Obama vs McCain, it already over

[Alaska cameradude]

Hey, Alaska dude, speaking of politics...whats up with your Uncle Ted up there?
Do people up there think he's innocent and it was a set up or what? I was kind of shocked when I was in Anchorage last summer and saw they had named the airport after him...while he was still alive! There's a real good reason why people wait till after someone is dead to
"honor" them. It's tough to "f**k up your reputation when you're six feet under!

Now that is the discussion of the day up here for sure. There are conflicting reports. The Feds are busting him for...well basically what it comes down to is that VECO (an oil services company) did some 'improvements' on Steven's Girdwood Alaska home (I don't think this fact is disputed). What is disputed, is, was it actually paid for?? Or was it some kind of 'kickback'? From what I've read, the Feds say VECO did $230,000 worth of improvements, and Sen. Stevens only paid $130,000. But I just read yesterday, that according to the city assessor, that the improvements were worth $120,000, and again Steven's paid $130,000 (this was just a quick story and I don't know much else about it so I don't know how much research went into it.) I am going to have to reserve judgement here as people are innocent until proven guilty. That said, the Fed's don't usually indict without some kind of evidence, AND they have a pretty good track record so far with 3 of the 4 Alaska political corruption cases so far have resulted in convictions...(the 4th one is being appealed by the Feds as some of their evidence has been thrown out.) And I don't know that it's done yet. Rumors are, Congressman Don Young may also be indicted (they are currently investigating him).

Also, I worked in the state capitol here (news photog/editor, before I started my own business), and there's a reason it's called the last frontier up here. I will say there was a 'Big Stink' of 'Big Oil' and their lobbyists up in the state capitol. I think a lot of people who worked up there knew this was coming for a couple years in advance, but pretty typical for politicians when big money, lobbyists and such are involved. Shoot, look at all our national politicians of BOTH parties that have had big scandals because of things like this. As a general rule, politics stinks to high heaven in my opinion.

The Anchorage airport was named after Sen. Steven's in appreciation of all the federal money he has managed to get for our state. Many people rip him for that, but those people don't live in Alaska or understand what Alaska is like. With almost no roads through most of the state and third world conditions outside of the urban area, Alaska needs money more than most states. I grew up with no electricity, running water, mail service, plumbing, had to fly on little planes to get into town (about $300 round trip for a 45 mile trip), no city services obviously or roads. And people wonder why Alaska needs the money!! Think gas prices in your area are bad? You should look at this article.
http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/080708/sta_315216365.shtml

Ya, that's right $10 a gallon in one of the LARGER villages in Alaska, it's worse in the smaller ones. Try almost half your income on energy costs. That's why this state seems to always be blamed for 'federal pork dollars'....cause it's needed here like few other places. Of course everyone has needs and people tend to see the ones in their backyard as more important, and that's only natural, so I am probably a bit biased.
Basically, though, even those that don't like Sen. Stevens and hope he goes down hard (the state democratic politicians running against him for example), even they will acknowledge that he has done a LOT to help our state.

 

[pre-set]

I can't see anything more "wrong" going on up there than anything across the river from me in West Virginia, just politics as usual.

Half the damn state is named "The Sen. Robert Byrd something-or-other"...

 

[Grip]

Basically, though, even those that don't like Sen. Stevens and hope he goes down hard (the state democratic politicians running against him for example), even they will acknowledge that he has done a LOT to help our state.

I dont know what you are seeing down there, but the only one who is really bashing Stevens is Vic Vickers the Republican. Both Don Young and Stevens are corrupt as hell, but they have brought so much money to the state that there are too many stupid loyal people.


It would be my vote that anything named after Stevens or Young should be named after Jay Hammond. Who I might add is a Republican(probably the last good one) and was also a vet. He was a conservative that believed in conservation and should be respected for his environmentally and fiscally responsible government.

 

[Alaska cameradude]

I dont know what you are seeing down there, but the only one who is really bashing Stevens is Vic Vickers the Republican. Both Don Young and Stevens are corrupt as hell, but they have brought so much money to the state that there are too many stupid loyal people.


It would be my vote that anything named after Stevens or Young should be named after Jay Hammond. Who I might add is a Republican(probably the last good one) and was also a vet. He was a conservative that believed in conservation and should be respected for his environmentally and fiscally responsible government.

