The Battle Continues

[Nino]

If any of you guys with “delete power” decide to delete a message at least have the courtesy to specify the reason of why you did so. I gave you a lot of my valuable time to share my knowledge and contribute to the past success of B-roll, give me at least that courtesy.

My post was deleted twice, the second time it took less than ten seconds, remarkable. So I removed the portion that some might consider controversial. It wasn’t any personal attack and I didn’t use any “offensive words”, granted it was sarcastic but it was also the controversial truth.

As I was saying, Rosenblum has been making vicious personal attacks to those who don’t agree with him since the first day he came on this board, but apparently that’s OK.

I’m been called a washed out old man several times and worse, but apparently that’s OK too.

I just want to point out which way the wind blows on this board.

I have spent 40 successful and rewarding years in this business, I have achieved every goal that I have set to myself, and I thought it would be nice to share, and B-roll was the ideal place to help people, sorry I was wrong. I was never looking for respect, but surely I don’t welcome disrespect. So I started dishing out my own doses of disrespect to those who most deserve it, and everything started falling apart; and I’m so glad it did. Now I can make better use of my free time by teaching to those who are really serious about making this career a success.

I went back to my posts of a few years ago just to see the people that participated in the past. We had some incredible talents that made B-roll what it was, and I know most of these people personally, they just got sick and tired of the politic and and the wet nose know-it-all that have been plaguing this board, most of whom have disappeared too because as we told them, they will not last in this business more than a year.

Although Kevin had a great thing going with b-Roll, the credit for its success goes to the talents who unselfishly gave their time and the ability of Kevin to retain that talent instead of letting them get away. Once that talent is gone so is the number of participants, this is why 5 years ago there were over 600 active members and today there are less that half. Not to mention that when participation drops so is the revenue. This is why I couldn’t believe that Tippster, who apparently has “delete power”, told Ivan, unquestionably one of the best and most knowledgeable member that ever graced this site, “Ciao and good luck” instead of resolving whatever the problem was.

Ciao and good luck to you too B-roll

 

[Chicago Dog]

Come on, you guys. There's gotta be more important things to talk about than this.

 

[Douglas]

I don't take Nino's and Ivan's exits lightly, and it increases the chances I'll do the same soon, or at least not bother to come around as much anymore. In some ways, the inmates have taken over the asylum.

Doug

 

[Tippster]

Wow, the drama really ramped up quickly.

Although Kevin had a great thing going with b-Roll, the credit for its success goes to the talents who unselfishly gave their time and the ability of Kevin to retain that talent instead of letting them get away. Once that talent is gone so is the number of participants, this is why 5 years ago there were over 600 active members and today there are less that half. Not to mention that when participation drops so is the revenue. This is why I couldn’t believe that Tippster, who apparently has “delete power”, told Ivan, unquestionably one of the best and most knowledgeable member that ever graced this site, “Ciao and good luck” instead of resolving whatever the problem was.

Ciao and good luck to you too B-roll

To be very clear about a few things:
-I have never deleted any of your posts. I noticed that your posts in this thread were deleted by "b-roll." That's Kevin. If I edit/delete a post is says "Tippster."

-I said "Ciao and good luck" because Ivan said he's leaving. He's an adult, it's his decision. If you want him to change his mind feel free to e-mail him directly - I certainly didn't ban him and am relatively certain Kevin didn't as well.

-Same goes for you. I'm not about to beg you to stay - that's up to you, or others who feel that's an appropriate response to your announcement. Personally I hope you do stay around and contribute, but the ultimate decision is not mine.

 

[Douglas]

Come on, you guys. There's gotta be more important things to talk about than this.

That's true. And that's why it isn't worth the bother to post on B-roll anymore. You take highly skilled, highly experienced, highly respected, highly paid people like Nino, Ivan, Dzapper, Mike, TVshooter, HUH, MR, and others (I don't mean to leave anyone out!) who continually offer great advice -- and a lot of time they just get flack for it. Why bother? I think this thread has made a lot of people give a second thought as to why they visit and what they get out of it. In the end, some people are deciding it ain't worth it. I'm not saying I'm leaving, but the more good people who jump overboard make it that much harder to stick around.

Last one out, turn off the lights.

 

[b-roll]

I'm sorry you feel that way, Douglas.

