The Battle Continues

[Nino]

From an EFP standpoint, you're absolutely right.

Now let me tell you about ENG.

Having a background in business won't help you at all in ENG. A background in business will tell you to stay the hell out of ENG, that's certainly true, but then a background in pure business will also tell you not to give money to charity and make your kids pay their own way through college.

I don't think any of us on the ENG side of the fence had any delusions that we were gonna get rich doing what we do. We got into it anyway because, dammit, we like it and we're good at it. My business knowledge is and has been since I started this job, telling me to get the hell out and work somewhere that will pay me more, like Walmart

Having a background in business doesn't help us because there's always some wet-behind-the-ears kid just out of college who's willing to work for PB&J sammiches because "I get to work in TV!" And with even formerly vaunted photography markets like Minneapolis going to OMB/backpack, and in some cases hiring kids fresh out of college or sub-150 markets, being able to say "I bring quality to the table and therefore my business knowledge tells me that you need to pay me more" is just going to result in "No, good luck in the future, and if you're lucky we'll keep you on to train the 19 year old we just hired to replace you"

This site is mostly dedicated to television photography. Not business. The freelance board is a great place to discuss the business side of things. The rest of us are here to discuss photography and storytelling, and whether we're a millionaire or a dollaraire doesn't factor in to our qualifications to discuss those things.

Tom, how did you arrive to the conclusion that I don’t do ENG. Half of my work is ENG. I don’t have the deadline pressure that you guys have so I’m allowed to work on my shots. I also have a soundmen with me all the time and I don’t have to do editing. I’m also allowed to hire a grip if it would make the job more efficient. But just like you I get an assignment and I have to comeback with a story. I do ENG the way ENG used to be before all the cutbacks. Actually this entire mess started with a question about ENG 3 threads ago.

I started a thread asking how photographers research a story. This because while I was on a shoot in Miami many local ENG photographer came up to me asking many questions about the next game, such as what teams were playing, mind that I live 290 miles from Miami. They were totally unprepared and one of the teams happens to be from a local university.

Before heading to the field to do our usual story about two baseball team I went on line as I usually do to find out anything that I could about the teams. Doing so I found out an interesting side story about one of the player and I was able to bring back to the producer two stories instead of only one.

The following day, same job, I put on my EFP hat and spent several hours putting up lights and building a set for a multi cameras interview.

I don’t get paid any different for doing EFP or ENG. This is what I’ve been trying very hard and evidently not very successfully to stress the importance of diversifying your skills in order to be able to ALSO do jobs that are more profitable.

Of course my clients could very well hire an ENG crew for less than half my rate and let me do the EFP portions of the job in order to save some money. But they haven’t done that, actually sometime I wish they would.

And for the record, I never said anything negative about Stuart, never. I have never even seen any of his work and none of the discussions had anything to do about his work. He just keeps barging into my threads like he actually knew something about it. All I have ever said is and was to diversify your skills, learn more so you can be more marketable should the demand for your story telling fail like it failed for hundreds of photographer who now cannot find employment because of limited skill.

It's not a very difficult or forbidden subject, retraining is a major part of the economic recovery. And BTW, this is all stuff that they teach you in business school. It doesn't matter if you are a plumber, and engineer or a photographer, business is business.

 

[dhart]

Okay, okay. Can't we all just get along? Probably not. I have noticed something about myself and perhaps others. There are the cranky old men (me included), then there are the young turks wanting to tell the old guys they are full of it. I can barely remember the time when I was young and I felt the same about the old guys.

I propose what I think would be a rather simple solution to all this. If you feel the need to challenge someone in a philosophical debate about the meaning of life, simply move it to the "Uncensored" section. No one has to edit anyone, no one has to be deleted. It's the wild wild west and everyone knows what they are getting into.

I think Kevin's instincts are wisely taking him in that direction. But we can do a lot to police ourselves. A response to an attack on the general forums can be "meet me outside the bar" (uncensored section)

That way the general forum can focus on the business most of us love. We can learn from one another and we can share our experiences. All will benefit and no one should have to get bent all out of shape. It's been my experience that people "say" things to people on forums that they would never say to their face. Easy to set behind a monitor and keyboard and launch thermo-nuclear strikes against those whom you disagree with.

 

[Tom Servo]

Nino, I think we agree more than we disagree. I should have clarified and said "station staff ENG." We don't go out and get clients. Some of us would get in hot water with management if we tried to. That's what I meant when I talked about photogs who aren't rich. The fact that we haven't made a fortune doesn't mean we aren't good at our jobs - just that we've chosen a branch of the career that isn't as lucrative as others.

