Ikegami HL-59?
- Thread starter BluesCam
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Best damn Betacam ever built, and still going strong. I'll put it up against any other SD camera any time.
EVERY time I've done two-camera shoots with D600s, we've always had to make the 59 "ugly" to match. Evertyime. And don't even get me started on the advantages of having dockable deck . . .
Doug
[ April 28, 2005, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Douglas ]
EVERY time I've done two-camera shoots with D600s, we've always had to make the 59 "ugly" to match. Evertyime. And don't even get me started on the advantages of having dockable deck . . .
Doug
[ April 28, 2005, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Douglas ]
Hiding Under Here
Well-known member
I agree that the 59 is a great looking camera head. I shot next to a 59 freelancer with my D600 last year, I admit it, his camera looked better. It's an example of Ikegami's superior camera engineering. They are a camera company. SONY isn't. I still like a one piece better but the dockable certainly has its advantages in this market.
Noiw, if you're talking the V59, the one-piece, it's the same camera head (right Doug?). The V59 eats batteries and is heavy. But, it's still a very good rig.
Noiw, if you're talking the V59, the one-piece, it's the same camera head (right Doug?). The V59 eats batteries and is heavy. But, it's still a very good rig.
Tom,
I can't comment on power consumption. For one thing, I've never used a V59, and even if I did, it would likely have been powered by bricks. I prefer IDX Lithium Ion NP-1 batteries, so comparisons would be tough. With a BVV-5 deck I can go 50-60 minutes of recording on one battery, and about 50% more than that in standby. That might not sound like much, but I've got to stop and change tapes every 30 minuts anyway, right? It's rare day that I run out of battery at an awkward moment. I like the portabilty of the NP-1s and the freedom to run a lot of my gear off of one type of battery.
BluesCam, forget about the HL-59 if it is beat up. You don't want any camera that is beat up, especially today when parts are going to be harder and harder to get. I'd take any other camera that was in good conditon over a beat up HL-59.
My favorite camera to shoot with right now is my Sony Z1. I love this camera. I believe I may have posted once or twice in the past that I'd quit the business before I'd swtich to a handycam, but now I've got to eat those words. I'd shoot with the Z1 everyday if I could.
Oh, and before someone asks, I do not discount my day rate for the Z1. I'm charging the same for the Z1 as I charge for the HL-59.
Doug
I can't comment on power consumption. For one thing, I've never used a V59, and even if I did, it would likely have been powered by bricks. I prefer IDX Lithium Ion NP-1 batteries, so comparisons would be tough. With a BVV-5 deck I can go 50-60 minutes of recording on one battery, and about 50% more than that in standby. That might not sound like much, but I've got to stop and change tapes every 30 minuts anyway, right? It's rare day that I run out of battery at an awkward moment. I like the portabilty of the NP-1s and the freedom to run a lot of my gear off of one type of battery.
BluesCam, forget about the HL-59 if it is beat up. You don't want any camera that is beat up, especially today when parts are going to be harder and harder to get. I'd take any other camera that was in good conditon over a beat up HL-59.
My favorite camera to shoot with right now is my Sony Z1. I love this camera. I believe I may have posted once or twice in the past that I'd quit the business before I'd swtich to a handycam, but now I've got to eat those words. I'd shoot with the Z1 everyday if I could.
Oh, and before someone asks, I do not discount my day rate for the Z1. I'm charging the same for the Z1 as I charge for the HL-59.
Doug
Tv Shooter
Well-known member
Douglas,
Please send me your email addy...I cannot find your card anywhere.I think Ileft a stack of cards in my room at Vegas....or else passed it to a cocktail waitress...not sure.
If you get a phone call from Mary,Luanne or Bunny,you might want to hang up fast.
Richard
tvshooter@comcast.net
Please send me your email addy...I cannot find your card anywhere.I think Ileft a stack of cards in my room at Vegas....or else passed it to a cocktail waitress...not sure.
