union stance and because of their sheer size.

Like I said, I think there needs to be a balance. If unions go away, there will be some nasty stuff going down.

 

[Wideangle]

I agree. there needs to be balance. In the case of GM, they need to sit down with the Unions and
lay their cards on the table. I think that one of the major problems with Unions is the adversarial
atmosphere they create between workers and management. It becomes an obstacle to unity
of purpose. Granted, the UAW has nothing to do with the models they are asked to produce.
But sometimes they over reach and lose sight of the hand that feeds them. I think in many
companies, it would benefit both sides to sit down and discuss ways to keep the companies
going. Concessions sure beat unemployment. .

 

[Dble(Punched)Vision]

Moderation in all things

End Unions. Bail out Wall Street. Welfare. Deregulation. All bad ideas. Many ideas seem good on paper before you factor in the human element: greed.

The answer for many problems we face now is moderation. I hate tear-jerk legislation and I hate knee-jerk hatchet plans both are emotional responses to complex troubles.

To the topic: I've been in union shops and non-union shops. There are pluses and minuses to both. I'd never support the elimination of unions just like I would never support the elimination of free-choice.

 

[Go Daddy]

Bada Bing Bada Boom

End Unions. Bail out Wall Street. Welfare. Deregulation. All bad ideas. Many ideas seem good on paper before you factor in the human element: greed.

The answer for many problems we face now is moderation. I hate tear-jerk legislation and I hate knee-jerk hatchet plans both are emotional responses to complex troubles.

To the topic: I've been in union shops and non-union shops. There are pluses and minuses to both. I'd never support the elimination of unions just like I would never support the elimination of free-choice.

Here's the deal. When you are 1 hour from starving to death, demanding a clean knife and fork to eat a meal that is going to save your life is ridiculous. GM needs (and we're just talking GM, there are dozens of corps about to fail)GM needs to sit down with the UAW and have a 5 minute meeting with a timer. In that meeting GM needs to tell the union they have 2 choices and both of them will mean there will never be another meeting. First choice is either agree to dissolve the current contract and some jobs will be saved and they might be able to continue to make cars. Choice number 2 is to raise concerns and alternatives to dissolving the contract, and GM immediately files for bankruptcy and the contract dissolves in the process. The union would then have the remaining 2 minutes to decide how they want to handle it, then before they are escorted out of the building they must pay for the coffee they drank durring the meeting.

Case closed. GM survives, SOME jobs are saved, and the union guys get to see what it's like to have to work again. Bada bing, bada boom.

This is the "change," you lefties are headed for so you had better find a way to stomach it. It's far too late for many of these changes and not early enough for the rest. Change baby.. Boooooo yaaaaa!

Short every stock you can and make hay while these liberals destroy the rest of our economy. I'm making a killing on the uprise in socialism and the demise of democracy.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

 

[Grip]

"As for you comment about free choice, I've never understood why, if I go to work somewhere where they have a union, that I am mandated to join that union in order to work there."


Your choice is to find another job, OR take a job where you are part of something. Who do you think fights more for safety in the workplace, OSHA or the Unions? And if you go work some where and enjoy the safety and higher wages that unions bring, why should you not support that. You want to stand under the umbrella but not take a turn holding it?


So wait, is it the unions fault that the higher ups at GM thought it was a good idea to make one giant gas guzzling SUV after another while the competition was reading the world needs?

Unions are not perfect, what is? But this country and the people they protect would be in a lot worse shape without unions.

Fact is if you work with a union, you will only see most of the bad, the good, comes from the meetings behind closed doors, as the greedy try to think of ways to screw you over.

 

[acton]

Just so long as the executives don't have to cut back on anything. They deserve those bonuses and car allowances. I'd hate to see them have to sacrifice something in this process. Why the leadership they've shown is outstanding. So lets go and kick the **** out of the working man and help those at the top make those bonuses that they deserve.

http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNews/idUSN0626693220080306

 

[Chicago Dog]

I kind of find it funny people still respond to Go Daddy/Lake4/Mighty Dyckerson like he's not a troll.

 

[Freddie Mercury]

Thought I would respond to a response

I kind of find it funny people still respond to Go Daddy/Lake4/Mighty Dyckerson like he's not a troll.

Dyckerson was sometimes funny and occassionally witty. I don't see that here. (actually with the ignore function, I don't see anything anymore)

 

[Go Daddy]

Simply Said, Unions Must Die.

