Safe on the sidewalk? Nope

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<Slosher>

Guest
I was shooting exteriors of a chemical plant from the "safety" of a public sidewalk. The sidewalk connects to the chemical plant property.

Security comes out and claims that I need permission to videotape their factory. "Security reasons" were cited. I firmly but calmly state that I am within my rights to shoot whatever I can see from the public sidewalk. Security disagrees. They say I need permission. They call the police. I wait for the police knowing that I'm right.

Cops show up--they were cool. They wonder why they're there. After a ten minute wait, the plant manager informs security that I do indeed have the right to be videotaping from the sidewalk. A small victory, yes, but it still felt good.

Be prepared to go to jail and talk to your boss but heed this--Know your rights. Shoot within your rights. Challenge.
 
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<visiting DC>

Guest
Get this. I was shooting a standup with a reporter in front of the FDA in Maryland. On the sidewalk, mind you. Security comes along and says it's not permitted (pre 9/11 mind you) I politely explained, in the United States, it is permitted. He said we had to wait for his supervisor to decide. We didn't wait. I thought he was going to cry.
 
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<actionnewsman>

Guest
I was shooting a live shot for our 11 p.m. newscast in front of a school. I was on school property in front of the office, and security told me I had to leave now. This lady was trying to tell me that it was private property, and that I had to leave. I firmly said no, and kept setting up. She was still loudly insisting that I leave during my reporter's live intro to his package. By the time the live tag out rolls around, she had calmed down, and actually waved and smiled at the camera like an idiot. As I was starting to pack up, she disappears. Apparently, members of the school board had been watching, and called her to ask her what the hell she was doing. The next day, school officials called the station to apologize for her behavior, and reaffirmed that I had every right to be there.

Moral of the story: know the law, stand your ground. A lot of police officers, and most (if not all) security people, don't know the laws regarding media access.
 

David R. Busse

Well-known member
Another goofy take on this "you gotta have permission" thread...

Here in LA, you are often challenged in a similar manner, especially if you are shooting from a tripod.

Many property owners assume a tripod means you are doing production rather than news...as we all know, non-news use of a person's property or it's likeness (commercial vs editorial) often comes with a fee and always demands permission from the appropriate owner/property manager.

Another issue regarding public property occurs when shooting from a sidewalk where the property owner claims to own the sidewalk. In many cases they might indeed own the sidewalk. However, in my state, if a property owner maintains the sidewalk in the same general manner as a "public" sidewalk, the same rights apply as if the walk were public property. Many property owners, aware of this, will have a property line that marks where the public access and private access start. If you are ever in the LA area and have to shoot in front of the Universal/MCA offices, you'll go thru this song-and-dance with their security people each time. When they find out you are news crew, they leave you alone. But it's well within their rights to inquire about your business and tell you to stay off their side of the line. Fine with me.

Good idea to call the cops if you are ever confronted by overzealous types. In big cities, the cops are generally well aware of these kinds of laws, which are designed to deal with bums rather than news photographers (I know, it's a thin line between them).
 
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<CF>

Guest
David, have you ever had problems shooting on the sidewalk of the "Library Tower" (the tallest building in LA) directly across from the Downtown Central Library on 5th st. or Rodeo Drive?
 
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<aaron>

Guest
Monday night i was on a really bad tractor trailer vs. isuzu trooper accident. I had 3 failed battles with sherriff's deputy's and a constable.

After all the victims were taken away and the wrecker crew was cleaning up we went back up to the bridge to get some video of the trooper. The volunteer firemen told us to get further back but we calmly stated our rights. They went and told the state police officer that we were interfering with the clean up. He came down to the clean up crew and said "are these guys in your way?" they looked up at him and with a confused look said "uhhh no" He turned back to the fireman and said "what is the problem here?" They just kind of looked at each other dumbfounded.

I nearly jumped off the bridge because i was so excited about this small victory.
 
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<Lawless>

Guest
Originally posted by David R. Busse:
Another issue regarding public property occurs when shooting from a sidewalk where the property owner claims to own the sidewalk. In many cases they might indeed own the sidewalk. However, in my state, if a property owner maintains the sidewalk in the same general manner as a "public" sidewalk, the same rights apply as if the walk were public property.
Where can I find this statement and any others pertaining to our shooting rights?
 
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<elvez>

Guest
my fave was a simple exterior shoot of an office building. two folks come out, say i cant shoot etc... I'm on sidewalk. they start standing on sidewalk, in front of my lens. i ask my desk to call the cops and get them over to the location. when they hear this they say, thats ok, well just deny it. then i say, ever so camly, that "the camera is on, everybody forgets that the camera is on." they look at each other and then slink away.
 
