Where to start?

[NoJobTog]

Aaron, when you say """shooting/production is about 300 dollars a 30 second spot""" how long does it take to do the ad and what all is involved in production for the $300?

300.00 is the minimum that folks charge to shoot, and edit. Often these commercials lack any type of creativity. I dont know if it is because the client is trying to fit 50 pounds of crap into a 5 pound bag. However I dont think that you can blame piss poor framing on the client.

I think the better spots max out around 5 and 8 hundred something that has a little bit of creativity, more than just a couple of pans and graphics.
I dont have any experience in doin higher end commercials, but at the very very least I know how to do basic lighting and how to frame a shot.

I do need to check into some more agencies to get a better idea as to what they do and charge for. The prices that I have given are based on my previous station within the same size market. But I know that they were competitive
Im gonna call around on monday and try to find out some more info I will post my results as I get them.

At this point Im not looking at getting rich. I want to generate a profit by producing a quality product. This way (0ne the lower end) I can learn how to deal with clients. And save up cash to work my way up.

I greatly appreciate you guys help in pointing me in the right direction any more feed back will be appreciated the same. :0)

Aaron

 

[Hiding Under Here]

On the subject of cheap commercials...

In the early 1980s I wrote, produced, shot, directed and edited hundreds of spots for a cable television company in Massachusetts. We used 3/4" gear with an Ikegami 730AP camera. The base charge for the spots was $500. The reason they were so cheap is because the cable company made money running them on their system. The cost of production was kept low to attract advertisers.

When my boss came to me and said we needed to make "cheaper" commercials for around $300, I was totally confused. I asked him, was I supposed to think less about the concept? Not put the effort I had into the script? Shoot them worse than the $500 ones? I couldn't comprehend what kind of work would go into a cheaper commercial. $500 was rock bottom for the service we were providing.

Soon after, I quit and moved onto a worse job with more opportunity to learn. I had a lot of fun making cheap commercials. It may have been the best job I ever had. One spot we made was nominated for a national CLIO award in 1986. I went to the ceremony at Lincoln Center in New York. It was the year of the John Hancock "Real people. real solutions" campaign. I was desperate to win but, alas, we did not. I made the spot as a freelancer since I no longer worked for the company. The cost of the spot? It was free. The client hated the previous one the guy who replaced me had made.

 

[imported_blank]

Wasn't the Ikegami 730AP a high quality Plumbicon camera???
I would of killed for one of those. In the early eighties I used a late seventies SINGLE TUBE Saticon Pany camera /34 inch Sony deck combo. The Cannon glass was OK.

I would say in the early eighties your set up was as high quality as a D600 is today. No one outside the broadcast biz could of had access to a Three Plumbicon Tube Ike back then. prosumers were lucky to posses a VHS deck / without camera... Even the single tube cam I used was better then anything any civilian would of had access to.

In the early eighties you could by a house for 40k, a house that today costs 400K. A gallon of gas cost one tenth the price. I would say you were doing pretty damn good. I'm sure I made less then $500 a week (ot included) for working my butt off at the cable co I worked at. I thought I was doing A-OK for a young guy just strating out.

[ March 19, 2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Ivan ]

 

[Hiding Under Here]

The Ikegami 730AP (P for Plumbicon) was a low end plumbicon tube camera. The best camera of that era was the HL79EAL. Ike made a number of cameras before the 79E including the 79A and 79D. they also made a smaller camera called the HL83 but it had a few problems. The 730 was targeted to industrial users. The 730A was a bit of an upgrade and the AP had the plumbs.

 

[imported_blank]

Tom,

When I said 730AP was a "high-end" camera I didn't mean to imply that it was a "top end" or """BEST""" camera. With HDcams flying around certainly the D600 is no longer a "top end" BEST camera. Even old Digi-Betas are higher end then the D600, not to mention the new 14 bit AD EX CCD 24p Digi Beta DVW970 and IMX beta MSW-970 introduced this year. Certainly BETTER then a D600 -- never the less, no one can deny that a D600 still is """HIGH END""" today.

That's all I meant.

I certainly would of taken an Ike 730AP with three 2/3 inch Plumbicon tubes over the single Saticon tube cam I used. I remember when someone from our competition had one of the orange Ike cams. It blew us away. Our cams were VERY HARD to control LAG and LATITUDE was awful compared to the IKE.

You can not say an Ike 730AP was like a PD150 is today. The Ike cam was at least in the same class as an IKE DV7 is today - an entry level real lens 2/3 inch camera.
Can you deny that?

Back in the 80s prosumer VHS industry cams were available (class like a PD150 is today)

A step up was the single Saticon tube real lens cam I used. (class like the JVC DV500 would be today)

A step up was three Plumbicon tube cams like the one you used. (class like an Ike DV7 is today)

TOP LINE cams where cams like the HL79EAL..