Union contracts at a time like this with an economy like we have, are the cancer that will kill business with a demoncrat in the white house. And they will one way or another. The day unions had any sort of pull is long over.

 

[Chugach3DGuy]

Umm... No they don't

And yet, we can also see that UPS, who's entire package handling workforce is made of members of the Teamsters, is still bigger and better than FedEx, which is a non-union shop. UPS is still making money AND has an enormous amount of union employees. Obviously they're doing something right. The transportation and shipping industry is different from the auto industry, but you can still draw some parallels.

You can't get rid of every ALL unions everywhere. If you do, there's nothing to stop any of these companies from paying Wal-Mart wages. Just sayin'...

 

[at the plate]

yup

yup, it was the UAW rank & file that told GM to continue keep making 5 different brands of the exact same car 40 years after that business model was even viable. "Let's make the same bad cars and sell them as a Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, Cadillac & Saturn (let's not forget GMC)."
Now that's brilliant business sense that hasn't worked since 1960. They deserve to take a dive for their mismanagement alone.
Did management lock themselves in a time capsule?

Then along came Toyota, Honda, Nissan, VW & BMW to actually build cars that people want to buy in the USA . They can alter models to meet the changing tastes of the masses in half the time that GM or Ford can.

What are the managers of the big three thinking?
a Caliber vs. a Corolla. Have you ever driven a Caliber? Then you'll know.
a Malibu vs.a Camry.
a Lexus vs. Caddy.
a hummer which is really nothing more than a 8 mpg slug suburban/ tahoe with big fender skin and plastic interior.
a venture vs. sienna. GM could never get the minivan concept right, EVER.

Its all perspective and the UAW doesn't play a role in US automaker's corporate culture of self destruction.

any wonder why people would rather buy a Toyota. Toyota has only 3 targeted, yet different brands that sell to demographic groups. Its not a Chevcadpontibuick. Put three holes on the side of a POS Malibu and call it a POS Buick Century and yet its still a POS. Now, that's smart business strategy. And if Toyota had to shut down Scion because it no longer sells to the young market its aimed at, do you think Toyota would crawl to congress to ask for cash. No, they would fold the operation and move on.

The last decent idea that Detroit came up with was the Caravan and Chrysler has even screwed that pooch with the changes they made to the Caravan this year. Big three innovation, outside the box thinking, died with the '65 Mustang.

oh. and GM execs actually put their signature on the UAW contracts to renew them time after time with little or no backbone at the bargaining table. The UAW hardly held a meat cleaver to the hand of GM execs holding the pen that signed their CBAs all of these years. so you can't blindly blame the unions because the automakers signed off on the deals. The unions are only a 1/4 of the problem. The management of the big three still believes "Leave it to Beaver" is how Americans still think.

Give them 25B to make more horrid Dodge Calibers and E85 Trucks that still get 15mpg and they can't sell them. Keep thinking that people still want to buy Pontiacs & Buicks. Do you really think Tiger Woods would set foot in a Buick if they didn't have an endorsement deal with him? Chevy Volt? yeah that's the ticket for GM to crawl out from under their own rock. NO. http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4AI8C520081119?sp=true
.....and you want to ONLY blame the unions. how perceptive.

 

[Go Daddy]

I Would Like To See GM File Chapter 11

And break the union contract. The UAW is a cancer that needs to be treated with bankruptcy chemo. Then we need to work on getting rid of the airline unions and get this country and business back into the right to work mentality. Unions are a cancer.

 

[at the plate]

The UAW is a cancer ... Unions are a cancer.

The UAW is just a "skin cancer" compared to the deep malignancy of the corporate culture carcinoma at the big three. Breaking the union will NOT fix the horrendous management culture that still has its head stuck in a 1950s business model mentality. The big three need to drastically revise their way of doing business. The UAW is just a pimple on the body of the problem.

The fact that these CEOs have the unmitigated gall to fly in their corporate jets to Washington to beg for bailout money just shows that they are totally clueless. It is an insult to every American. It probably cost the automakers more than 100K just to have their CEOs appear before congress for a day. ....and you're whining about the assembly line workers?

Your example of the airlines is more bufoonery. The big air carriers restructured in bankruptcies, then handcuffed their unions and low and behold they're still bleeding cash. They'll be next on "capital" hill asking for part of you, your kids and your grandkids paychecks. The pilots union is the only one hanging on. Would you want to pay your pilots meager wages? I certainly wouldn't want a bitter pilot that was forced to take a 60% paycut to fly my flight. After all, they're the ones holding you up in the air safely not putting fries in the deep fryer.

