Pricing Structures
- Thread starter Mike McLenna
- Start date
Hey "grinner" are you hoping to get in as a second camera on iHDV's next big wedding?
If you have ever looked you would notice I never hide who I am, unlike both of you.
I am only being an asshole because you want to tell the rest of us how you can shoot better than us, and do it so much cheaper. Money isn't everything, but I'm sure my account doesn't envy yours.
If you think your 3 lights and hdv looks just as good as what I shoot then maybe you should continue shooting YouTube videos because you don't quite grasp quality.
Beau Beyerle
If you have ever looked you would notice I never hide who I am, unlike both of you.
I am only being an asshole because you want to tell the rest of us how you can shoot better than us, and do it so much cheaper. Money isn't everything, but I'm sure my account doesn't envy yours.
If you think your 3 lights and hdv looks just as good as what I shoot then maybe you should continue shooting YouTube videos because you don't quite grasp quality.
Beau Beyerle
As a freelancer I hate it when people think the answer is to undercut. The original question asked about rates, a fair one, and the first thing you bring to the table is undercut everyone.
You drive down the market, your choices affect more than you. I'm gonna talk mad **** about you because you do this.
People are coming on this board to get advice, and they should understand who is telling them what and what they do.
To run your mouth about how awesome you are and how you just undercut everyone is awful advice.
My advice, gain clients thru good work and charge a fair rate.
If you want to come steal my clients your welcome to move to Phoenix, I will give you a list.
Note: most require professional gear.
You drive down the market, your choices affect more than you. I'm gonna talk mad **** about you because you do this.
People are coming on this board to get advice, and they should understand who is telling them what and what they do.
To run your mouth about how awesome you are and how you just undercut everyone is awful advice.
My advice, gain clients thru good work and charge a fair rate.
If you want to come steal my clients your welcome to move to Phoenix, I will give you a list.
Note: most require professional gear.
Chugach3DGuy
PRO user
I thought undercutting was something of a slippery slope. It's one thing to shave off $50 here or $100 there, but over time, those numbers add up. As more time goes by, more newcomers come through, and they keep shaving off $100 here and there. Before you know it, the fulcrum between quantity and quality shifts, and your work starts to be more about cranking out projects fast enough just to pay the bills. It becomes incredibly difficult to climb the ladder and upgrade your tool set when you keep having to lower your rates to compete with the guy that has the $75 Home Depot light kit and his trusty Canon HV30. At that point, to me, it feels less like competition and more like a race to the bottom. So, the work begins to lower in value, and clients begin to expect the world handed to them on a silver platter.
As if that's not enough, once you set those incredibly low prices, you're pretty much stuck with them unless you want to risk losing most of those clients. Provided you want to keep them, that is. The other big thing I've learned is the kind of client you attract by having the lowest prices. After 2 years of working for an employer that would buckle and discount prices just to keep and expand his client base, I can tell you that the majority of these clients are anything but nice to work with. Most of these people are so focused on the bottom line that they will sabotage their own project and put out a shoddy product just to save a few bucks. Getting caught in an environment like this causes serious and fast-acting burnout.
I also remember reading something back in the day that said something like "If you have to compete solely on price, you must be lacking in service, value, or quality."
In the end, whether or not you want to undercut your competition is up to you. It is your business, and you'll have to deal with the consequences of making either choice. Personally, I agree more with Warren's reasoning because I think it drives down the value of what we do. Although, I can understand iHD's side of things too. We all have bills to pay and whatnot, and what's good for one isn't necessarily good for the next guy.
As if that's not enough, once you set those incredibly low prices, you're pretty much stuck with them unless you want to risk losing most of those clients. Provided you want to keep them, that is. The other big thing I've learned is the kind of client you attract by having the lowest prices. After 2 years of working for an employer that would buckle and discount prices just to keep and expand his client base, I can tell you that the majority of these clients are anything but nice to work with. Most of these people are so focused on the bottom line that they will sabotage their own project and put out a shoddy product just to save a few bucks. Getting caught in an environment like this causes serious and fast-acting burnout.