You can not deny that in the early 80s era the 730AP was at least in the class of a Ike DV7 is in today's era . By far better then any "handycam" like a PD150 (comparing the technology of the 80s to the technology of today ) An HL60 is the "BEST" Ike SD cam, and that cam isn't a TOP LINE camera either. Ike makes HDTV cams that are far better. A new IKE DISK-CAM recording at 140 Mbps (like HDcam) is to be introduced at NAB 05. Eventually they will up the bit rate to 220 Mbps...

Here it is.
http://www.ikegami.com/nab2005.html
The new Editcam HD camcorder, the recording section of which utilizes the Avid DNxHD high-quality mastering codec to deliver HD resolution, full-raster (1920 by 1080) images that can be edited on laptop and desktop systems in real time. And because DNxHD is an open system that can be licensed for free, it ensures viability far into the future. The Editcam HD currently employs a data rate of 140 Mbps (Megabits per second) to provide 1080/60i, 1080/24p, and 720/60p recording and playback using FieldPak2 recording media. The DNxHD codec also supports 220 Mbps for increased performance in the future.

 

[BluesCam]

One thing you have to think about is your editing system and delivery format. There are a few options for editing HDV, but what about delivery? Are you going to shoot for 4x3 and protect 16x9? Most people are still viewing at 4x3 so you will need to crop or letter box your spot. What formats do cable and broadcast use in your area?

I wouldn't go the $300 spot route. That's what cable and Fox are doing here and they are dreadful. As Warren said it's hard to overcome the bottom feeder label.

There are so many people trying to do spot work these days. It is very competitive. Most agencies want film for commercials. For their corporate work, Beta SP is fine.

HDV is certainly interesting and I think it will make an big impact very much the way Mini-dv did.
It is a cost effective ticket to higher resolution 16x9 production. One of the DPs on "JAG" uses the Sony HDV for certain shots. One thing for sure... "the times they are a changing."
Good luck.

 

[Hiding Under Here]

Ivan, I have nothing to deny nor defend. I was merely positioning the 730AP in the milieu of the day. Although I did leave a lot out.

I was happy to have an Ikegami 730AP when I did. In the cable company that I worked for, everybody was envious because I had the best camera in the company. I had it because I insisted they needed it for the job.

Before the 730AP I had been shooting with JVC cameras. Anyone remember the KY-2000? or the KY-1900? They were little brothers to the JVC KY-2700. All industrial grade three tube saticon cameras.

Ikegami's first low-end three tube camera was the 350. Then they produced the 730 with saticon tubes. The AP version added the plumbs. It was a $10,000 camera at the time. I hardly paid attention to the lens. It was the camera that excited me at the time. The 730AP would probably be the equivalent of the DV7AWS today -- I agree. However, you have to migrate the full context of today's technical/equipment environment to circa 1982 to make that comparison. I don't know how many photogs here can do that based on age and experience.

Making comparisons with the past is not only difficult, it's also impossible. Where does the Ikegami HL-79EAL fit in compared with today? Well, you certainly can't equate it with the top-end camera of 2005, the SONY Cine Alta F900. Instead, I think one has to concede that the 79EAL is on par with the D600 and that the new levels that have been develpped above the 79EAL/D600 just couldn't have been conceived of by the average shooter 10 or 15 years ago.

We have crossed into a technological world where the upper end video cameras are comparable to 16mm film cameras. Opening up that ceiling just wasn't on the minds of videographers in past years.

 

[Shootblue]

Good stuff by Savino. Pretty impressed by the picture out of the 500 as well, of course, I am viewing it in QT.

Sometimes I think that that the hardest part of doing it all is not keeping the message in a shot, but trying to figure out how to do it creatively...I hate to have a list of creative ideas to go off of, but some days I think thats what I've got to do...

Hardest part somedays is to not get the same style of shots...seems that all your brain can think of. Don't know how some of these Directors get all their ideas.

 

[Alaska cameradude]

Ivan,

Here's my deal. I have no employees....I have to do it all myself, it's a small company. However, I'm not experienced in certain areas. So, I don't usually write scripts, do voice overs, or things like that. If a certain client wants me to do end to end production, I have voice artists I work with that email me voice scripts and I send them a check (this adds to the cost of the commercial.) So many times a client will come to me with a script, and a VO that they have had a radio creative company do for them. Then they hire me to make the radio commercial into a TV commercial. I'm just doing shooting and editing to fit the script which is already done. Usually takes me a couple days to do. I'd say about 75% of my clients do this so they can keep the costs down. I've done a couple "concept to completion" commercials and I charge much more for them because I hire people to do things in area's I'm not experienced in. Anyways, this probably isn't the best way to do things....you are letting clients who don't always have much experience come up with their own scripts, but it makes for less work. And the good clients end up hiring a creative to do the script and VO for them anyways and then hire me to do the video, graphics, and editing.
You make good points when you say that maybe my area has more money too....I have no idea about that but it could very well be true as Juneau is a very expensive place to live.