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<ntlz>

Guest
you have to remember, though... just because a certain place is public property, doesn't mean it's a "public forum". If the police or some other authority can prove that media access interfers with normal activities, ie: public schools, a courthouse and other buildings, then they can deny you access. Also, in my state, if you are interfering with the activities of a crime scene, accident scene, or whatever, you CAN be asked to leave if the rest of the general public is asked to leave. However, we as the media CANNOT be singled out. I suggest you roll on every confrontation you might have with whom ever is trying to move you from the premises.

Other posters were correct in saying "know your rights". Exercise them, but don't abuse them.
 

David R. Busse

Well-known member
Originally posted by <CF>:
David, have you ever had problems shooting on the sidewalk of the "Library Tower" (the tallest building in LA) directly across from the Downtown Central Library on 5th st. or Rodeo Drive?
Nope, but I do know that the area around that particular building (especially the north side) is a favorite spot for portrait photographers and others...I've even seen wedding pictures shot there. That's why the guards might a bit more aggressive...I'm sure they charge the photographers a fee to use the location for shoots.

I can't ever recall shooting anything news-related on their sidewalks, even tho I've shot inside the building and across the street many times. I also know the Library Towers people are aggressive tattletales about illegally-parked news vehicles.

No problems on Rodeo Drive that I can recall.

My more consistent problems seem to be in and around The Peoples Republic of Santa Monica. Cops there are fine, but the constant assaults by neo-Communist residents, aggressive panhandlers and know-it-all property owners are a reminder that US constitutional freedoms often end just west of Bundy....

BTW, one of my favorite places to shoot downtown LA m-o-s stuff is 7th & Flower, across from the Omni Hotel. Carefully check out the Citicorp Bldg. on 7th just west of Flower (the one with the sculpture of a businessman with his head stuck in a wall). You'll note the whole Citicorp Plaza is paved with some kind of decorative tile right up to the curb. However, about 10 feet in from the curb, you'll find a 1/4" groove cut thru the tile, paralleling the edge of the curb. That's the legal line that separates the "public" sidewalk from their "private" property, even tho it all appears to be the same. And you'll see occasional small brass markers in the tiles, near the street corners, saying this is private property... Much of what I've posted about this matter came years ago from the security director of this building, who was exceptionally well-versed on the law and showed me the magic line. You'll find lines like this other places, too...
 
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<exphotog>

Guest
Originally posted by <ntlz>:
you have to remember, though... just because a certain place is public property, doesn't mean it's a "public forum".
I think the point here is public access vs. public property. For instance, a mall has public access, but it is not public property. You can be, and usually will be, booted from a mall or even its parking lot if you're seen shooting.

However, when shooting from a public right of way, such as a street, or sidewalk (in most states)no one in full view of that public right of way should assume any "right of privacy", even if the activity you are shooting is on someone's private property. But, if you want to shoot someone running around naked in their BACK yard, which is NOT in full view of a public right of way, they could make an argument for "right of privacy"....one they could easily win. Even if you are given permission by an adjacent property owner, that person can claim "right of privacy", because their actions/activities could otherwise NOT be seen by the average Joe walking or driving by.

Bottom line, if you can see it from the street (or other public area)and shoot it without going on any private property, it's fair game.
 
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<ntlz>

Guest
you are absolutley right ''exphotog''. however, i believe the media can enter the premises of a business, shoot and USE the video up until you are asked to leave or told to stop shooting. you cannot use video after the confrontation. so, if you go into a mall, and begin shooting... security tells you to leave, the video you've shot up till then is ok because of the "right to serve" notice that is usually placed on entrances. the media is still a part of the general public, so unitl the owner/manager tells us to leave, we can stay. but get the confrontation on tape so there are no misunderstandings if you have to go to court. i would even suggest holding on to the raw tape for awhile, just in case. you don't want it to be a he said/she said situation, trust me.
one question, though... scenerio: you are doing a story on a business that scammed an old lady, you need exteriors of said business... with the right of privacy law.... can you shoot into the window, from the street?
 

photogguy

Well-known member
ntlz,

It's my understanding that you can shoot ANYTHING you can see from a public place, including in a window. I seem to remember being told that once long ago when a former employer brought in an attorney to talk about what the law says in regards to shooting news.

That said, I may be wrong.

(maybe someday I'll get that fence pole out of my butt! :)
 
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<Private Eye & Photog>

Guest
As a PI for five years and a photog for 12, there is a gray area about shooting through a window.

As I understand it, if a person walks in front of their large picture window facing the public street and gives you the finger while you are on the public sidewalk shooting wide, that's OK.

If you have to zoom in to see that same person at the end of the hall in order for you to see them give you the finger, that's invasion of privacy.

The rule is called "A reasonable expectation of privacy". If a person can reasonably expect not to be seen by the normal person from the street, they are NOT on public display.

If a person is on their front porch in full view of the street, they cannot reasonably expect to have full privacy.