Ya, that's pretty much what I mean, even the Democrats aren't bashing much, well, Mark Begich has one TV spot that does a little bashing, but as you said Vic Vickers is the one that is doing most of it. Also I think Sean Parnell is doing more attacking of Don Young than the Democrats. As you say, thats cause of all the money those guys have brought in to the state. The flip side of course, is that they got this money because of their seniority. But that means they have been in congress forever and my personal opinion is the longer a person stays there, the more corrupting influence there is, it's just politics in our nation these days, and with all the backdoor deal cutting and such, it's almost inevitable that there is some sort of corruption.

BTW, I agree about Hammond. He was a great governor, and especially popular because of course, the PFD. But his whole idea about the Permanent Fund was of course turning a non renewable resource into a renewable resource. Our nation would be better off if we had looked at doing more of that kind of thing as a nation.

 

[Wideangle]

Alaska Cameradude, this kind of reminds me of what happened
in Tennessee in the 80's. The feds indicted then U.S. Congressman Harold
Ford, (Junior's dad) for bribery charges involving Jake Butcher,
A promneint Tenn. banker at the time. The feds knew that their only chance to get a conviction would be to get a change
of venue out of Memphis, Ford's district where he was popular.
They of course were unsuccessful and Ford, guilty or not, was
aquitted in part because no jury in Memphis would have convicted him. I think this will probably be the case in Alaska
with Stevens. Guilty or not, they won't bite the hand that fed them!

 

[Alaska cameradude]

Alaska Cameradude, this kind of reminds me of what happened
in Tennessee in the 80's. The feds indicted then U.S. Congressman Harold
Ford, (Junior's dad) for bribery charges involving Jake Butcher,
A promneint Tenn. banker at the time. The feds knew that their only chance to get a conviction would be to get a change
of venue out of Memphis, Ford's district where he was popular.
They of course were unsuccessful and Ford, guilty or not, was
aquitted in part because no jury in Memphis would have convicted him. I think this will probably be the case in Alaska
with Stevens. Guilty or not, they won't bite the hand that fed them!

Interesting that you should say that....

From what I hear, Steven's has filed for a speedy trial which has been granted so he will have time to 'clear his name' before the November elections. However, the more interesting part, is that the trial is currently set to be held in D.C. Steven's lawyer has filed a change of venue request to have his trial held in Alaska. Because of course, all the witnesses are up here and everything took place up here and the convenience factor and everything else. From what I hear the Feds are fighting the change of venue thing tooth and nail. That may be the biggest decision that makes or breaks the case, where is the trial going to be held?....Because of exactly what you referenced.

 

[Wideangle]

I kind of figured as much....I'm betting he gets a change of venue. On similar note, I was up your way about a year ago
for a shoot. Was in Anchorage, Keeni, and Iliamna and really
enjoyed it. .Temperatures and weather were great . But you are right, it's a bit pricey. Got to go up in a DeHavilland Beaver
when I was in Iliamna. Not hard to see where it would be
a good thing to have your own float plane to get around in.
Anyway, you got a beautiful state up there.

 

[Canonman]

And I bet all the debating back and forth on internet forums is not going to change ANY of the votes of people who posted on this thread either!!

Well stated, AC! I keep looking for choice (C) as well. Was looking in the last 2 presidential elections and never found it.

cm

 

[Freddie Mercury]

It not over

It may be over in your mind, but in reality there is a lot more to go. They haven't even picked running mates yet, they haven't debated head-to-head, and Hillary may still not go away quietly.

Put me down as offended at your suggestion that being a POW makes a person a failure. I don't think you really mean that. I don't give a crap who you vote for, but I would hope you would recognize how ridiculous that statement is.

My choice for the next president: Obama. Why? Because I would like a strong conservative in the White House. McCain isn't even close. Obama will be like Carter, and then the stage will be set for another Reagan. If we make it.

 

[Grip]

Put me down as offended at your suggestion that being a POW makes a person a failure. I don't think you really mean that. I don't give a crap who you vote for, but I would hope you would recognize how ridiculous that statement is.

I meant what I said..... so I will put you down. But I didn't say he was a failure, I just was simply pointing out that just because you were a POW doesn't mean I am going to label you a hero. The whole mentality behind someone saying McCain would be a better president because he was a POW is absolutely ridiculous.

It was pre-set that started putting words in my mouth and then he got all fixated on McCains testicles. I just don't go handing out the hero term lightly.

And I disagree with you AC, debating back and forth on internet forums is not going to change ANY of the votes, should be changed to many of the the votes. I believe there is a very good possibilty that say maybe some people didnt know that Obama supports the troops, and through his voting record A LOT more than McCain.

In fact I bet if you polled the average Republican they would think that the voting record would be the other way around. So you are right for the most part, a lot of people are set in their choices, but through debate, information is shared, and some people might be able to get past their hatred for facts and information and look beyond the GOP lies and hypocrisies.

