HERE'S SOMETHING YOU WON'T LIKE

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Rosenblum

Active member
OK Nino. Here are the numbers as best as I can give them to you, based on my having made, produced and sold several hundred hours to cable. Personally, I have never even run into anyone who wanted to barter, or anyone who wanted to talk to me about sponsorship. That, in my experience, is solely the province of the cable company. All I have ever done is pitch concepts and produce and deliver shows.
All work I have done has either been work for hire or deficit. I did deficit when I ran NY Times TV, because they had the pockets to deficit and wanted to retain rights. Other than that, it is always work for hire.

Once you get a client interested in an idea, they will give you some sense of what they are willing to spend for an hour or half hour of programming. There is some flexibility in this, but they have a pretty clear range. Again, it runs the spectrum, from 50 on the low end to 300 on the high end for an hour. They will expect you to submit, along with the written proposal, a detailed budget. This is all in. Your fees as producer, the camera crew or VJ, the editor, rental of editing gear, rental of camera gear, travel, meals, rental cars, phone. Everything. If you are doing a great deal of the work yourself, you still put in the budget lines for each item. For a one-hour this is possible. If you want to work with someone else, or a few other people, that works fine also. As someone here pointed out, it is pretty hard to do an hour alone, and very lonely as well. You'll need support. PAs, research, editing, whatever you feel you need in the way of support. Pay them. Once everyone agrees on the budget and the proposal and the timeline for delivery, you are in business. Payment is generally 1/3 onsigning, 1/3 on completion of primary shooting, and 1/3 on delivery. Pilots also generally include graphics, music, narration and so on. All of this is budgeted for. From a budget of 100K, how much can you pocket in the end? Its a function of how much of the work you can carry yourself, and how much you want or need other people. Can you make a nice living at this? I think so. Is this doable in todays cable market? I think so. Can anyone do this? no. but some people will find that they can. Many who might have thought that they could not. Someone, after all, has to fill all those hours on cable every day. Does it matter if you shoot this with a PD150 or a digibeta? No. Not really, so long as it looks good. (OK Ivan, i know). Does it matter if you edit this on an Avid or final cut pro? No, again so long as the final product looks good.
is this helpful?
 

NewsMan

Well-known member
Is to me, Michael. I see validity from both sides. I believe production like the FORD Truck commercials, 60 minutes, and Dataeline will be the job of experienced crews with top-notch equipment. For the rest who don't have the money (yet) to buy a 100k worth of gear that will be outdated before it's paid off... they will fill the ten trillion hours of video needed by the ten billion cable stations. Seems simple enough to me. I see the market as having room for both, making this tit for tat argument relatively moot.
 

Nino

Well-known member
Michael, I really appreciate you trying to come clean with numbers, but you know darn well that these are not the number that I’m looking for. What a client pay for a program is meaningless; the bottom line is what’s important and you can arrive at that only after you have added all your expenses. Costs are the numbers I’m looking for.

Why do I take this argument so personally? Because I take a great deal of pride on what I do and you made a bold and arogant statement way back that I did not appreciate. You told that us, the fully educated and well-equipped veterans with our traditional method of production are obsolete and if we want to stay in business we better change to what you preach or we’ll be history. Well, after learning what you do, how you do it, and have calculated those few bits of budget info that you have divulged, and most importan seeing the work that you do, I can prove that you are absolutely wrong. Experienced and educated production people with real equipment can do a job more efficiently, infinitely better and most importantly we can deliver the finals product faster and at a much more price effective that your VJs can. The main difference between you and us is not the cost, you are a salesman and you aggressively market your product while us as a group has always failed to do that in a correct business manner. We rely heavily on our reputation for the phone to ring.

Let me explain to you why we would come way ahead and you would be the obsolete one if we would only add a little marketing to our services, listen carefully, this is business. I (we) work with a high and well deserved profit margin, my 200K package is all paid for and what I’m charging now for it goes into the bank for anticipated purchase of future technology. I have built-in latitude. I will never do it because I don’t really want those type of jobs at this stage of my career, I turned down 4 separate offers to go to Iraq and I’m not about to spend three weeks in a jungle, for me roughing it on the road is when I don’t find chocolate on my pillow at night. But if needed and I want the job bad enough I can meet your price and offer clients a considerably better product, and still make a good profit. You and your VJs are already giving the best you have to offer at the lowest cost, that’s your trademark. Simply, you have no place to go.
 

Rosenblum

Active member
Nino,
I don't know what other numbers you want. The costs are the VJ salaries, (which are around 2K-3K per week, the editor, who runs about 2500 per week, the equipment rentals, (which is your own gear, for hte most part, just amortized), airfares, car rentalsk hotels. A 15% production fee is standard, and after that, profit margins run anywhere from 20 percent upwards, depending on how much of the work you do yourself, how tightly the shooting is done, (saves time on the edit), how fast you can turn around the edited version, and so on. So for a 100K budget project, how much can you pocket? 15K if you hire everyone and just take the production fee to a good chunk if you shoot it and script it yourself. Are there any specifics you want to know. I am not trying to hide anything. Also I agree with the above, there is always going to be room for the high end FORD commercial or 60 Minutes shoot, but there's lots of room opening up in the rest of the industry.
And I agree with you about Iraq, I have two of my own VJs there now, Scott Anger who is shooting his third Frontline there, and Mark Perkins. Makes me damned nervous. Anger's wife is my assistant. All very tense these days. He called yesterday and said some a**hole drove by in a car and tossed a hand grenade into the lobby of the Palestine Hotel which is where all the journos are staying, betacam or PD150, that place is damned dangerous.
 