If you get a phone call from Mary,Luanne or Bunny,you might want to hang up fast.
Richard
tvshooter@comcast.net
Doug, tell me about the Z1, I imagine you are talking about the HDV. Do you edit your own stuff with it?
I’m looking for a lightweight camera for my end–to-end projects, not for my broadcast clients. It's not a monetary reason, I just want something lighter. I’m currently using my Betacam and digitize the tapes uncompressed on FCPHD4.5; the end product is always DVD. The quality is great. I tried my 150 and there’s a difference, most likely my clients would never notice it but I do. I’ve already ordered FCPHD5 upgrade and I was hoping that editing in HDV and outputting in SD would close the gap between DV and BetacamSP. Do you, or do you know of anyone who uses both, Betacam and HDV and made a real end-to-end comparison?
I’m looking for a lightweight camera for my end–to-end projects, not for my broadcast clients. It's not a monetary reason, I just want something lighter. I’m currently using my Betacam and digitize the tapes uncompressed on FCPHD4.5; the end product is always DVD. The quality is great. I tried my 150 and there’s a difference, most likely my clients would never notice it but I do. I’ve already ordered FCPHD5 upgrade and I was hoping that editing in HDV and outputting in SD would close the gap between DV and BetacamSP. Do you, or do you know of anyone who uses both, Betacam and HDV and made a real end-to-end comparison?
I
imported_blank
Guest
To my buddy Nino:
Recently, one of my favourite press release centers did a side by side comparison with the Z1 against the new for 2005 "24p Digi-Beta."
Click here to get to the press release center and then click on the "PRESS RELEASE #33" button.
But be warned - some say this PR center is no more realistic then the "daily show" (however I disagree)
Be aware Nino, you should check out HDV while doing sport type shooting panning where many pixels change at once - for a at least 90 frames, to see if you can live with the quality.
Recently, one of my favourite press release centers did a side by side comparison with the Z1 against the new for 2005 "24p Digi-Beta."
Click here to get to the press release center and then click on the "PRESS RELEASE #33" button.
But be warned - some say this PR center is no more realistic then the "daily show" (however I disagree)
I thought you decided to go the "transcode to DV route" instead of uncompressed. What made you change your mind and what are you using for a component input feed board and what raid system do you have?
Be aware Nino, you should check out HDV while doing sport type shooting panning where many pixels change at once - for a at least 90 frames, to see if you can live with the quality.
Tv Shooter, what do you mean you lost my card? You're not getting another one. Those things don't grow on trees you know.
Nino, yes I'm talking about the HDV Z1, and from what I've read in your previous postings I'd wager that you'd like using it to. I haven't owned an NLE since I sold all three of my edit bays with the rest of my production company in 1998, so I can't answer your editing questions. However, I've seen the Z1 footage edited in in SD and released on DVD and it looks really good.
I don't own an HD monitor so everything I've ever seen output from the camera has been downconverted -- but I'd put the picture up against Betacam. And that's only SD! You and I could tell a difference, but clients and end-users cannot. It looks really good. I can't imagine how good it must look in full-blown HDV. But beyond just picture quality, the camera has got some pretty cool features that I'd pay extra for to have on a Betacam.
Once again, the same old naysayers that have never bought a camera can point out how the specs say the camera is no good, but real world experience says different. It's like the digital vs. film debate in still photography. Yes, technically film is still superior, but who can tell the difference? And the benefits of having a high-end digital SLR and a more efficient workflow outweigh those small quality differences. Nevertheless you've still got people that want to live in the past, cling to old technology (even it is better on paper), and pissing on any new products that threaten the old way. Sound familiar to anyone?
As TV Shooter pointed out in a different thread, the under-30 crowd (which includes producers and clients) are looking at the new technology and we can either join them or get run over by them. My choice is to try to stay proficient in both types of cameras.