Anyways, I don't want to discourage you from making a try at freelancing, it can be very rewarding. Just don't sell yourself short!! I was tempted to take the $300 spots myself just to get a start but I've seen so many people do it to get a start and then get classified as "the cheap guy" to go to....they wouldn't get business from the high end people. Once you get labeled that way it is hard lose that label and people don't seem to respect your work. I've actually had people come back to me afterwards and hire me....you sometimes get seen as the person who knows his stuff if you hold out for a high price.

 

[Baltimore Shooter]

Originally posted by Attaglancy:
...300.00 is the minimum that folks charge to shoot, and edit. Often these commercials lack any type of creativity. I dont know if it is because the client is trying to fit 50 pounds of crap into a 5 pound bag. However I dont think that you can blame piss poor framing on the client.

Part of it is that that're trying to fit 50lbs in a 5lb bag. Typically, because the rate is so low, the one shooting and editing this stuff will only give an hour of on location shooting and an hour editing. That's one reason why the lighting is flat and you see what I call the "pan, pan, zoom, zoom method". Same w/ editing. A few cuts, a lower third and dump to tape for the stations. And at $300 or $500, hell I can't blame that concept. As we all have said here, you get what you pay for. Who wants to go through all the trouble of giving a $5,000 style production for $300 or even $500. Not worth it.

I dont have any experience in doin higher end commercials, but at the very very least I know how to do basic lighting and how to frame a shot.

But at that price, why would you want to put a lot of effort into it. You're saying to the producer (or company or cable outlet or whomever) that you personally are not worth much. Why would you put yourself through all that work for so little money? Unless you want to start building a reel, I don't see the advantages of giving a client a $5,000 style production for $500. You're only shorting yourself (not to mention us others).


I do need to check into some more agencies to get a better idea as to what they do and charge for. The prices that I have given are based on my previous station within the same size market. But I know that they were competitive
Im gonna call around on monday and try to find out some more info I will post my results as I get them.

This way (0ne the lower end) I can learn how to deal with clients. And save up cash to work my way up.

Once a bottom feeder, always a bottom feeder, at least that's the way the client will see you.

Warren

 

[Baltimore Shooter]

Originally posted by Ivan:
...In the early eighties you could by a house for 40k, a house that today costs 400K. A gallon of gas cost one tenth the price...

Exactly! So why are people STILL doing $500 spots 20+ years later?

Warren

 

[steve.c.]

hey..i work at best buy and a customer of mine said that her husband is a photographer for new york and he has this pager type thing that tells him were all the action is so he can get good shots....by action i mean like car wrecks house fires stuff like that anywere the police are does anyone no if there is such a thing if so were can i get it??

 

[NoJobTog]

It sounds like I should look into some other ideas. I keep running the number around and based on what that and What Warren and Ivan said. I think it may be better to look at some other options. Is there a website where I can find freelancer lookin for some people? I now have a better understanding on the bottom feeder idea. Ivan and Warren sounds like some prety good points.

 

[Mike]

Steve C.,

Most likely the pager is one that is from a paging service set-up and run by fire buffs in your area. In Chicago there is FireNet that does just that. I also believe that FireNet exists in other major cities across the country. There is also IPN--Incident Paging Network. I'm not sure how many cities are covered with IPN, but do some homework and asking of the people in your area and I'm sure you will find out. Ask news photographers from TV stations and newspapers in your area, as well as anyone you know of that might be interested in the fire service...most likely they will know.

~Mike

 

[Lensmith]

Originally posted by Mike:
Steve C.,

Most likely the pager is one that is from a paging service set-up and run by fire buffs in your area. In Chicago there is FireNet that does just that. I also believe that FireNet exists in other major cities across the country. There is also IPN--Incident Paging Network. I'm not sure how many cities are covered with IPN, but do some homework and asking of the people in your area and I'm sure you will find out. Ask news photographers from TV stations and newspapers in your area, as well as anyone you know of that might be interested in the fire service...most likely they will know.

~Mike

Mike,

Thanks for educating me.

I deleted my earlier post saying no service like that existed.

 

[Mike]

And thanks for all of your fine advice and input in the past, John!!!!

Be well,
~Mike

 

[steve.c.]

ok i need help...im looking for a infrared for my dsc 109 sony camcorder and the only place i can find it is on sonys website...does anyone no where else i can find it??