I don't consider that I'm "giving you flack." My only concern is maintaining decorum so anyone who has a valid question can ask it and discuss it without feeling intimidated.

I don't see how that is a negative to anyone involved.

+++++++
For the record, in the history of b-roll.net, I have only banned 4 or 5 actual users (many spammers are banned every day). I don't take banning lightly.

 

[Douglas]

Kevin, you misunderstood my meaning. I am not talking about you at all, and I'm not talking about this thread. Sorry if I wasn't clear. You've never given me flack and I know we are friends on and off this forum.

I'm talking about the time and effort that some very experienced professionals expend to post very informative posts for the benefit of those with less experience, and often, it just leads to getting sand kicked in their face as thanks for the trouble. We've got some guys here with decades of experience, blue chip client lists, $200K+ incomes, and we're supposed to give equal time to gibberish spewing from the keyboards of fools who can't even pay the rent . . . and who apparently don't mind remaining fools forever.

You know what they say about leading a horse to water . . .

I have no complaints against the B-roll managment at all. In fact just the opposite, I appreciate the work you have done over the years and I hope B-roll pulls out of the slump and returns to the glory days when I could actually learn a few things without being subjected to an endless debate on the most mundane topics.

 

[adam]

Doug, you and I had an exchange a little while back that probably went about 4 or 5 responses too deep. But I'll be darned if it didn't make me think about what your points were and whether (despite our usually different ends of the craft) I shouldn't be trying to stay a little truer to pure form when shooting. Critical to me walking away thinking "I'm going to chew on some of Doug's points" was that, despite some biting sarcasm, there was the understanding that we just have different opinions and (if you really think about it) different jobs. No one ever crossed the line.

I'm slowly making a point here, bear with me...

One of the great divides on this board is ENG and EFP. I've done both (although much more time on the ENG end of things) and they are radically different practices. I've known shooters whose gift for storytelling and pictures is unmatched but wouldn't know what to do with a kit carrying more than 3 lights. I've known shooters who can perfectly light a hazy beach setting for an all day anchor set but would have no chance of turning a spot news pkg on deadline. Those two shooters value very different things here, though not mutually exclusive. The contributors who recognize that are among our more prized.

A lot of us starting poking around here almost a decade ago. Doug, you've been working in increasingly higher end production that entire time. In fact I think there are a couple of Boston guys who have been here a while (for example) expanding their quiver the entire time. Rather than lament various losses perhaps you might take up the mantel of technical expertise as you aren't encumbered by some of the vendettas that have led to valid ideas, advice and solutions being overshadowed.

Perhaps the reason you feel like you're not learning as much is because you've gotten to the point where you're more suited to a teaching role now.

 

[Hiding Under Here]

Well if this isn't am impasse I don't know what is. Kev I am in DC today with another crew. We're doing magazine shoot. We'll be watching the Celtics on TV at some local establishment. If you want to have a beer and just scream shoot me an email and we'll buy you a round.

t.fahey@comcast.net

 

[Lenslinger]

One of the great divides on this board is ENG and EFP... I've known shooters whose gift for storytelling and pictures is unmatched but wouldn't know what to do with a kit carrying more than 3 lights. I've known shooters who can perfectly light a hazy beach setting for an all day anchor set but would have no chance of turning a spot news pkg on deadline. Those two shooters value very different things here, though not mutually exclusive. The contributors who recognize that are among our more prized.

Spot-on, in my not so humble opinion. I've never had anything but good experience with the EFP and freelance crowd in real life and would love to learn from someone on-line who doesn't feel the need to degrade any and all efforts outside their areas of expertise, let alone rant endlessly about their spectacular career. We have an incredble breadth of talent here; surely we can share knowledge, tips, jokes and jabs without all the angry rhetoric. THAT'S what's driving people away.

 

[punky cameraman]

I think the time has come for the unwashed ENG masses to bid farewell
to the EFP TV GODS, and wish them a safe trip back to Mount Olympus.

I encourage them to create their own website where mortals know their
place. Where no one ever questions the GODS.

I know its tempting for deities to spend time amongst mortals, but we can not
compete, we will only disappoint again and again.

I'm sorry
I think we are all sorry
We have not been better hosts.

Farewell success.
Farewell perfection.

While we love you dearly, If we look upon you too much long we will all surely go blind.