Doug
Nino, yes I'm talking about the HDV Z1, and from what I've read in your previous postings I'd wager that you'd like using it to. I haven't owned an NLE since I sold all three of my edit bays with the rest of my production company in 1998, so I can't answer your editing questions. However, I've seen the Z1 footage edited in in SD and released on DVD and it looks really good.
I don't own an HD monitor so everything I've ever seen output from the camera has been downconverted -- but I'd put the picture up against Betacam. And that's only SD! You and I could tell a difference, but clients and end-users cannot. It looks really good. I can't imagine how good it must look in full-blown HDV. But beyond just picture quality, the camera has got some pretty cool features that I'd pay extra for to have on a Betacam.
Once again, the same old naysayers that have never bought a camera can point out how the specs say the camera is no good, but real world experience says different. It's like the digital vs. film debate in still photography. Yes, technically film is still superior, but who can tell the difference? And the benefits of having a high-end digital SLR and a more efficient workflow outweigh those small quality differences. Nevertheless you've still got people that want to live in the past, cling to old technology (even it is better on paper), and pissing on any new products that threaten the old way. Sound familiar to anyone?
As TV Shooter pointed out in a different thread, the under-30 crowd (which includes producers and clients) are looking at the new technology and we can either join them or get run over by them. My choice is to try to stay proficient in both types of cameras.
Doug
Doug
Have you had any issues with blocky pix when shooting anything with a lot of motion?
Get a full frame shot of trees full of leaves russling in the wind and see if the recording starts to break up. The MPEG-2 can only handle so much before it starts to do this. No direct experience with it so I'm curious if you have tested for it to confirm the degree of this issue.
Thanks
Have you had any issues with blocky pix when shooting anything with a lot of motion?
Get a full frame shot of trees full of leaves russling in the wind and see if the recording starts to break up. The MPEG-2 can only handle so much before it starts to do this. No direct experience with it so I'm curious if you have tested for it to confirm the degree of this issue.
Thanks
Freedom,
I haven't noticed any problems with blocky pix, but I haven't gone out of my way to test it either. But if I haven't noticed it yet, then it's probably not a problem.
In fact I think it's better my Betacam or DV7 at pictures with lots of detail. I remember telling someone a couple of weeks ago while we were out on a shoot that I wished I'd had this camera for shooting fall foliage last year for a Travel Channel show we worked on. I think fall leaves are one of the hardest things for video cameras to handle, and I'll bet this camera would do great. It handles grass, leaves, small patterns, etc. better than the HL-59 -- and that's looking at downconverted SD output.
It's terrible at low light. I'd guess about 1-2 stops slower than the HL-59 and 3-4 stops slower than the DV7. Just when I was getting used to backing off the intensity of interview lighting for the DV7, now I've got to crank it all back up again . . . and beyond.
The gain settings are pretty clean, but it goes against my grain to have any gain if can be avoided.
Doug
I haven't noticed any problems with blocky pix, but I haven't gone out of my way to test it either. But if I haven't noticed it yet, then it's probably not a problem.
In fact I think it's better my Betacam or DV7 at pictures with lots of detail. I remember telling someone a couple of weeks ago while we were out on a shoot that I wished I'd had this camera for shooting fall foliage last year for a Travel Channel show we worked on. I think fall leaves are one of the hardest things for video cameras to handle, and I'll bet this camera would do great. It handles grass, leaves, small patterns, etc. better than the HL-59 -- and that's looking at downconverted SD output.
It's terrible at low light. I'd guess about 1-2 stops slower than the HL-59 and 3-4 stops slower than the DV7. Just when I was getting used to backing off the intensity of interview lighting for the DV7, now I've got to crank it all back up again . . . and beyond.
The gain settings are pretty clean, but it goes against my grain to have any gain if can be avoided.
