Where to start?

[NoJobTog]

I want to come up with a rig for local commercials and promotional videos of sorts.
I need to get a camera, lights, and editor. Im starting from scratch and I think my budget is going to be about 10,000.00 Any suggestion?
The camera I have considered is a Sony Handycam HDR-FX1. The biggest thing that I like about this camera is that It is comparatively cheap for HD. And I think as far as capabilities go it will meet my needs for local comercial shoots. I would like to be able to offer HD because I dont see anyone else in my market doing this. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Baltimore Shooter]

Instead of buying a handycam, even an HD handycam, why not rent a Betacam or DigiBeta until you have the clientel, at which time you can justify buying a camera. The light kit and audio gear can be used w/ whatever camera you use and won't have to be upgraded like a camera will.

Warren

 

[imported_blank]

Excellent suggestion Warren.
I second every word.

TV commercial clients vary from very low budget to 35mm film crews.

Why start at the bottom of the barrel? Why not go for the mid -range as Warren suggested (Beta SP to Digi-Beta cliental)

If the client wants a HD commercial, chances are they will want top-end film or at least HDcam or Varicam, with light and grip kits (and lenses) to match. The ones that won't care if a handycam is used probably will only pay minimum rates - thus getting the pro-gear clients (beta sp to digi-beta) will fetch you more money. You will also start building a reputation as a higher end contractor.

Just my two cents.
Good luck!

[ March 15, 2005, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Ivan ]

 

[freedom]

At this stage of his career, I doubt he'll get any higher end clients to shoot digibeta or film. So I like the idea of an HDV camera to give some 'sizzle' to the lower end clients he's likely to have a chance at.
The higher end stuff will go through an ad agency and he won't have much of a shot there without a great reel in hand.
The lower end stuff is more often done direct without an agency in the middle so they will buy into the HD aspect of the pitch. But that won't be the only thing that sells them. There will need to be good content and a compelling reason to advertise. Make sure you have that in hand otherwise all the gear in the world won't help.

 

[Icarus112277]

that kind of rig would probably be great for weddings too

 

[Baltimore Shooter]

Originally posted by Ivan:
...You will also start building a reputation as a higher end contractor.

Another good point from Ivan. In this business, once you're thought of as a bottom-feeder, you'll always be a bottom-feeder. At least in the minds of the client. You know how hard it already is with being pigion-holed in a certain position (i.e. audio tech, news shooter, wedding shooter, grip, etc.). It'll be extremely difficult (albeit not impossible) to shake that bottom-feeder image.

Warren

 

[NoJobTog]

Freedom
I doubt he'll get any higher end clients to shoot digibeta or film.

This is why I am considering the HD CAM. Right now I live in Greenville NC, Market 105(Im a news photog). Their are not a whole lot of companies in this area where I could run and rent a BETA CAM for shoots. The closest place I think would be Raleigh, NC. The drive there and the rental would cut away from my limited profit.The type of competition that I would be going against for commercials would be against mini DV cams xl1 and the like. 2 of three of our stations(one in which I work for) Have all relatively recently started going with the HD look but not true HD. I think that would be a selling point I am shooting on HD. Incorporate something at least a little bit better than DV platform(most the agency spots here are shot on) and do well with post. Im looking at getting an Alienware NLE System with Avid Pro. Also as far as weddings go that would be something that I would be able to go and rent some equipment for and make enough money for it to be worth it.(switcher and another camera) For the commercial spots our market average for shoooting/production is about 300 dolars a 30 second spot depending on what the client would want. Weddings I would be able to make more off of I think. I could offer a pretty good package with .
Im looking at this as a means to raise funds for a much more proffessional rig. Building a local clientel for extra cash and maybe helping a couple of college kids get some type of experience outside of class.
I ultimately wanna get the hell out of this market after getting some more experience and money. My next step would be to get up with some freelance shooters I could learn from and go from there.

Hows this sound?

 

[freedom]

Well...
First, don't call HDV HD-CAM. Huge difference.
Second, $300/spot divided into the $10,000 investment will take 34 spots to just pay off the gear. That doesn't include any cost of financing, insurance, tapestock, other expendables, gas for the truck, the truck, let alone any profit for you! That's nuts!
And any spots you do at that rate won't get you any further up the ladder in any market. Peroid.

I own the DVX100A. My clients are paying $900 to $1200 per day just for me and my camera package. They want the DVX for the look. It has positive an negatives in regards to the look, that debate is for another thread. My point is that the DVX has the buzz and clients are buying that. If they want me to shoot with a hand crank, and it makes money, then I'm out looking for a hand crank camera and I'll make good pictures with it.
So I do like the idea of selling the sizzle of HD with an HDV camera but not at those rates. I actually want to make money. You should too.