Photog Cowboi

PRO user
Look....if we are going to get nuts and bolts about this...A PD150 with DV Xpress is a nice and easy way of keeping sh*t simple. It's less weight (God...carry one of those 10 Grand Sony's that feels like a 50lb sack of crap). Keep it quick and simple, small and durable camera...and a laptop loaded with Xpress or FCP. And no...I don't own my own rig just yet...I'm working on my first post-college gig!
 

Nino

Well-known member
Look....if we are going to get nuts and bolts about this...A PD150 with DV Xpress is a nice and easy way of keeping sh*t simple. It's less weight (God...carry one of those 10 Grand Sony's that feels like a 50lb sack of crap).
Tell me Cowboi, when you round-up a herd of cattle, do you ride a regular horse or a little pony because it's cheaper and easier to ride
 

Gil

Member
Doing more with less...

I have a great BBC story...

I was covering the anthrax scare at the Brentwood Main Postal Facility in Washington in late 2001. I was shooting some b-roll, and then just hanging out 'cause the desk didn't have anything else going on.

A cab pulled up to the Post Office and a woman got out. Out of the truck, she grabbed a camera, stix, run bag and a folding cart.

She then shot some stuff, got kicked off the PO property like the rest of us and came across the street, where I was, to shoot wides.

Her and I struck up a conversation...she was from the BBC and from London to boot.

Given that BBC always had big entourages even to shoot simple b-roll, I asked her, "where's your soundman, grip, producer"? She looked at me, laughed, and said (in a thick Cockney accent),"...those days are gone, Love".

The point being, our employers will be squeezing us harder for more. Like the "embeds" the cable networks like MS are using, reporter/photog/editor...

I hope some of you are near retirement.
 

Photog Cowboi

PRO user
First Off...

My horse was cheaper and nicer than the pony at the auction. Second, I am too tall for a pony and third...I worked in a production company that did shows for ESPN, and let me tell you one dang thing...I learned a lot in my 2 months there. They were using Premiere, beta cameras and the money was average to say the least. I like Avid and the PD 150 because it is quick and effective, plus...for those who are not computer nerds...your graphics card can also alter your codec quality. Premiere uses a sh*tty set of codecs yet because of the card...it was clean and was airable. There a lot of things that affect video quality on a laptop...hence I love Dells, Apples and Alienwares because they are built for video editing and durability. And Nino...point in case...Spielburg was using Dell Laptops with Avid for Minority Report and the film was kick ass!
 

Lensmith

Member
Originally posted by Photog Cowboi:
...point in case...Spielburg was using Dell Laptops with Avid for Minority Report and the film was kick ass!
Oh really? He used Dell Laptops and PD-150s to shoot the film?

Or maybe, just maybe, he used quality cameras and crews to put quality material into a non linear system to produce the final product. ;o)
 

Tippster

The Fly on the Wall
Originally posted by Gil:
... She looked at me, laughed, and said (in a thick Cockney accent),"...those days are gone, Love"...
So's she. They moved back to the UK last month, I believe. Too bad. She was kinda hot.. ;)
 

Tippster

The Fly on the Wall
Originally posted by Photog Cowboi:
Lens...

Yer a funny one... :D But yeah...he was using Dells with Avid on them. Not sure about the cameras though! :cool:
I almost hate to do this, since she's so passionate...

But in the interest of truth and honesty:

I’ve never cut a film on Avid. I still love splicing the film and I like to see the tape go on it. We do the whole thing like we’re an old-fashioned handmade factory operation.”

Will the director ever move to digital editing? “Never say never but right now I don’t see it,” he stated. “The Coen brothers and Adrian Lyne still also cut on film, but we’re the last holdouts in Hollywood. Why? Because I like to see the chicken that hatches the egg.”
From the article Spielberg’s Prognostications

Sorry, Cowboi, but this is the wrong forum to hawk hearsay on. Not to be a curmudgeon, but you're not only new here, you're new to the profession - by your own admission. I would recommend relaxing and gleaning information for a while, rather than trying to up your post-count on a daily basis. ;)
 

Nino

Well-known member
Thanks Tippster, I've been biting my lips with this kid.

Cowboi, I met enough kids in my career with caves under their noses and peas instead of brains, they all ended up going nowhere.

Nobody learns by talking, you only learn by listening, and you have a lot of listening to do.

There you go, my fatherly advise for the day.
 

Photog Cowboi

PRO user
Originally posted by Nino:
Thanks Tippster, I've been biting my lips with this kid.

Cowboi, I met enough kids in my career with caves under their noses and peas instead of brains, they all ended up going nowhere.

Nino...I would rather have someone be blunt and not bite their lips with me. Be blunt and set me str8 so I can go somewhere!
 

Nino

Well-known member
Nino...I would rather have someone be blunt and not bite their lips with me. Be blunt and set me str8 so I can go somewhere!
Done it already kid, you just missed what I wrote.
Nobody learns by talking, you only learn by listening, and you have a lot of listening to do.
Make this your golden rule and you'll go places.
 
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