I also remember reading something back in the day that said something like "If you have to compete solely on price, you must be lacking in service, value, or quality."
In the end, whether or not you want to undercut your competition is up to you. It is your business, and you'll have to deal with the consequences of making either choice. Personally, I agree more with Warren's reasoning because I think it drives down the value of what we do. Although, I can understand iHD's side of things too. We all have bills to pay and whatnot, and what's good for one isn't necessarily good for the next guy.
SimonW
Well-known member
If your first call is to reduce your prices then you need to ask yourself whether you are in this to make a profit and a living, or whether you are a charity. The cost of equipment, and the amount of equipment needed in order to give a product that is above that of the next guy is increasing.
You need to be offering skills and abilities that the college leaver with a camcorder cannot match. Offer your clients better value, not lower prices. Undercutting is for supermarkets like Walmart, who can afford to operate at a loss in some areas in order to destroy their competition.
You are not Walmart.
I agree 100%. I have a friend who is in exactly that position, and I keep telling him over and over that by reducing his prices all the time and giving in, he is just going to keep working for a certain level of client who expects the world for nothing.
The result is that he is working all the time. The problem is that he has so much work that he never gets any time to himself, and with the low rates he charges he still struggles to make mortgage and bill payments.
Undercutting and putting out ridiculously low prices is a mugs game. If people view themselves as low rent, low skilled, and hence only worth a low day rate, then that is what your clients will think of you too.
Bingo!
You need to be offering skills and abilities that the college leaver with a camcorder cannot match. Offer your clients better value, not lower prices. Undercutting is for supermarkets like Walmart, who can afford to operate at a loss in some areas in order to destroy their competition.
You are not Walmart.
I agree 100%. I have a friend who is in exactly that position, and I keep telling him over and over that by reducing his prices all the time and giving in, he is just going to keep working for a certain level of client who expects the world for nothing.
The result is that he is working all the time. The problem is that he has so much work that he never gets any time to himself, and with the low rates he charges he still struggles to make mortgage and bill payments.
Undercutting and putting out ridiculously low prices is a mugs game. If people view themselves as low rent, low skilled, and hence only worth a low day rate, then that is what your clients will think of you too.
Bingo!
Nino Giannotti
Well-known member
Let me chime in on this subject because I feel is very important in the making of a long successful career.
But first let me point this out about our very own “village idiotâ€
All the self BS that we’ve been enduring about this grinner character about his experience, how busy he is, all the work he does, all the money he makes and this is it?
WOW MAN almost a thousand a day? A boatload of money? It must be one of those tiny inflatable boats for kids. Most good freelancer, or the “older guys†like you call us, wouldn’t even set their alarm clock for that money.
You are playing stickball in a sandlot and trying to talk major league here; you better stick to your game because you are way above your head here.
For the rest of you with more intelligence. If you play the “cheaper game†you’ll go thru your career with a reputation as the cheap guy. Meaning that the value of your work is not based on the quality of your work and the services that you are capable to offer but on how cheaply they can get you to work for them; this of course until somebody else comes around that’s even cheaper.
There’s no loyalty in cheap.
Today there’s something new available to clients looking for cheap-cheap, how about free-free. Just look at Craiglist, the only reason that you see some many ads of clients looking for people to work for free in exchange of getting a demo together, experience and possible future paying jobs is because there are so many “freelancers†out there that would do everything to get their foot into the door. These clients can have an unlimited and unending supply of people working for them for free.
For those of you trying to get clients by undercutting the competition, the guys that are willing to work for free are your real competition.
You don’t get clients by being cheaper than you competitors, you get them by being better than your competitors.
And for those of who are claiming to be hiding your work because you don’t want your competitors to know who your clients are or some kind of imaginary “confidentiality agreementâ€, you are full of it, your work sucks so badly that you are totally embarrassed to show it.
