Pricing Structures

[At the scene]

Spot on with what? Here's a dude so pathetic that he responds to my posts knowing he's on my ignore list.

Sorry man but it's true. Except for the cheating part, I did not view the entries.

Come on, who puts up a picture of stuffing computers in a hatchback if they didn't want some kind of response.

Who post a picture so ridiculous of a handy cam taped to handlebars of a bicycle and yet doesn't like the response.

Who post pictures so ridiculous of a tripod on rolling chairs if they didn't want a response.

You come on here constantly bragging about your A.B. shoots but then can't stand the criticism.

You just want the attention! So yes Chicago Dog was SPOT ON!





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[grinner]

I dunno, man. Maybe I'm just laid back and know how to laugh at myself. I've never minded abusing gear... or cars.
Calling a liar spot on is a stretch though.

 

[SoMissTV]

'Tis better to remain silent and let others wonder if you are a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

 

[Chicago Dog]

It doesn't take a genious

You mean "genius."

... to understand that the way to gain clients is to quote them a price better than what they are currently paying. Its common sense and, I think most would agree, is GOOD ADVICE to someone just starting out. Of course the "established" guys with a long list of clients aren't going to like it but, frankly, I could care less. Deal with it.

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on a second.

First, you claim the best business advice is to offer the same product for a cheaper rate. Like it or not, you're undercutting others. That's the word for it in our business. Wether it's $1 or $100, you're still undercutting someone else.

But then, after you claim undercutting is "GOOD ADVICE," you go on to say the established guys with long lists of clients won't like your "GOOD ADVICE." Did you ever stop to think why the established guys have long lists of clients?

You certainly seem to be happy offering up half-assed advice and contradicting it seconds later in the very next sentence, hoping nobody would notice.

I hope you don't work in my town. What networking connections you've made will dry up damn quick when they figure out you're undercutting them and telling others it's okay to do the same.

Those who undercut are stabbing every cameraman in the back, including themselves.

Give that man a prize!

Calling a liar spot on is a stretch though.

I would love to see you explain what I'm lying about. Everything I listed came directly from this forum.

 

[Nino]

Well, to be honest, you often sound more irritated than amused. It's like you feel someone has somehow stepped on your toes.

Take it from this “old guy with a 15 years old Betacam”, as you referred to me. Actually I’m of very good nature, is just that in the last few years I have developed a very low tolerance with low brainers big mouth-know-it-all idiots masquerading themselves as self proclaimed photographer-artists.

The truth is that your work really really sucks and trying to hide yourself behind an imaginary confidentiality agreement that prevents you from showing your real work make you look like an even bigger idiot. Please go sale your BS to your drinking buddies but don’t try to sale it here because the more you talk the lower you sink.

You either are a skilled photographer or you are not, nobody can turn their knowledge on and off at will, if you are skilled then everything you do will look good, even those home movies of yours would, but the truth is that they sucks, even as home movies.

Unless your customers are as stupid as you, nobody with half a brain would pay money for that crap, unless of course you are at the Craiglist level of business so no mater how low your rates are you are still way overpriced for what you have to offer.

If you were smart you would use this board like other intelligent photographers have been doing here for years, tap into the available knowledge and try to improve yourself, but evidently you are not that smart to even realize of how awful your work really is. You are just here to bust your ego trying to impress other while trying to convince yourself that what you do is actually good, evidently is not working very well.

 

[Nino]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, undercutting the competition is just the name of the game in a capitalist society. Bitch and complain all you want but its not going to change. I don't care what you call it I'm not going to stop doing it. But, then again, all of you are so much better than grinner and I so you don't have anything to worry about, right? So why are you bitching and complaining.

As for my "Good Advice", it doesn't matter how good you are, if you're just starting out, potential clients aren't going to know you or how good you are so the only way to get business to prove yourself is to lure clients away from the people they've been doing business with by offering a lower rate. Frankly, I don't care who it pi$$es off. This is business 101 stuff were talking about.