This was a big deal when I was a PI and could make or break a case, evidence-wise.

my two cents.
 

shootist

PRO user
i usually enjoy these confrontations. the ranters and ravers who, while having concerns, lack a clue.

one of my faves:

i'm shooting general street scenes in a "depressed community" regarding possible federal help. A police car comes screaming up and skids in front of me. i seriously begin looking around to see if the bank's been robbed or where the carjacking is....

the officer comes up to me and vehemently explains that i cannot shoot video in their city without the permission of the mayor. i keep shooting amid attempts at explaining the law and the potential ramifications of his taking any further action when i looked at my watch.

i told the officer: "i'm only sorry that i have all the shots i need and an hour drive ahead of me because the blight of this town is only surpassed by the ignorance of its representatives and i would have loved to see this through to the inevitable conclusion. bye."

another time i'm shooting exteriors of a school when the principal comes out:

prin: can i help you?

me: no thanks...i'm fine.

prin: can i ask what you think you're doing?

me: can i ask if the police are in your school arresting a suspected arsonist?

prin: no comment

me: back at ya...bye

however...i was in london once and things went a little differently.

i'm shooting some scenes around town and sidled up next to the tourists at buckingham palace. i'm getting my shots when a beefeater comes up and explains that i'm not allowed to videotape the palace. i look around and see a gazillion other cameras pointing at said palace and ask: "why them...and not me?"

"well...you have a large camera."

"fine...fine...i'll just go across the street and shoot from public property."

imagine the haughtiest brit accent and the sting is worse: "actually, sir, there is no public property here for as far as your eyes can see. it's all owned by the royal family and it's only through their good grace that you're allowed to even stand there at all. now please move along."

me: bye
 
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<desertcammo>

Guest
That story about Buckingham Palace reminds me of an experience in front of the Alamo. Apparently there's some Texas law regarding taking pictures of it, and some very aggressive Rangers there to inform you of it.
 
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<steadybag>

Guest
Actually, the Alamo is not considered "public property"... I believe it's owned/ran by the Daughters of the Republic of Texas. The media can take pictures of the Alamo, however, you cannot shoot while on the property. The Park Police will definately shoo you away briskly if you try to set your camera up directly in front of the building.
 

Lensmith

Member
The US Embassy here in Managua is one spot I can count on hassles. I understand their concern for security but I laugh when I'm told by one of their guards we can't shoot anything from the street. They tell me it's private property that I'm looking at and no one is allowed to shoot private property without the owners permission. Not true and they know it.

They yell and scream at us and I just smile and keep working. It's always a festival of digital cameras taking our picture by three or four guards while they tell us we're doing something illegal. It's not but it doesn't stop a couple from being jerks.

I don't play aggressive with them. I don't turn the camera on them. In fact the camera's always turned away from the embassy until we're ready for the shot. Then we just act like they're not there and do it.

My satisfaction is not letting them get to me. They seem to want to promote a confrontation and when that doesn't happen, they've run out of ideas. Being polite and confident with a smile throws them off. I don't mind a confrontation but my personal style is to judge each situation as it comes. Sometimes it's worth it and right to play "I'm recording this don't mess with me" and other times having the camera turned away, making a little small talk work just as well.
 

sherriff2

Member
This is always one of my favorite topics. The question of private and public spheres was one I was onece going to make in a thesis.

One of my dreams is to have the technology to beat any police cordon. You now the scenario - "you can't stand there, that's part of a crime scene." "But I'm over a mile away from the scene..." "I don't care". In this wonderful dream, I smile, shake my head, and slowly walk back to my vehicle. I put my SX away, and get out my remote-controlled model helicopter, with the small gyro-stabilised camera and omni-directional microwave downlink. I proceed to fly it slowly down the road, PAST THE COP AND HIS PRECIOUS CORDON, and park it in a hover 100 feet from the scene. Aaaahhh. I love this dream... And the great thing about it is that you can transfer the dream to whatever situation is bugging you. ;)
 

TXPhotog

Well-known member
Originally posted by sherriff2:
I put my SX away, and get out my remote-controlled model helicopter, with the small gyro-stabilised camera and omni-directional microwave downlink. I proceed to fly it slowly down the road, PAST THE COP AND HIS PRECIOUS CORDON, and park it in a hover 100 feet from the scene. Aaaahhh. I love this dream... And the great thing about it is that you can transfer the dream to whatever situation is bugging you. ;)
Well you can get those things. I was shooting the Red Bull Flugtag, in which they have people build different contraptions out of cardboard, duct tape and whatever else and then the people push the contraptions off of a 30-ft. ramp that is jutting out onto the river and attempt to glide for as long as possible. Well they had one of those cool little RC helicopter cameras hovering around the end of the ramp. Just a simple little 3-ft. copter with a camera attached to the underbelly feeding back images. That would be such a great thing to have.
 
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