But first let me point this out about our very own “village idiotâ€
All the self BS that we’ve been enduring about this grinner character about his experience, how busy he is, all the work he does, all the money he makes and this is it?
WOW MAN almost a thousand a day? A boatload of money? It must be one of those tiny inflatable boats for kids. Most good freelancer, or the “older guys†like you call us, wouldn’t even set their alarm clock for that money.
You are playing stickball in a sandlot and trying to talk major league here; you better stick to your game because you are way above your head here.
For the rest of you with more intelligence. If you play the “cheaper game†you’ll go thru your career with a reputation as the cheap guy. Meaning that the value of your work is not based on the quality of your work and the services that you are capable to offer but on how cheaply they can get you to work for them; this of course until somebody else comes around that’s even cheaper.
There’s no loyalty in cheap.
Today there’s something new available to clients looking for cheap-cheap, how about free-free. Just look at Craiglist, the only reason that you see some many ads of clients looking for people to work for free in exchange of getting a demo together, experience and possible future paying jobs is because there are so many “freelancers†out there that would do everything to get their foot into the door. These clients can have an unlimited and unending supply of people working for them for free.
For those of you trying to get clients by undercutting the competition, the guys that are willing to work for free are your real competition.
You don’t get clients by being cheaper than you competitors, you get them by being better than your competitors.
And for those of who are claiming to be hiding your work because you don’t want your competitors to know who your clients are or some kind of imaginary “confidentiality agreementâ€, you are full of it, your work sucks so badly that you are totally embarrassed to show it.
grinner
Guest
I don't look at it as undercutting. My price has nothing to do with anyone else. I am simply $150 an hour. Very easy math on my part. If somone has the budget and need for me, that's a match. If they do not, they can shop elsewhere while I get to work on other things. I don't have to make a boatload on every project. I get to do that on other projects and it all works out n the end. While I know some of you old dudes would not roll out of bed for a 3 grand gig, like I said, that introduction is how I get six figure/year clients. I only need a few of those each year. Anything over a quarter a mill a year is fine with me. I have low/no overhead and like to spend time focusing on projects that are fullfilling to me.
Years ago, I was much more agressive. While I did make much more money, I also missed out on my kids growin' up. No thank ya. I may go back to bigger billing once they've flown the coop
...or I may just retire and play everyday.
Regardless, what I charge should not ruffle your feathers any more than what you charge ruffles mine. I simply could not care less. It has nothing to do with me, my worfkflow, or my bottom line.
Years ago, I was much more agressive. While I did make much more money, I also missed out on my kids growin' up. No thank ya. I may go back to bigger billing once they've flown the coop
...or I may just retire and play everyday.
Regardless, what I charge should not ruffle your feathers any more than what you charge ruffles mine. I simply could not care less. It has nothing to do with me, my worfkflow, or my bottom line.
True, but different clients have different budgets.
I'm sure there are many people needing video services that can't afford your prices, but still need a product. That leaves a niche for lower cost/lesser gear freelancers.
It's not a matter of competing with you without the high end resources and experience, its a matter of serving a different customer base.
And frankly, you're probably the only person on this board that would turn down his nose at earning $1000 a day.
Nino Giannotti
Well-known member
Right you are, most good freelancer don’t even know that this board exists and evidently most on this board have no clues of what a good, well trained and educated freelancers is or does.
There was a time on B-roll that we had some very good and intelligent contributors that were actually making a difference; then the idiots started moving in and intelligence moved out.
Give me any good reason of why any intelligent, successful and well established freelancer would want to waste his knowledge with big mouth know-it-all idiots who works doesn’t even qualify as bad work.
Nino Giannotti
Well-known member
Don't flatter yourself, nothing that have or do would ever "ruffle my feathers", it's your knowledge of this profession and the tons of manure that you keep spreading around here that amuses me to no end.
grinner
Guest
Well, to be honest, you often sound more irritated than amused. It's like you feel someone has somehow stepped on your toes.