EVERYTHING is changing in this business and I know you old timers don't like us youngsters but, frankly, some of you are starting to sound like my grandfather who bitches about EVERYTHING.

I’ve been reevaluating the time that I spend on this board trying to teach kids how to get a good future out of this business, you guys are way too stupid to understand. The Rosenblum syndrome of “old guys are afraid of young guys” is spreading on this board like wildfire; the exception here is that Rosenblum came out in the open and after several years of preaching this nonsense he admitted that is not working, quality has been, is and will be the most important factor in the capitalistic money making process of this profession. The problem is that it will take few more years for you to understand this, so let me tell you what will happen.

At 64 my work is the best that it has ever been and I’m the busiest that I have ever been, I’m also the most expensive that I have ever been. Clients don’t blink an eye at my rates. In the grand scope of things when you factor-in all the costs related to a production my rates are a minute portion of the budget; the success however of the entire production investment is based on what I’m capable of delivering; always and consistently exceeding client’s expectations. This not only about what goes in and out of my camera but in every minute detail since the moment that I was booked for that assignment.

I attribute my success to the respect that I always had for knowledge and for those more knowledgeable than me; not only those who were older than me when I was in my 20s but even those who were dead for five hundreds years, like the renaissance artists of the 14th and 15th century, those who created immortal techniques that are still alive and widely used on quality productions, techniques that helped me become successful. I truly feel sorry for those of you who do not understand and are missing out on all this.

The last four years have been by far the busiest of my 40 years in this business, thanks all to you guys. As more people like you are bypassing the conventional educational process and started delivering work that until a few years ago didn’t even qualify as substandard, clients, better yet, good paying clients, are finding our services more valuable then ever and are willing to pay us more than ever. In fact there’s a critical shortage of good photographers as older professional started slowing down or retiring. this is an unique window of opportunity for those more intelligent that you guys are and seize the opportunity by leaning now as much as possible and be in an excellent position to fill these voids; while you guys will still try to undercut each other.

If you can not understand this concept then go on and spend the rest of your career trying to get jobs by undercutting your competition and ridicule older professional rather than tap on their knowledge and improve your skills, it will not make a damn difference to me or most veterans as most veterans have no clue that your type of work and these boards even exists, they are too busy working and making money. But for those willing to get better instead of cheaper your cheap work will make a big difference, your method of doing business is the best thing that can happen to them. All they have to do show potential client the difference between theirs and your work and they are in.

 

[Chicago Dog]

But, then again, all of you are so much better than grinner and I so you don't have anything to worry about, right? So why are you bitching and complaining.

Good point! Grinner Hester is an absolute idiot. I can't wait until the production group "sharing an office with him" starts stealing his clients. Of everyone on this forum, you picked a complete moron with which to associate your rationale.

As for my "Good Advice", it doesn't matter how good you are, if you're just starting out, potential clients aren't going to know you or how good you are so the only way to get business to prove yourself is to lure clients away from the people they've been doing business with by offering a lower rate.

Wrong. Like I said before (and many have said before me): networking.

The major, major, major downside to undercutting is burning networking bridges. If you want to undercut another member of the business, that's fine. Ding! You get a client.

How will you fill out the ranks? How will you make other clients? Do you honestly think you're going to keep getting clients by undercutting everyone else?

You're dead wrong if you think so.

Word spreads much more quickly in the freelance community than it does in the business community. Your clients don't give a rat's ass if you don't have more clients. As long as their needs are met, they don't care what you do. To them, you're a means to an end.

The freelance community keeps very close tabs on people who constantly undercut their own. None of them will use you as their back-up if they know you're just going to stab them in the back and undercut them. The freelance community is your number once source for new clients and new work.

But, hey: if you want to impress a few suits on saving them a few bucks, you go right ahead. Nobody's stopping you. Just don't be surprised when they're the only people calling you for anything.