 

[NoJobTog]

My clients are paying $900 to $1200 per day just for me and my camera package.

I didnt realize that I could get that type of clientel that would pay that type of money with that type of camera. What type of stuff are you doin?

 

[imported_blank]

I don't like to give people false hopes.

Looking back at freedom's first post in this thread makes sense -- looking at that reality I doubt that the original poster's clients will pay him $1,200 a day for HDV with probably very limited grip gear.

Originally posted by ajg3496:
The type of competition that I would be going against for commercials would be against mini DV cams xl1 and the like. 2 of three of our stations(one in which I work for)

DV platform(most the agency spots here are shot on)

For the commercial spots our market average for shoooting/production is about 300 dolars a 30 second spot depending on what the client would want.

Looks like a pretty "low end" market. No offence to the poster meant. Now that I know more about your market, I doubt that the clients would be willing to pay the $1,200 even for a Betacam with full grip & lighting gear.

In your market your best bet is probably to get into weddings and such instead of television.
I guess if that's what you want to do you should look up wedding shooters in the area and see what the rate is. Personally, if I lived in your market and if I was to go freelance - I would move to a bigger market - (where commercial shoots are shot on broadcast cams) but that's just me.

Now why don't we tell "this guy" that he should take the gig only if they pay him
$450 for shooting labour
$550 for his dvx100a and accessories
Twice per PER DAY! Since he is on call 24/7.

Good luck on collecting it.

 

[Hiding Under Here]

I offer the following link for a guy in a low end market -- Worcester, MA, city of 160,000 in central Massachusetts.

Here's what a creative guy with a Final Cut Pro editing system can do. The owner, Mike Savino is a friend of mine. He is extremely talented. However, he owns a JVC camera (the 500?) and a relatively cheap NLE editing system. My guess is that his investment is well over $10,000. But it's under $25K, too.

Check out his demo reel. But also watch the commercials. The one for the tire company is the best.

www.MikeSavino.com

By the way, he made his website by himself with software bought off the shelf.

 

[freedom]

ajg
The point I didn't make is that there should be room for you to move your rates higher than $300 for a whole production. Sure, you won't be able to charge $1200/shoot day right away but I would think that a complete 30 sec spot should run at the very least $1000 at your level. Otherwise, why do it? Go back to the numbers and add them up.
Weddings, from what I've heard and I don't do them so I'm speaking second had, run from $2000 up to $10,000. So charging $2000 to $3000 should about do it in that realm. Good luck dealing with the mother of the bride!!!
In summary, don't sell yourself short. Run the numbers and make sure they make sense.

 

[NoJobTog]

No offense taken. Yeah this is a very low end market and Im tryin to get out. Due to my circumstances I will be here for about 2 years. I figure gettin a camera and makin a little bit of money along with bein a newstog it will give me a chance to learn about getting and dealing with clients on some type of level and getting better at shooting at the same time. I plan on getting the hell outa this area asap. So I guess my next question would be where do I go after I leave this place. What type of experience do you guys look for when takin on a second camera guy and such?

Aaron

 

[freedom]

What type of experience do you guys look for when takin on a second camera guy and such?

See the thread in the uncensored list regarding small market and farm animals!!!
Always try to make yourself ewesfull!

 

[imported_blank]

Originally posted by ajg3496:
What type of experience do you guys look for when takin on a second camera guy and such?

Aaron

Aaron,
What we look for in a second camera:

The A camera will be DP, usually responsible for both cam-angles and all lighting positions. (unless light director is used)

The B camera will be responsible for setting up his camera to look as close as possible to the A camera. He/She will also be expected to help with hauling in all the gear and help put together lights and other grip stuff.

He/She is expected to know how to run a fully manual camera, must be able to accurately set iris (mantain two cam match when changing shot - very important) Must be able to frame and compose in the manner that is asked to match style of show.

If the crew thinks the cameraman has potential then they ask the B cam person to start observing the lighting style and other stuff.

Hope this helps.

 

[Alaska cameradude]

I run a video production company in JUNEAU, ALASKA....it's like DMA 208 or something....very very small. I have a PD-150, (Yeah I know I know...the money just wasn't there for a high end cam cause I bought EVERYTHING with savings cause I don't believe in credit) Macintosh computer, Final Cut Pro HD, Apple Motion, Boris Red, Cleaner, DVD Studio Pro, some extra hard drives for video, lights, wireless and wired lavs, tripod, DSR-11 edit deck 4 megapixel still cam, and some other assorted gear.....total out of pocket cost was around 10 grand cause I shopped around a lot and got good deals.