Doug
Ivan, my diagonally northern friend,
I always enjoy your visual interpretations of our business. It gives a dash of humor to a profession that has none
When I will decide on any new smaller HDV camera will not be for sport or action shooting. I’ve heard about the lag when making fast pans or with fast moving scenes. For sports my Betacam will remain in power until ESPN starts asking for something else. Actually, to add to my confusion, I had a long and interesting talk about the format issue with some higher-ups at ESPN. It’s difficult to repeat anything from that conversation without the risk of divulging something confidential. Bottom line, at least on the freelancer’s front nothing is settled yet.
I started my journey back to editing last November with the 17†Powerbook but I knew that the smaller computer wasn’t going to last. Now I have a full-blown G5 with all the bells and whistles. But I still need the portability of my Powerbook so everything I have on the big guy can also be portable for the little one. To digitize the tapes I use an AJA IO box, 8/10 bit uncompressed, it goes into the computer via firewire 400. For storage I have an enclosure with a stack of 300G drives working out of an 8 ports serial card made by Sonnet. However I still prefer the portability of Lacie external drives via the firewire 800. Actually, considering that most of these jobs that require editing will be periodically upgraded, I’ve been using a separate Lacie drive per each client.
Doug,
Thanks for he very reassuring reply. I know that there will be an HDV in my near future. I’ve also heard good things about the new Panasonic HDV but until I see more users’ reports I’m afraid that Panasonic itself generated all the excellent reports. In my opinion the new JVC HDV is out of the running. The interchangeable lens camera is defeating the very reason that I’m considering going with that format, and that’s compactness.
We would all love to always use the very best but unfortunately we have to make balancing decisions. The compact issue is a real one these days, especially when we have to travel with gears. Only veterans can appreciate of how fortunate we are today to have small cameras delivering good quality images, not necessarily the best but darn good ones.
You and I have something else in common beside the acceptance of smaller cameras. Few months ago I broke a promise that I made to myself over ten years ago, and that was to never set foot into an editing suite again. Back in the early 90s I attended the first demonstration of the new computer based editing system made by Avid. Back then it was only an off-line editing system to generate EDL lists to be used on real editing equipment. But I saw the writing on the wall. I also owned a large production company with several editing suites, I really had it with dealing with employees (up to 70 in our hay-days) and I was looking for a way out and back to shooting, Avid gave me that. I nearly gave away my share of the company to my two junior partners and never looked back. They did not believe in NLE until it was too late, the company that I started in the early 70s was gone by the mid 90s.
Now I’m back and up to my neck in editing. The best way that I can describe it for someone like myself who comes from the old school of editing, NLE is like playing a very complicated video game and making money in the process. Actually its kind of fun.
I always enjoy your visual interpretations of our business. It gives a dash of humor to a profession that has none
When I will decide on any new smaller HDV camera will not be for sport or action shooting. I’ve heard about the lag when making fast pans or with fast moving scenes. For sports my Betacam will remain in power until ESPN starts asking for something else. Actually, to add to my confusion, I had a long and interesting talk about the format issue with some higher-ups at ESPN. It’s difficult to repeat anything from that conversation without the risk of divulging something confidential. Bottom line, at least on the freelancer’s front nothing is settled yet.
I started my journey back to editing last November with the 17†Powerbook but I knew that the smaller computer wasn’t going to last. Now I have a full-blown G5 with all the bells and whistles. But I still need the portability of my Powerbook so everything I have on the big guy can also be portable for the little one. To digitize the tapes I use an AJA IO box, 8/10 bit uncompressed, it goes into the computer via firewire 400. For storage I have an enclosure with a stack of 300G drives working out of an 8 ports serial card made by Sonnet. However I still prefer the portability of Lacie external drives via the firewire 800. Actually, considering that most of these jobs that require editing will be periodically upgraded, I’ve been using a separate Lacie drive per each client.
Doug,
Thanks for he very reassuring reply. I know that there will be an HDV in my near future. I’ve also heard good things about the new Panasonic HDV but until I see more users’ reports I’m afraid that Panasonic itself generated all the excellent reports. In my opinion the new JVC HDV is out of the running. The interchangeable lens camera is defeating the very reason that I’m considering going with that format, and that’s compactness.