Have you ever stopped to think of the repercussions of undercutting others? Let me break it down for you:

What happens when another guy comes along and undercuts you? You lose the client. The best part? You have no networking contacts to go to. You've pissed them all off with your undercutting tactics. Nobody in their right mind would offer you help; they don't want to lose their clients because of your inability to properly carry yourself in the freelance world.

When I (or anyone else in good standing with other freelancers, for that matter) lose a client, we start making calls. The guys I know would happily throw some work my way. Maybe they need an extra camera? Maybe they accidentally double-booked themselves? Regardless of the reason, they're not worried about me pulling the client behind a closed-door and saying, "Hey -- I can save you a hundred bucks on this shoot right now!"

The fact that I watch out for my freelance friends trumps losing a client to some idiot who thinks undercutting is "just business."

Trust me: I'm not worried about you, Grinner, or how either of you decide to pull stupid stunts. I simply can't sit by and watch you give such stupid "business" advice to a newbie asking a valid question.

Frankly, I don't care who it pi$$es off.

Yeah, well -- good luck with that business plan. Undercutting and badmouthing go hand-in-hand, just like shovels and grave sites. Dig your own!

EVERYTHING is changing in this business and I know you old timers don't like us youngsters but, frankly, some of you are starting to sound like my grandfather who bitches about EVERYTHING.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen you type in this forum.

Undercutting has always existed. Claiming "everything is changing in this business" has nothing to do with the fact that the freelance world has misled folks like you claiming undercutting is the best business tactic. I'm not an old-timer, and I don't even like you. You're bad for everyone's business.

I've quoted this sentence again because it's the most important sentence in the thread. Think about it's meaning. Really -- sit down and ponder it. Try to get it through your thick head:

Those who undercut are stabbing every cameraman in the back, including themselves.

For a guy who talks so much about "Business 101," you sure as hell don't understand why Baltimore Shooter's quote rings such truth.

Let me give you some friendly advice: get a back-up plan. You're not going to last long in your city if you're known as the guy who undercuts everyone else. Like it or not (or "bitch all you want," as you so eloquently put it), most freelance work happens through networking.

 

[CameramanIAm]

Just curious...
iHD are the poster formerly known as
SVP?

 

[SimonW]

Guys, I'd just leave it. There's no getting through to people who are set on undercutting others.

 

[Chicago Dog]

Comparing large businesses to individual freelancers? Thanks for the laugh, iHD. Of everyone contributing to this forum, it sounds like you're the one that could make use of that Business 101 class you keep crying about.

All that aside, I sincerely hope you've got a back-up plan ready. With an attitude and belief-system like yours, it's only a matter of time before your income level is zero.

Poetic justice would be having all your business stolen by someone undercutting you. Where will you turn when that happens? The freelance community will point and laugh at you when you ask for help.

 

[Nino]

For those of you who are a little slow and can't comprehend how undercutting is a business stragety, please read the first link. I will try to simplify as much as possible. Nino and some other veteran freelancers are Netflix with the big customer base. They are the brand name. Me and some of the other younger freelancers are like Blockbuster or Wal-Mart trying to break in and the only way to lure customers is to offer the same service for less. I know most of you can't comprehend what I just said and there really is no other simple way of explaining how this is the nature of business so I'm not going to try anymore. Once again, its capitalism. Look it up in a dictionary.

So basically what you are saying is that you are the Walmart and we are the Neiman Marcus of production? Fair enough; you'll serve the trailer park crowd and we get the educated ones with the fat checkbook.

And, by the way, using a cheaper (smaller) camera does not make anyone less professional. Its not the camera that makes the photographer, its the photographer that makes the photographer.

I tell you what, I’ll think about your equality in professionalism when using a toy camera versus the grown up version next time that I adjust the knee menu so I can give my client a pleasant image within the IRE range so the picture that doesn’t clip out and there are good details throughout, or any of the dozens of menus that allows me to customize and adjust the picture in anyway I want with the objective to provide the client with the very best "professional" work possible. Or is fine tuning a picture too old fashion for you and not Walmart like?