I WILL NOT DO A SPOT FOR LESS THAN $500!!!!! And the only way I will do a spot that cheap is if the client supplies me with stills and just wants me to do some pan and scan stuff with his stills!!! My commercials (which are decidedly in a low end market) average $700-$1000 per spot! Yes it's hard to get business sometimes, and just yesterday I turned down several clients cause they all wanted me to do spots for like $200. I REFUSE to participate in this mistaken notion people in small markets have that video businesses are really "just a hobby" because my nephew/son/grampa Joe etc... hsd a computer and camcorder and said they could do it for $50. I tell them "Yeah and I have a pair of pliers at home...maybe I should start a business as a dentist!" The point is you bring more to the table than just gear. You have experience and training in producing television!!! I spend $40 grand going to school for TV production and I'm not going to work for peanuts. If you have a regular job you shouldn't have to sell yourself short!!! It's up to all of us who practice video to get some sanity back into the people who hire us.....we DO have skills and if they want us to use those skills to market their business they should pay us a fair price!!!! If you need the money to feed your family it's one thing....you do what you have to in emergencies like that. But, other than that, I can see no scenario that I'd do a commercial for as little as $300!!!

 

[Baltimore Shooter]

Personally, I wouldn't do a spot for less than $5,000 (concept to completion), but I know you're in Alaska, so things may be different up there. But I'm sure thare are DPs who would't do anything for less than $25,000. A lot depends on where you are.

Warren

 

[Alaska cameradude]

Things are a little strange up here, but I don't dispute your price at all!!! I think $5000 is a fair price for a well produced commercial. I do what I do for around $1000 for a couple reasons, First I am using a handycam PD-150, second, I am a former news shooter that had zero experience in commercial production before I started my business, so I am not as skilled as most on this board are.....but I thought even though I was new, I should charge enough that they don't get the idea that producing commercials is cheap and easy....too many people already have that impression. And as you mention it is small town Alaska. If I was in Anchorage, I'd charge more. Even as it is I only get the top 20% or so of clientel around here because most will go to the local TV stations with their "free production with airtime" junk they offer. I counter by going to potential clients and showing them one of my commercials for a business alongside a commercial for the same business produced by the local "free production" TV stations. I've never had a potential client think that the TV station's version looked as good as my stuff, and I am not really very good at it yet. It just goes to show you what kind of crap is being thrown on TV in the guise of a commercial. So a well produced one is worth a lot in my opinion.

 

[imported_blank]

Folks, there is no set price for commercial production.

Originally posted by ajg3496:
For the commercial spots our market average for shoooting/production is about 300 dolars a 30 second spot depending on what the client would want.

That seems awfully low to me as well. But if that's what the market is then what options do you have?

1)) Fragment the market with more competition by starting a new commercial video co.

2)) Try to convince all the clients (that are used to paying $300) that your company is so much above the already established companies that they need to come to you and pay $2K. (it could work but...)

3)) Move to a RICHER market. Not necessarily bigger but RICHER.

Aaron, when you say """shooting/production is about 300 dollars a 30 second spot""" how long does it take to do the ad and what all is involved in production for the $300?

Alaska Cameradude,
Your market may be smaller then Greenville NC but it sounds like a little bit richer market.
Then again, I don't know all the details involved. You say that you do (concept to completion?) spots for $500 (average $700 to $1,000 ?) Man, that sounds low. Although if takes you a day then its not bad. How long does it take you to make a $1,000 ad? What all is involved? Just shooting/gripping/editing or do you write/script/voice etc?

Warren,
When you do an ad for $5,000 or more (concept to completion), how long does it take you and what are ALL your duties?

I'm just trying to learn here as I have never done a concept to completion ad all by myself.

I do know there are companies in town that charge upward of a million dollars for a thirty second ad. This of course includes a giant crew, all kinds of props, FX, Film Stock, etc.
The market size is not relevant because many of these ads run on American National TV.

I also know that some ads around town cost, "starting" around $30,000 to pull off. These are Beta SP, DigiBeta type ads where they hire-out crews or use in-house tech crews for the normal daily rates. No one makes $30k because there are many people involved, lots of gear and most profit goes to the bean counters. Techs make the normal daily wage.

There are also very small indy people (with limited gear) that probably charge around $1,000 for a very low-budget ad and these ads will only run on late-night TV.

There is no set rate for concept to completion . Ads vary from $300 to 3 million. No matter what gear or talent you have, no one will run to Greenville NC to have a 3 million dollar ad made. You have to offer what the market will bare. If the going rate is $300 then that's ALL the client is used to paying....

 

[quicklad]

Is that $300 to produce/shoot & edit the spot - or is it $300 to AIR the spot?