We would all love to always use the very best but unfortunately we have to make balancing decisions. The compact issue is a real one these days, especially when we have to travel with gears. Only veterans can appreciate of how fortunate we are today to have small cameras delivering good quality images, not necessarily the best but darn good ones.
You and I have something else in common beside the acceptance of smaller cameras. Few months ago I broke a promise that I made to myself over ten years ago, and that was to never set foot into an editing suite again. Back in the early 90s I attended the first demonstration of the new computer based editing system made by Avid. Back then it was only an off-line editing system to generate EDL lists to be used on real editing equipment. But I saw the writing on the wall. I also owned a large production company with several editing suites, I really had it with dealing with employees (up to 70 in our hay-days) and I was looking for a way out and back to shooting, Avid gave me that. I nearly gave away my share of the company to my two junior partners and never looked back. They did not believe in NLE until it was too late, the company that I started in the early 70s was gone by the mid 90s.
Now I’m back and up to my neck in editing. The best way that I can describe it for someone like myself who comes from the old school of editing, NLE is like playing a very complicated video game and making money in the process. Actually its kind of fun.
at the plate
Well-known member
we took the F1 out for some extensive field tests when Sony let us use a demo when it first came to the states. being F900 and Varicam users we were very skeptical too.
for what it realistcally is (a $5000 HD camera) it far exceeded our expectations. we tested it under the conditions you described, specifically moving tree leaves and panning with fast action. we did not see any prominent digital artifacts or errors. even on a large plasma screen. then we took it out two generations to simulate editing and it still looked quite nice even on a large plasma. no evident "blocky"-ness or overload. when using the cinelook (simulated 24p) effect it became a little "stroby" for fast action panning shots, but i think that is not the result of MPEG2. its the result of a simulated pulldown scheme.
seeing is believing. an honest evaluation should come from your own hands on trial under conditions that are a reality to your own production needs. true, it doesn't make as nice a picture as a high end HD camera, but who would be foolish enough to think that it would or should? you can't tell what this camera really looks like from a spec sheet. you need to see it for yourself, then decide. it will gain a niche for certain projects.
============================
the ikegami HL59v always had the best colorimetry of any camera i have ever worked with. especially the customized version built for ABC News. coming from a Sony owner, imo the HL59 skin tones are beautiful and much more realistic than the 600.
[ April 29, 2005, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: at the plate ]
I
imported_blank
Guest
Thanks for sharing the NLE info Nino. I knew you'de come around to realizing the benefits of uncompressed.
Are you folks familiar with a gentleman called Leo?
Leo is a Varicam owner and a major contrubutor at a popular "HD" open forum.
Qoute by Leo (Varicam owner who has experimented with HDV)
------------------------------------------------
I think you are dismissing depth of field as just one of a number of factors; it's much more important than that, however here are some other factors...
The compression scheme is a major consideration; with Digital BetaCam, the compression is very slight, about 2:1, I believe. You can go down dozens of generations and not observe any loss. That's why DB has been such a ubiquitous format in the SD world.
I think most people here are familiar with HDV scheme; the frames are not discreet; the information from one frame is averaged over several frames. Every 15 frames you get a full frame of information; the following 14 frames only carry information that changes. That's where the motion problems arise. Shoot gently moving trees with HDV and you get soft images with rough edges because of the compression. Mosquito noise is very apparent in shots with fine detail. Again, it's a compression artifact.
There is a major difference in compression that is acceptable for transmission and acquisition. We do a lot to our footage in post. Color correction with HDV can be a serious problem with major blocking up of the image. Don't be misled by looking at still shots! You can make ok looking color corrected stills from HDV, but when you play the footage the compression blocks dance around.
Because HDV is only 4:2:0, you have serious problems shooting anything that has color changes, such as a fire, because you have remnants of previous informantion. Streaks of color every other horizontal line have been reported.