Go ............ please go.

punky

I have just exchanged e-mails with kevin over this post.
This will be my last post on this thread
I saw it as a creative writing exercise to try and wake nino up
respect = respect ......... its that simple

 

[Nino]

Spot-on, in my not so humble opinion. I've never had anything but good experience with the EFP and freelance crowd in real life and would love to learn from someone on-line who doesn't feel the need to degrade any and all efforts outside their areas of expertise, let alone rant endlessly about their spectacular career. We have an incredble breadth of talent here; surely we can share knowledge, tips, jokes and jabs without all the angry rhetoric. THAT'S what's driving people away.

But in spite of all my efforts you’re still here, gotta try harder next time.

Let me tell you where they are going when they are leaving B-roll, they go to places where they can learn. I have an e-mail group where I send out periodical how-to newsletters and is filled to capacity with twice as many people that there are active members of B-roll.

I don’t expect you to understand, actually I would be surprise if you do. We had a conversation about employee motivation in the past and after what you said all I can hope for you is that you have a good job security and a decent retirement plan, because with your understanding and attitude of business management if you would ever try to make it on your own is street corner and tin cup for you.

How many time did you refer to me as “chest pumping”? I didn’t keep track, maybe you did. Exactly why would I be pumping my chest here? On B-Roll nevertheless, what for? To whom? YOU? Would you really think that my ego would sink that low. If you have any clue of marketing you would understand, it's unfortunate that you don’t.

So let me try to explain to you even thou I doubt it you’ll ever understand.

This is marketing 101. When you try to sale a car you don’t sale the car you sale the ride. You don’t sale anything you sale what that anything can do. You impress people not with the product but with the benefits.

This is something you can relate to, the beer industry don’t sale the beer, they sale the taste. Get it?

If I want to tell someone the importance of learning I’m not going to tell them that the benefit is to impress those like you on B-roll, smart people would laugh at me. You show a successful career. You don’t sale the ability to create quality work, you sale the potential that quality work will do to their career and to the quality of life that will generate. Get it? (I doubt it)

What I’ve been suggesting is a way out, a way to make a decent living and still stay in this business, or at least to learn and be prepared should you end up in the long list of unemployed news photographers. The only way to show that it works is that it works for me and for hundreds of other freelancers like me. Would you trust more someone like Rosenblum then when you ask him to show some success story he has to go look for one, or would you prefer the one who talks about success story is actually his own story. Now, evidently my message was directed to those who want to make a decent living out of this business, a brighter future than the unemployment line. If this doesn’t apply to you then why are you wasting your precious time, it takes less time NOT TO read my posts that it takes to read them, move on.

Do I put down people who don’t know? Never did and never will, I help those people. Do I put down people that don’t consider learning important? I come down on them with everything I have. I consider people who think that learning is not important the biggest losers, a threat to intelligence and the parasites of a productive society, and I’m not afraid to tell them in their face, as I’ve been doing all along, and the reason that I do it is because if you don’t care about learning then shut up, don’t try to convince those with the desire or need to learn that that’s not important. Try putting on your resume that in your opinion learning is not important and let see how many calls for jobs interviews you’ll get.

If you notice all those who has been vocal against me are exclusively those who don’t think that learning and skills diversification is important. If what I have say isn't important to you then why the hell are you reading everything that I write.

Out of everything that I could think to prove my point, this is the stellar statement that I will use from now on to show how narrow minded some people in this business are. It says it better that I never could of why the news industry is going to the dogs.

One of the great divides on this board is ENG and EFP. I've done both (although much more time on the ENG end of things) and they are radically different practices. I've known shooters whose gift for storytelling and pictures is unmatched but wouldn't know what to do with a kit carrying more than 3 lights. I've known shooters who can perfectly light a hazy beach setting for an all day anchor set but would have no chance of turning a spot news pkg on deadline. Those two shooters value very different things here, though not mutually exclusive. The contributors who recognize that are among our more prized.

“Radical different practices” Dear Lord, this isn't brain surgery Adam, it's a freaking video.

So tell me Adam, you only know and deal people who can only do one or the other? Either ENG or EFP? and you have the balls to diminish the importance of learning? Sad, very sad.

So exactly what's your skill, you can work fast? Not better but fast? Fast is not a skill, if you haven't figured this one out yet is management sucking as much as they can out of you.

