Sony PMW-320 issue

focusthis

focusthis

Well-known member
Hey all,

I've noticed that after 8pm (20:00:00hrs) the date on my clips advances a day. Has anyone seen this before? I doesn't affect my workflow, just adds to the list of items that make this a disappointing camera.... bad viewfinder "glass"....no mechanical macro....camcorder-looking colors....

Thanks!
 
Never noticed that happening. I loved my 320 after having a JVC 700. Jumped stations and now back to the JVC. You talk about a sad camera!! :-(
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed that the EX line tends to have bad color...I can't really explain what I see other than it tends to overexpose highlights to flat colors...
 
RE: Colors

The way I explain it is as if I went from using a 64 pack of Crayons, to a 24 pack of markers.

I realize this might be addressed by pouring over the setup menu. However, I don't have any monitors that I trust.
 
Shootblue said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed that the EX line tends to have bad color...I can't really explain what I see other than it tends to overexpose highlights to flat colors...
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I have not found that to the the case at all. What are your picture profile settings?
 
focusthis said:
I realize this might be addressed by pouring over the setup menu. However, I don't have any monitors that I trust.
Click to expand...

I suggest that you rent a professional monitor or waveform/vectorscope and take the time to set up the camera properly before making complaints about it in a public forum. Even a name brand consumer monitor is good enough to get you real close. There are really only five settings that need to be changed on most Sony cameras that will get you 99% of the way to a good look.

Why would anyone would spend good money on a camera, not set it up . . . and then complain about the results. You shouldsSpend a couple of hours this holiday weekend and dial in the camera and you will like it a lot better.
 
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I do agree with Doug. MOST cameras HAVE to be set-up to look good. I love my VariCam, but out of the box it looks like crap. Same for my P2 Vari. Go back a few years and it was the same for all the guys that had D600's, etc. The only real cameras that I've bought in the last 5-6 years that looked good without major adjustments are my Canon DSLR's(5DmkII & III)(and I don't shoot video with them).
 
I know there are a gazillion looks possible...I just don't understand the thought process behind shipping the cameras where they look like crap...I know that there is a wide international audience for them and that might play a role in the decision making, but it seems that shipping them looking great out of the box might help sway some buyers.

First thing I did was take the 370 and tweak it around one of the better looking profiles Panasonic gives you to download. It's not Macie good, but for what I do with it, it looks great, and certainly better than out of the box.

I've tried watching on Vimeo a few of the EX1, 320, 350, etc videos...I've even got some raw files I shot on an EX1. If you are in a well controlled situation the camera can produce some great video. However, when it isn't it does tend to make some flat, colorized highlights in my opinion. Whether this is a function of the CMOS, processing, 35mb, 8 bit, etc, I don't know. What I do know is that I honestly like the highlight handling of the 370 more. It just seems more natural to go to a blown out white highlight like it tends to do. Whether that is the chip, processing, 100mb, 10 bit, etc, I can't be for certain...probably a combination.
 
Thanks all! I'll take a look at those settings when I get back to the newsroom Monday. I wonder if they match the "BBC" profile loaded by our engineers. As for the highlights, I wish the camera wouldn't override my physical input. If I open the iris, it makes changes elsewhere.... it's that level of consumer grade functionality that gets on my nerves that I can't fully disable. So, I figured the weird clock/date issue was just another symptom of a cheap a$$ camera.
 
I know what you mean about the highlights - it's no 700! As you said before, keep in mind you're limited to the XDCAM EX codec... 4:2:0 8 bit. And if you're REALLY picky you'd notice that some blacks tend to come out just off-black for whatever reason. eg. when you're shooting a black theatre curtain, (ones I shot were lit by PAR64's with no gels) there's a tinge of red or blue... from what I've found anyway.
 
Shootblue said:
I know there are a gazillion looks possible...I just don't understand the thought process behind shipping the cameras where they look like crap
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These are not consumer cameras and the engineers expect that a professional will take the time to dial in the settings to suit his/her taste. If you begin with a blank, neutral canvas, it is easier to achieve different looks than if the camera already has a certain look baked in. Of course, if someone doesn't do their duty to spend an hour learning the camera and making a few changes, then they may never like the way the camera looks. Today's HD cameras are not Betacams where you just turn them on, white balance, and start rolling. And I'm not just talking about the paint menus either, there are dozens of time-saving and cool features and functions that a lot of people don't even know about because they don't bother to crack open the manual or get some training.
 