We don't have to all practice business the same way... and shouldn't.
Any of us getting fussy about how others find success... well, that's just weird to me.
We don't have to all practice business the same way... and shouldn't.
Any of us getting fussy about how others find success... well, that's just weird to me.
f11vid
Well-known member
I guess it's all in how you want to lead your life. I have friends who will go on vacation and trust me to cover them while they are gone. They know the clients won't be touched.
I've also been at big multi-cam shoots where a group of cameramen will be standing around chatting,but they suddenly clam up or change the subject when another cameraman walks up. They know they can't trust the guy.
I don't want to be that guy. It's a personal choice.
I've also been at big multi-cam shoots where a group of cameramen will be standing around chatting,but they suddenly clam up or change the subject when another cameraman walks up. They know they can't trust the guy.
I don't want to be that guy. It's a personal choice.
Chicago Dog
Well-known member
Sit down and shut up.
Let's look at the list of hilarity and find out exactly why it's so funny that you claim folks are "jealous" of you:
1. You taped a small camera to your kid's bicycle handlebars,
2. You stuffed a bunch of equipment into a trunk -- without padding -- and took it across town,
3. You used rolling chairs to raise your consumer tripod higher at a "professional" shoot,
4. You attempted to cheat in the B-Roll.net Awards (you tried to enter a story into "In Depth" that was three years old and entered a number of other press junkets into the incorrect categories just so you could enter more than one),
5. You made numerous claims that you've "sold shows,"
6. Of the shows you claimed to have sold, one was an incorrectly-used phrase ("Mute Point") and the other didn't net any search engine results,
7. 95% of your "contributions" are nothing more than a spammy response that say nothing of interest or reaffirm a point already made by someone else,
8. You attack proven professionals on the forum as if they have no clue what they're talking about,
9. Google searches of your name show the exact same behaviour out of you in forums like Creative Cow.
Then, when people (very correctly) raise objections to your idiotic routines, you claim they're "jealous?"
What a joke!
Nobody cares about your home movies. Nobody cares about your lame-ass press junkets. Nobody cares about your irresistible urge to document all the stupid crap you do. To sit there and claim people are jealous is hilarious.
Nino's input is far more worthwhile than anything you think you know in St. Louis. Instead of drooling your inexperience all over your brightly-colored keyboard, shut up and listen. Stop using that stupid middle-school "you're just jealous" cop-out.
If you'd really like to compare bank accounts and clients, my money is definitely on Nino.
Let's look at the list of hilarity and find out exactly why it's so funny that you claim folks are "jealous" of you:
1. You taped a small camera to your kid's bicycle handlebars,
2. You stuffed a bunch of equipment into a trunk -- without padding -- and took it across town,
3. You used rolling chairs to raise your consumer tripod higher at a "professional" shoot,
4. You attempted to cheat in the B-Roll.net Awards (you tried to enter a story into "In Depth" that was three years old and entered a number of other press junkets into the incorrect categories just so you could enter more than one),
5. You made numerous claims that you've "sold shows,"
6. Of the shows you claimed to have sold, one was an incorrectly-used phrase ("Mute Point") and the other didn't net any search engine results,
7. 95% of your "contributions" are nothing more than a spammy response that say nothing of interest or reaffirm a point already made by someone else,
8. You attack proven professionals on the forum as if they have no clue what they're talking about,
9. Google searches of your name show the exact same behaviour out of you in forums like Creative Cow.
Then, when people (very correctly) raise objections to your idiotic routines, you claim they're "jealous?"
What a joke!
Nobody cares about your home movies. Nobody cares about your lame-ass press junkets. Nobody cares about your irresistible urge to document all the stupid crap you do. To sit there and claim people are jealous is hilarious.
Nino's input is far more worthwhile than anything you think you know in St. Louis. Instead of drooling your inexperience all over your brightly-colored keyboard, shut up and listen. Stop using that stupid middle-school "you're just jealous" cop-out.