You guys better take a good look around you because your industry is in sad financial shape and your “unique” skills to turn-in a story on deadline is not exactly rescuing the industry, isn’t it? If you didn’t notice the unemployment line is filled with news photographers with skills to make deadlines; and those lucky enough to have jobs are not exactly making a stellar living.

So it all comes down to this, with all of what you’ve been saying about me, what suggestions do you two geniuses have and have been offering to the thousands of your colleagues who can turn a good story on a deadline but have lost their jobs and can’t find new ones.

Is that the sound of some very opinionated silence that I hear?

 

[Lenslinger]

Nino,

Circuitous arguments like this are exactly what we're trying to get away from. I've simply no interest in your philosophies, business plans or trophy collection. I'm proud to be a veteran staffer of various TV stations and have never purported to be anything but. There are many others like me here who used to enjoy civil discourse. Make good on your promise to go away or find someone else to vilify. You seem to be running out of windmills. Tempting as it is to dismantle your rant, doing so only adds to the problem. Take the advice of your fanbase and start a blog. It does wonders for blowhards like us.

 

[Nino]

Nino,

Circuitous arguments like this are exactly what we're trying to get away from. I've simply no interest in your philosophies, business plans or trophy collection. I'm proud to be a veteran staffer of various TV stations and have never purported to be anything but. There are many others like me here who used to enjoy civil discourse. Make good on your promise to go away or find someone else to vilify. You seem to be running out of windmills. Tempting as it is to dismantle your rant, doing so only adds to the problem. Take the advice of your fanbase and start a blog. It does wonders for blowhards like us.

C'mon man, be a good sport, with all your criticism about me trying to teach people how to better themselves, with all your experience you must have some words of wisdom to your colleagues out of work.

And as far as people getting tired of hearing all this, look at the number of views this thread got so far, 3,356, that almost 15 times the number of active B-roll members. This is the second largest number of views in the last year on B-roll, and BTW, the only one that exceeded this number was the thread about the ABC layoffs, go figure.

I was tackling a problem and at least trying to resolve it, what have you been doing beside blasting everything that I tried to do.

 

[servo]

And as far as people getting tired of hearing all this, look at the number of views this thread got so far, 3,356, that almost 15 times the number of active B-roll members.

It's like a train wreck....it's bad but gotta look.

 

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, fight threads are always popular on any forum, whether it's Broll or slashdot. But then people also like to slow down to stare at the rollover wreck on the interstate too. Doesn't mean there's any value in the thread itself.

Nino, I see your side. I really do. And I admire your success. And I'll admit that I certainly would not object to getting paid 6 figures twice over to do what I do. But the fact is that people who do what we do and who make what you say you make are a rarity.

Measuring the abilities and talent of a photojournalist by the size of their bank account is silly. There are plenty of photographers out there who are masters of their craft, and who barely have two nickels to rub together. That's the nature of the business, and I'll be the first to stand with you and say that that side of ENG is total and utter crap. We're college educated professionals who are the backbone of multimillion-dollar business operations, yet oftentimes you'll find we're paid less than the janitor.

But sometimes people do a job not for the money, but because it's what they love to do, and I'm not going to denigrate them for making that choice, nor am I going to measure someone's competence at a job by how much they make. The executives at Enron made a hell of a lot of money, and we can see now how good they were at their jobs.

Stuart and the others have proven beyond any doubt their abilities as storytellers and photographers.

And to be honest, at this point I don't really care how good you are. You could be the Michelangelo of Video, but the way you speak to people, and the attitude you present, especially in this thread, makes you come off like a royal jerk, and that kind of attitude never makes a good teacher.

I can learn more from someone like Stuart than I can from your posts, no matter how much information you stuff into them.

 

[Nino]

Measuring the abilities and talent of a photojournalist by the size of their bank account is silly. There are plenty of photographers out there who are masters of their craft, and who barely have two nickels to rub together. That's the nature of the business, and I'll be the first to stand with you and say that that side of ENG is total and utter crap. We're college educated professionals who are the backbone of multimillion-dollar business operations, yet oftentimes you'll find we're paid less than the janitor.

Let me see if I can explain one more time this concept, I've done it a dozen of times but apparently it doesn't sink in very well around here.