 

[SoMissTV]

iHD-

Blockbuster's stock price is $.37 per share... their business strategy is an act of desperation in an attempt to remain in business. Are you implying that you're in the same financial straits as Blockbuster?

 

[Baltimore Shooter]

From reading this thread, one thing is painfully obvious; film schools need to teach a course in the business side of the business and business ethics.

Warren

 

[Lensmith]

From reading this thread, one thing is painfully obvious; film schools need to teach a course in the business side of the business and business ethics.

Warren

That thought should also apply to any and all Journalism and "communications" classes taught at the university level too.

 

[Lightndp]

What is being missed here is that if you follow iHD's logic... that it's all fair game to undercut and steal the clients of colleagues... you feed a downward spiral where ultimately production values and quality suffer. The environment that freelancers work in is in fact a workplace that is subject to the market. If some people insist on taking a death spiral to that market, the work environment and production values suffer. My guess is that iHD is more than willing to work without a lunch break, that he is willing to eat drive-thru fast fast on shoots, that he will cut corners where ever he can in the name of "hey it's a competitive business". How low can he go? Will he compromise safety ultimately? Will he forego workers compensation coverage for the audio techs he hires? etc. etc. All just to be able to make his rates a bit lower and get the clients away from the colleague next to him.

There is more to being in business, than competing! There is more to it than making the most profit? Being in business is also about making a high production value, healthy, freelance industry that allows us all to do the kind of work we can be proud of. You cannot support that kind of good work environment by just trying to undercut your peers.

There's no doubt that the video iHD did on the HVD camera would have looked (and sounded) better if he had shot it on the full size high definition camera that the client originally asked for. But he chose to offer the client the cost-saving HDV alternative. That's fine, but an opportunity may have been missed, in that had iHD done the project with the higher quality package it would have led to more shoots with that gear and iHD would be owning a higher quality camera package now. Instead he did it with the HDV, it is lower quality, and he will continue to just own the HDV. That's not a good way to develop a better quality package (both equipment and services).

 

[Nino]

iHD, I really dislike these sort of confrontations, but I think you confused the issues here.

Undercutting and offering alternative services are two completely different issues.

Undercutting means going to a client and intentionally offering your services at a lower cost than your competitors. Of course in order to do that you have to know who that particular competitor is and what he charges. That’s unethical and a slippery slope, somebody else will soon come along with even a lower rate and you’ll be soon be complaining about undercutter too.

What you are in reality saying is that you are offering an alternate service to accommodate your client’s budgets.

There’s no such thing as a standard service in any business. If there’s a demand and you can make money go for it. You are actually doing a great service to me by keeping those low budgets out of my way so I don’t have to waste my time talking to these people.

If you’ve seen my posts in the past on the very same subject you’ll then know that I have nothing against it. One of my soundmen also shoot with a small camera, has small light and sound packages and charges less than half of my regular rates; I also send him a lot of work.

BTW, my alternative EX1 package that was intended to bridge and alleviate the jump in rate between SD and HD has netted so far an impressive total of 5 jobs; two of those were my choice because I refused to air travel with my HDX900. It turned out that some of these people were more interested in getting the files in their computer ASAP but skeptical about the small camera. I bought the Nanoflash for the HDX900 and now the EX1 main duty is as a second unmanned camera for interviews. Meaning that I’m geting paid extra for the nanoflash and the second camera.

 

[cameragod]

I agree, there is a big difference in undercutting and offering a alternate packages, also I don’t see anything wrong with offering a special rate or service in rare occasions to favoured clients but specials should be special or they just become a new lower rate.

 

[grinner]

We are all on the same page but some of us don't wanna admit that.
Charge what ya can. Make as much as ya can while working as often as ya can. Figures will vary from person to person and company to company.
Those who get mad about the variations are simply looking for things to gripe about. It really is as easy as charging what you want/need to charge.