If you'd really like to compare bank accounts and clients, my money is definitely on Nino.
Baltimore Shooter
Well-known member
Those who undercut are stabbing every cameraman in the back, including themselves.
Warren
grinner
Guest
We'll just have to disagree on that, man.
If I bid $9k on a project and someone else gets it because they bid $8k, that frees me up to do other things. I don't see it as a loss. I could have bid less if I wanted to work for less. Totally up to me. How could I get mad at someone else over that? I don't. I wish all involved well and ask to be thought of on the next project. I undercut nobody. I bid projects based on what they are worth to me and how much time I'll spend on them. That comes in less than others and more than some.
If I bid $9k on a project and someone else gets it because they bid $8k, that frees me up to do other things. I don't see it as a loss. I could have bid less if I wanted to work for less. Totally up to me. How could I get mad at someone else over that? I don't. I wish all involved well and ask to be thought of on the next project. I undercut nobody. I bid projects based on what they are worth to me and how much time I'll spend on them. That comes in less than others and more than some.
Chicago Dog
Well-known member
If you were a professional, you would know why.
dhart
Well-known member
Well said. Everyone has that "little voice" inside that tells them when they are about to do something wrong. Some guys listen to it and stop, others don't.
At the scene
Well-known member
grinner
Guest
Spot on with what? Here's a dude so pathetic that he responds to my posts knowing he's on my ignore list. In reading your quote, I see he has a hard time with honesty.
1. No. I taped it to MY bike. lol
2. He seems to have a problem with the way I treat MY gear. weird.
3. I guess I should have consulted him when buying the Cartoni? Dunno.
4. Cheat!? lol not suree how one does that. Someone wishes they would have made it to the finals, I think.
5. ah, Finaly some truth. Yes, I claim that.
6. I have no earthly idea what he's babbling about here. He mentioned this once before. He's either high, crazy, or both. I know of no such show.
7. Sounds like I should be on his (or her) ignore list as well.
8. Pot, meet kettle.
9. The hotdog vendor sure spends a lot of time googlin' me for someone who doesn't care about my work.
What no 10?
and the line about I know a guy on a forum who makes more money than you do. Good lord, man. I've flashed back to the 3rd grade.
I pitty this guy. A coward who bashes folks on a forum as a past time while hiding behind anonymity. Why he's posting on a freelancer thread, I have no idea. Whoever has seen a frame of his (or her) work please stand up.
I'd hate for yet another thread to fall victim to the pointless babble and hatred of an internet commando who is quick to bash but has nothing to show. This thread is about price structure. Someone's obviously fussy that my price structure brings me ten times what they make. I say work harder, get better and charge more when ya can.
1. No. I taped it to MY bike. lol
2. He seems to have a problem with the way I treat MY gear. weird.
3. I guess I should have consulted him when buying the Cartoni? Dunno.
4. Cheat!? lol not suree how one does that. Someone wishes they would have made it to the finals, I think.
5. ah, Finaly some truth. Yes, I claim that.
6. I have no earthly idea what he's babbling about here. He mentioned this once before. He's either high, crazy, or both. I know of no such show.
7. Sounds like I should be on his (or her) ignore list as well.
8. Pot, meet kettle.
9. The hotdog vendor sure spends a lot of time googlin' me for someone who doesn't care about my work.
What no 10?
and the line about I know a guy on a forum who makes more money than you do. Good lord, man. I've flashed back to the 3rd grade.
I pitty this guy. A coward who bashes folks on a forum as a past time while hiding behind anonymity. Why he's posting on a freelancer thread, I have no idea. Whoever has seen a frame of his (or her) work please stand up.
I'd hate for yet another thread to fall victim to the pointless babble and hatred of an internet commando who is quick to bash but has nothing to show. This thread is about price structure. Someone's obviously fussy that my price structure brings me ten times what they make. I say work harder, get better and charge more when ya can.