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focusthis said:
Thanks all! I'll take a look at those settings when I get back to the newsroom Monday. I wonder if they match the "BBC" profile loaded by our engineers. As for the highlights, I wish the camera wouldn't override my physical input. If I open the iris, it makes changes elsewhere.... it's that level of consumer grade functionality that gets on my nerves that I can't fully disable.
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Oh come on, you've got to be kidding! You come on here bitching about the camera and then it turns out you're running it on auto!!!! Why don't you download the manual and learn how to run it on manual like a professional is supposed to do. There is NOTHING on the camera that can't be set to manual and will hold whatever setting you set for as long as you want to use that setting. It's not the camera that has "consumer grade functionality".

Also, the BBC settings aren't very nice. If you want a camera that looks like it was setup by an engineer, then by all means use them . . . but then you'll be complaining the camera doesn't look good. Well, no kidding, you don't turn to engineer to setup a camera to make pretty pictures. Take the time to dial in the settings yourself until YOU are happy with them.
 
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Shootblue said:
However, when it isn't it does tend to make some flat, colorized highlights in my opinion. Whether this is a function of the CMOS, processing, 35mb, 8 bit, etc, I don't know.
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It's purely a function of not having the right paint settings and the correct exposure. Period.

Here are a few links to some of my videos at Vimeo that were shot with my EX3 and EX1 -- which are pretty much the exact same cameras as the PMW-320 except in smaller bodies. Nothing has been graded or adjusted in post.
I'm not saying every shot is good, but the majority of them show what the cameras are capable of on a consistent basis. Blacks are correct, color is vibrant, and highlights are not blown out and no color shifting.

https://vimeo.com/5640202
https://vimeo.com/5425091
https://vimeo.com/12692074
https://vimeo.com/10322240
 
Douglas said:
Here are a few links to some of my videos at Vimeo that were shot with my EX3 and EX1 -- which are pretty much the exact same cameras as the PMW-320 except in smaller bodies. Nothing has been graded or adjusted in post.
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Just for a little clarity on my part...are these all with the famous "Douglas Jensen Picture Profile" loaded into the camera or were these variations on that PP?

Gorgeous video! Having you share things like this, apart from your knowledge, is very appreciated.
 
I've done some research over the years so I have a pretty good idea of what most of the paint functions do...For the rest, I'd bet 4 out of 5 news photographers and a number of freelancers don't know what these things do, other than maybe they are told to dial in certain settings for a producer.

I know that you need a baseline of tools for these things...resolution chart, DSC chip chart, WFM/VS etc...and not everyone has or can afford those things. I also know that there is a very small amount of information out there as to what these menu options do and how and why to adjust them. The manuals have such limited information on these things that it is frequently useless. Manufacturers or SBE or someone has failed to get it out there for whatever reason.

Sony used to have some informational PDF's on camera settings I found years ago...and there was the "Broadcast Dave's" site that had some 600 settings. A few other scattered ones as well.

I know you have some input with the Sony people...I would really encourage you to have them put out some guides on these things or if they already have them, make them more findable. If you or anyone have any informational links or anything of the sort, I know we here would appreciate them.
 
Doug, I find the BBC settings to be a good baseline. Everyone prefers a different look, but at a station, it will be staff engineers setting a fleet of cameras up, not each photog. Ideally they'd have a single look across the station or network which is what the BBC settings are trying to achieve. But the SD settings look great when you're shooting in an SD setting - downconverters especially cheaper ones don't deal well with downsampling HD detail to NTSC, and so the extra "unsharpening" helps the resulting SD picture.

I'd like to send my camera in to Roger Macie to see what he has to tweak on it and what the results are. His tweaked 600 Betacams looked great.