But first let me tell you about me being a royal jerk, I only transform into one when I have to deal with another royal jerk, that's called adaptability, and I have become very good here on B-roll

"There are plenty of photographers out there who are masters of their craft, and who barely have two nickels to rub together.

You're absolutely right, but using such an example without knowing the reason it doesn't make you much better or worse that they are. The reason of this is that they got into a business without knowing a single thing about business. They think that quality alone will get them work, untrue, quality is just one of the needed skills.

When I started in business 40 years ago, and I'm getting really tired of having to constantly repeat what I did, but an experienced and successful photographer suggested that I take some business classes, and I did. It took me over five years as a part time student but I got my associate in business. I never intended to become the next Lee Iacocca, I just wanted to intercept screw ups before it was too late but most important learn and understand about marketing myself. Business knowledge is the biggest missing link in this profession, it has been plaguing the creative community since its conception.

Being good is not enough, you have to be good and useful. In few words you have to understand the market and your clients needs first, then adapt your knowledge to those needs. The problems about those highly skilled photographers that as you said "don't have two nickels to rub together", and I see them everyday, is that they are forcing their quality on their clients instead of adapting their quality to the client's needs. They fail to understand that video is a marketing tool, somebody has to pay for the work, meaning that if it doesn't have some sort of money making values is useless. They can produce wonderful work that nobody really needs. If you want to make a good living you don't or show off what you can do to other photographers, you do it with those who sign the checks, you have to impress them and nobody else.

End of my lessons

 

[eb]

And as far as people getting tired of hearing all this, look at the number of views this thread got so far, 3,356, that almost 15 times the number of active B-roll members. This is the second largest number of views in the last year on B-roll, and BTW, the only one that exceeded this number was the thread about the ABC layoffs, go figure.

That was the point I made earlier. These rants... keep the ratings up in a way. Sort of the way TV news puts sleaze on the air... for the same reason. What's Lyndsey Lohan up to today? I don't know, but I'm sure going to watch... The same way I view some of these "hot" threads. What's happening over here? Enquiring minds want to know!

This is a simple study in human psychology. I recall how "NPPA bashing" threads used to monopolize the bickering posts. Now it is clear how human nature works. Build something up. Then start focusing on the negatives.... so much that the positives get trampled over.

Be careful. Chill out. Have a margarita. Enjoy the summer. Stop biting each other. Don't drink and drive. Spread your wings and fly. Whatever.

I am still a member of NPPA. I am still a member of B-Roll. I still shoot video and tell stories. I still have questions, and still offer answers. Besides that, I have a life outside... and it's Friday. I work a night shift, but the weekend is just around the corner. Be safe out there.

B-Roll I hope is like Motel 6. Keven will keep the light on for you.

 

[b-roll]

I'm moving some of the "Obit" discussion to the UNCENSORED section to allow the debate to continue...

kev

 

[Tom Servo]

You're absolutely right, but using such an example without knowing the reason it doesn't make you much better or worse that they are. The reason of this is that they got into a business without knowing a single thing about business. They think that quality alone will get them work, untrue, quality is just one of the needed skills.

From an EFP standpoint, you're absolutely right.

Now let me tell you about ENG.

Having a background in business won't help you at all in ENG. A background in business will tell you to stay the hell out of ENG, that's certainly true, but then a background in pure business will also tell you not to give money to charity and make your kids pay their own way through college.

I don't think any of us on the ENG side of the fence had any delusions that we were gonna get rich doing what we do. We got into it anyway because, dammit, we like it and we're good at it. My business knowledge is and has been since I started this job, telling me to get the hell out and work somewhere that will pay me more, like Walmart

Having a background in business doesn't help us because there's always some wet-behind-the-ears kid just out of college who's willing to work for PB&J sammiches because "I get to work in TV!" And with even formerly vaunted photography markets like Minneapolis going to OMB/backpack, and in some cases hiring kids fresh out of college or sub-150 markets, being able to say "I bring quality to the table and therefore my business knowledge tells me that you need to pay me more" is just going to result in "No, good luck in the future, and if you're lucky we'll keep you on to train the 19 year old we just hired to replace you"

This site is mostly dedicated to television photography. Not business. The freelance board is a great place to discuss the business side of things. The rest of us are here to discuss photography and storytelling, and whether we're a millionaire or a dollaraire doesn't factor in to our qualifications to discuss those things.