 

[Nino]

Nino, I think we agree more than we disagree. I should have clarified and said "station staff ENG." We don't go out and get clients. Some of us would get in hot water with management if we tried to. That's what I meant when I talked about photogs who aren't rich. The fact that we haven't made a fortune doesn't mean we aren't good at our jobs - just that we've chosen a branch of the career that isn't as lucrative as others.

Tom, this is what precipitated this latest B-roll crises. People jumping on my back because they read one phrase that rubs them in the wrong way, this without having any clue of what the topic is all about it. This is why I turned in what you call me a “royal jerk”, it’s a spontaneous reaction to the other mass of royal jerks who don’t know the skill of keeping their mouth shut unless they have something positive to contribute.

It doesn’t take a genius to realize that if I talk about skill diversification ( as i've been saying for years) in order to access a wider variety of clients and the importance of the knowledge of business and marketing, that I’m not addressing those who have a rock solid job and are successfully doing what that job requires.

A little common sense will tell that I’m addressing those many posters on B-roll and those who have contacted me directly and that have been asking for help because they lost their jobs and can not find new ones, or they are looking for additional revenue opportunities because they can not make ends meet with the money that they make at their current job.

I can not realistically post a synopsis of what was previously discussed every time that I posted something about the same topic, I have to rely on some vary basic common sense. Isn’t really that difficult to understand if the topic relate to you or not (for you I mean generally not you personally). If it doesn’t relate to you then stay out of it but don’t ruin it for those who can use the help, because that’s exactly what you guys did. Because you are doing well and apparently don’t give a damn about your your less fortunate colleagues you were able to shut me up and prevented me for helping those who need help. Great going.

Unfortunately I have to admit that I was wrong in relying on common sense, evidently common sense is in short supply here.

 

[grinner]

No more "I'm Nino, I'm fussy, and I'm taking my toys and going home." threads.
We get it. Bye. See ya. Hasta. Don't let the doot hit ya...
perhaps a hobby is in order.

 

[Chicago Dog]

No more "I'm Nino, I'm fussy, and I'm taking my toys and going home." threads.

Grinner, of everyone here, you're the last person who should be criticizing anyone on this forum. Your poor reputation score, proven track record of embellishment, and unprofessional actions in the field and on this forum put you at the bottom of the heap, boy.

I'd take a cranky, pissed-off veteran's opinion over yours any day of the week.

 

[Nino]

No more "I'm Nino, I'm fussy, and I'm taking my toys and going home." threads.
We get it. Bye. See ya. Hasta. Don't let the doot hit ya...
perhaps a hobby is in order.

Actually Grinner I should be grateful to you for making me realize that after 8 good active years on B-roll it was time for me to move on.

If you noticed my hostility on this board started after you first appearance here.

Before you started posting here I would have never thought that intelligence in this business could ever sink this low. Talking intelligently to your kind is the equivalent of serving gourmet food to pigs. No offense intended to pigs.

I’m sure that B-rollers will have a bright future now that they can look up to you as a source of wisdom and knowledge.

 

[Teddy]

Nino,

Please end this tantrum. You have held your breath and kicked the floor long enough. I appreciate your contributions here. I hope you will continue, but for the past week all you've been doing is baiting trolls. For the past few years you have built a reputation as a master of your craft. As a master craftsman you have great value here. As a whiney baby you are no better than Grinner.

 

[At the scene]

No more "I'm Nino, I'm fussy, and I'm taking my toys and going home." threads.
We get it. Bye. See ya. Hasta. Don't let the doot hit ya...
perhaps a hobby is in order.

That's funny coming from the number 1 reason why I also stopped visiting this board.

"The Grinners of the world!"










.

 

[Nino]

Nino,

Please end this tantrum. You have held your breath and kicked the floor long enough. I appreciate your contributions here. I hope you will continue, but for the past week all you've been doing is baiting trolls. For the past few years you have built a reputation as a master of your craft. As a master craftsman you have great value here. As a whiney baby you are no better than Grinner.

You are like the old lady that reads those tabloids at the check out counter so she can talk of how stupid people who read those tabloids are.

If you don’t agree with what I write, move on, you must have something better to do.

 

[csusandman]

Really?

Wow.

The "Ignore List" is a fantastic feature if there's a certain somebody whom you simply can NOT stand on this site. I've put a few on my list and I've found my experience on here to have improved since. If they PM you, "Delete" works wonders. This is kinda getting childish. And yet, I keep coming back... weird. Maybe it's for a good laugh?

Nino, if you are leaving, sorry to see you go. You obviously got a lot to teach and have done so. Personally, I'm not so big on the bidness side but more the ENG (specifically lighting) side. Until your website went "Members Only", I would visit your site and learn more lighting techniques than I could remember. I'm certain I've used 'em on many shoots too. Thanks and buh-bye.