There's more, the lens quality, for just one example, is dramatically better with professional 2/3" chip cameras than the consumer grade lens on the Sony HDV camera; no surprise, really, since a pro lens costs many times the cost of the entire HDV camera.
Best regards,
Leo
------------------------------------------------
Leo and many other HD shooters (who have experience with HDV) point out the same things over and over and over again.
-----
Notice guys, not one peep out of me regarding the Ikegami HL59v VS the Sony D600 - because I agree with what everyone else stated.
Are you folks familiar with a gentleman called Leo?
Leo is a Varicam owner and a major contrubutor at a popular "HD" open forum.
Qoute by Leo (Varicam owner who has experimented with HDV)
------------------------------------------------
I think you are dismissing depth of field as just one of a number of factors; it's much more important than that, however here are some other factors...
The compression scheme is a major consideration; with Digital BetaCam, the compression is very slight, about 2:1, I believe. You can go down dozens of generations and not observe any loss. That's why DB has been such a ubiquitous format in the SD world.
I think most people here are familiar with HDV scheme; the frames are not discreet; the information from one frame is averaged over several frames. Every 15 frames you get a full frame of information; the following 14 frames only carry information that changes. That's where the motion problems arise. Shoot gently moving trees with HDV and you get soft images with rough edges because of the compression. Mosquito noise is very apparent in shots with fine detail. Again, it's a compression artifact.
There is a major difference in compression that is acceptable for transmission and acquisition. We do a lot to our footage in post. Color correction with HDV can be a serious problem with major blocking up of the image. Don't be misled by looking at still shots! You can make ok looking color corrected stills from HDV, but when you play the footage the compression blocks dance around.
Because HDV is only 4:2:0, you have serious problems shooting anything that has color changes, such as a fire, because you have remnants of previous informantion. Streaks of color every other horizontal line have been reported.
There's more, the lens quality, for just one example, is dramatically better with professional 2/3" chip cameras than the consumer grade lens on the Sony HDV camera; no surprise, really, since a pro lens costs many times the cost of the entire HDV camera.
Best regards,
Leo
------------------------------------------------
Leo and many other HD shooters (who have experience with HDV) point out the same things over and over and over again.
-----
Notice guys, not one peep out of me regarding the Ikegami HL59v VS the Sony D600 - because I agree with what everyone else stated.
Hi Ivan,
Nope, I don't know who Leo is and the fact that he spends a lot of time posting on the HD forum does not exactly boost the value of his comments in my book. If Nino, Mike, TV Shooter, Tom, or some of the other folks here trashed the camera, then I'd have to stop and reevaluate.
I'm not here to sell anyone a camera, I'm just reporting what I have expeienced and people can take that for what it is worth. I don't care if you want to believe me or not. I like the Z1 and I disagree with people that seem overly concerned with the compression issues. It is not an issue at all in real world shooting. I guess if I spent more time shooting flames or fixing the bad color of my footage in post, maybe I'd hate this camera too. Fortunately, those situations don't apply to me.
If I expected to get an HDCAM, I'd have bought an HDCAM. You don't buy a BMW and hope to get a Ferrari, but the BMW is a fine car for what it is.
Doug
Nope, I don't know who Leo is and the fact that he spends a lot of time posting on the HD forum does not exactly boost the value of his comments in my book. If Nino, Mike, TV Shooter, Tom, or some of the other folks here trashed the camera, then I'd have to stop and reevaluate.
I'm not here to sell anyone a camera, I'm just reporting what I have expeienced and people can take that for what it is worth. I don't care if you want to believe me or not. I like the Z1 and I disagree with people that seem overly concerned with the compression issues. It is not an issue at all in real world shooting. I guess if I spent more time shooting flames or fixing the bad color of my footage in post, maybe I'd hate this camera too. Fortunately, those situations don't apply to me.
If I expected to get an HDCAM, I'd have bought an HDCAM. You don't buy a BMW and hope to get a Ferrari, but the BMW is a fine car for what it is.
Doug
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