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I've already asked our Sony reps over half a year ago (with a "we're working on it" response) about the following:

- The audio meters on the LCD are pretty useless. The blocks are pretty arbitrary from a daily use point of view - you have no idea where your reference of -20dbFS is. Your only reference point is 0dBFS, which by that point your audio is destroyed. I aim for my audio to hover below the second digits of timecode. Since we set a reference setting in the menus (eg. -20dbFS = 0VU = +4dBu) then anything over that reference should be say, a hollow square or a yellow square?

- If you put Cache Record feature onto the Assignable 2 switch, you lose timelapse features in the menu. You can assign that feature to 1, 3, 4 or 5.. just not 2 and retain the timelapse feature in the menu. WHY!??


Probably impossible improvements without major hardware/manufacturing tooling changes:

- make a separate RECORD LED in the colour viewfinder. The single red dot with "REC" is difficult to know if you're recording or not... a red LED in your peripheral vision works well.

- separate the digital extender option from the studio back option. If someone can tell me why anyone in a studio uses a digital extender, please let me know. In the field when the cops kick you 3 blocks back from the scene so you can put in your optical AND digital extenders. Plus it's valuable especially at night - no loss of light from the digital extender. If it works as well as the 700, the resolution loss is minimal and more importantly, you get the shot.

- Why is the Slot Select button on the right side of the camera?!? i'm told they put the slots on the right so an assistant can remove/insert cards without bothering the operator. That said, credit is due: putting the card slots vertically is smart - no accidental ejection of the wrong card with fat fingers a la Panasonic. I want a camera assistant too.

- Pool video in option. The PMW-500 has it.
 
Oh yes I have used this camcorder many times for recording important promotions and events during my career. This is just amazing one. It is newest in edition, used for digital creative recording and it consists of features like low light capability. It has got impressive features.
 
Lensmith said:
Just for a little clarity on my part...are these all with the famous "Douglas Jensen Picture Profile" loaded into the camera or were these variations on that PP?
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John, thanks for the comments. I wouldn't call my PP famous, but 99% of those videos were shot with the same PP that I've been using since the first day I got my hands on a pre-production EX1 exactly 5 years ago next week. The camera may have six PP memory banks, and thousands of combinations of settings (maybe millions), but like I said before, there are only about 5 things that need to be changed on any Sony camera.
 
Shootblue said:
I know that you need a baseline of tools for these things...resolution chart, DSC chip chart, WFM/VS etc...and not everyone has or can afford those things. I also know that there is a very small amount of information out there as to what these menu options do and how and why to adjust them. The manuals have such limited information on these things that it is frequently useless.
Click to expand...

I admit that there isn't a whole lot of information on some of the paint settings, especially if you get into the F800/700 level of cameras. However, it's not necessary to know what every menu does. I don't know what every menu does and I don't care. My eyes glaze over anytime I try to read about some of them.

I divide the paint menus into two categories:

1) Those that make a noticeable difference in the picture and MUST me paid attention to. There are only about five: matrix, gamma, black, detail, and black gamma.

2) Those that make virtually no difference whatsoever and can be ignored entirely unless you are trying to precisely match two cameras with scopes. Most of the menus, especially on the higher-end cameras fall into this category. You can crank them way up or way down and you will barely be able to see any difference at all. Leave them alone. They aren't going to help you, and they might hurt you.

Also, you don't need scopes or charts to set up a camera. I have done it many times with nothing more than a 40" consumer Bravia TV. Light a nice table top scene with bright whites, deep blacks, bold colors, and detail. Now dial in the settings until you like what you see. Go out and shoot shoot some test footage in the real world. Evaluate the test footage. What don't you like about it? Adjust the settings as necessary. Rinse and repeat until you are happy with the look of the camera.

Forget about scopes, charts, and production monitors that cost as much as a car. If the picture doesn't look good on a decent consumer TV, then the PP needs some tweaking.

And sending the camera out to a third-party for setting up is a waste of money. These aren't Betacams where you had to take off the side panel and make adjustments with a screw driver. Everything is menu based today. G ahead and screw around with the settings all you want until you see what they do - and then hit reset if you really make a mess out of it. Why would you assume an engineer/repairman would know better than you what looks good? Save your money.
 
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