"I think I'm OK where I am," Ford's CEO Mulally said when asked if he was willing to cut his own salary. Mulally earned more than $22 million in 2007" ....and you're whining about the assembly line workers?
The UAW is a simpleton's target. Let's fix the malfunctioning brain of the big three first. Get a clue.

 

[Chugach3DGuy]

Do we need more examples?

How about Southwest Airlines. They have union employees, and holy crap- they're making a profit! The way things have been going, its surprising to hear that they're not only weathering the storm, but they're doing pretty good at it too!

At the plate's post hits it right on the nose. The unions aren't forcing the kind of decisions to bring these businesses to their knees. They may not be perfect, but the management side has no ground to stand on and point fingers. Like ATP says, maybe if they started going after what their customers WANT instead of telling them what they want with 5 different brands of the SAME THING, they might be better off.

Even if you get rid of the unions, bad business practices will still fail. I'm no business mogul, but I can at least understand THAT.

 

[Wideangle]

What convinced me was the fact that these three clowns fly down from Detroit in private jets begging for money. When asked by a congressman if they would show of hands decide to do away with their
corporate jets, no one of course raised a hand. How can you place the blame squarely on the unions when management is so obviously out of touch with reality? You are looking at around $20,000 bucks per
plane to make the short flight to DC versus maybe $800 to a $1000.00 for first class commercial. Even much less if God forbid they slummed it in coach. What were they thinking???

 

[rebelfotog]

When comparing japanese auto makers and US auto makes you need to look at what and who they value. The japanese work on a bottom up mentality, which means the worker is the most important part of the equation. The US model is the exact oppisite. I have a friend who works for GM and he was telling me that if I wanted to get a job there that I would be starting at almost $5/hr less than what he started at. Some unions are good, and some are bad. The unions have become a business onto themselves. Its the "greed is good" mentality that needs to be delt with. I just think its funny that congress said that "The Big 3" are being mis-managed and poorly run and they are not going to get any bail out money, but isn't it mis-managed banks that got us in this mess in the first place? But they get billions in bailout money and are still going on expensive get-a-ways. I agree that the unions are not the entire problem, they just need to go back and re-examine their purpouse. Like most people on this board I have work for compaines that have unions and companies and didn't. I would rather have the union and not need it than need it an not have it.

 

[Go Daddy]

Pilots.

The UAW is just a "skin cancer" compared to the deep malignancy of the corporate culture carcinoma at the big three. Breaking the union will NOT fix the horrendous management culture that still has its head stuck in a 1950s business model mentality. The big three need to drastically revise their way of doing business. The UAW is just a pimple on the body of the problem.

The fact that these CEOs have the unmitigated gall to fly in their corporate jets to Washington to beg for bailout money just shows that they are totally clueless. It is an insult to every American. It probably cost the automakers more than 100K just to have their CEOs appear before congress for a day. ....and you're whining about the assembly line workers?

Your example of the airlines is more bufoonery. The big air carriers restructured in bankruptcies, then handcuffed their unions and low and behold they're still bleeding cash. They'll be next on "capital" hill asking for part of you, your kids and your grandkids paychecks. The pilots union is the only one hanging on. Would you want to pay your pilots meager wages? I certainly wouldn't want a bitter pilot that was forced to take a 60% paycut to fly my flight. After all, they're the ones holding you up in the air safely not putting fries in the deep fryer.

"I think I'm OK where I am," Ford's CEO Mulally said when asked if he was willing to cut his own salary. Mulally earned more than $22 million in 2007" ....and you're whining about the assembly line workers?
The UAW is a simpleton's target. Let's fix the malfunctioning brain of the big three first. Get a clue.

You have every pilot with over 25 yrs seniority taking home a million dollar retirement plan that they contributed ZERO to. Completely company sponsored and insures they walk away a millionaire via the pilots union. By your analogy this should make them healthy, happy and wise. Fact is, there is no such thing as a happy pilot. They are amongst the most whiney, bitter, hate filled for corporation human beings on the planet. Fk em. Have you ever been hired by "the working man," on the assembly line ? NO you haven't. It's the ceos, the management, the people making the big bucks who hire you and maintain companies that are profit driven so they can KEEP YOU employed. The clue you advise to get is the one that escapes you. Poor people don't create jobs, they suck down every ounce of everything they can get handed to them. Rich people create jobs. Profit isn't a four letter word, dumb IS. Stop being a four letter word.