 

[Alaska cameradude]

And I disagree with you AC, debating back and forth on internet forums is not going to change ANY of the votes, should be changed to many of the the votes. I believe there is a very good possibilty that say maybe some people didnt know that Obama supports the troops, and through his voting record A LOT more than McCain.

In fact I bet if you polled the average Republican they would think that the voting record would be the other way around. So you are right for the most part, a lot of people are set in their choices, but through debate, information is shared, and some people might be able to get past their hatred for facts and information and look beyond the GOP lies and hypocrisies.

Well, I don't have much stock in either one, because to be honest with you I dislike them both. BUT that being said....YOU say that Obama supports the troops more than McCain, based on voting records. YOU seem to think that your 'truth' can change the minds of the 'GOP lies and hypocrisies'. But on the other hand, you seem to disregard the fact that maybe Obama supports 'Big Oil' more than McCain, based on voting records....coming up with other reasons why Obama did this. Don't you just bet the 'misguided republicans' would be able to come up with some other reasons for McCain's votes as well?? So you defend Obama at every turn and then rip McCain and it's pretty silly. McCain was not a good soldier because he was a POW, but McCain voted for 'Big Oil' because the bill also include alternative energy solutions???? I dunno about that......No one is inherently good well the other is inherently evil. Sorry, I just don't believe it. And so you agree with Obama....that's fine. I just don't think what you pass off as 'facts and information' is any different from the 'GOPs lies and hypocrisies'....except that it is slanted the other way. Of course you don't see it that way because it's truth to you. But if you just allow for a second that the other guy sees their 'lies and hypocrisies' as truth....I'm betting they will see your truth as......'lies and hypocrisies'. To me, that is the most irritating thing from many who are more liberal than I. They just REFUSE to admit that I have a legitimate point of view....because after all, theirs is the only REAL world view. I don't try to change their view, although I will talk about why I believe what I do with them,

I am not a Republican, but I vote for whomever I think is the best person for office, which in my 'misguided view' tends to be more conservatives than liberals. That being said, I have worked on campaigns for Democrats that I agreed with including doing the TV spots for a state Democrat last year that won a state house bid in what was called the 'upset of the state' by KTUU, doing the TV spots for the mayor of our town (who was attorney general under Tony Knowles and is also a Democrat) and two other state legislators who are Democrats. So you see, if ANYONE would be able to be convinced, it would maybe be me. But Obama.....he's just not doing it. I am never going to believe that he is a 'middle of the road' kind of guy. He a big time wowzer liberal. That's fine for all you guys who are liberals, but not for those of use who don't agree with that stuff. So then you ask, why did I ever vote for or help a Democrat? You see, up here in Alaska, our Democrats are far more conservative than the national brand of Democrat, you will even see Mark Begich talking about this on one of his newest ads, saying he will take on his party where they are wrong and giving two examples of where the national Democrats are wrong. That's the kind of guy I can respect, he is admitting his party does not have some kind of hold on 'truth and the American way' and even admits the Republicans are right on those two issues. For him to admit to that (even though many liberals would disagree with him on this) says a lot about the guy to me. He agrees with some of the things I do, probably agrees with me more than he disagrees. I CAN NOT say this about Obama.

See, you think you won some big 'points' that will 'convince misguided GOP voters' to swing and vote for Obama. He is NOT some middle of the road Democrat like we have in Alaska. GOP voters just are not going to buy that. I have worked in politics basically my entire life. I know how that arguing politics is pretty much a waste of time. But of course that is just my opinion. So go back to convincing the misguided among us and good luck converting......I will be waiting for Preset to post on this very thread telling us of the error of his previous ways

 

[Freddie Mercury]

And while I respect his service to country, I wont admire him for being a POW, last time I checked, you arent supposed to get caught.

So you stand behind these words, particularly the last six. That's ignorant.

 

[Wideangle]

So you stand behind these words, particularly the last six. That's ignorant.
Freddie Mercury

I must have missed the line, "while the others were cowards and fought to the death,
he heroically surrendered and became a POW" from your book.

 

[Freddie Mercury]

I must have missed the line, "while the others were cowards and fought to the death,
he heroically surrendered and became a POW" from your book.

I believe some people will say anything, whether they believe it or not, to try to make a point while arguing with someone they will never meet. You can't convince me that you feel that anyone who was captured in combat should have fought rather than surrender and that they therefore are a coward. You're just trying to hold your ground. I get that. It's pathetic, but I get it.

 

[Wideangle]

I get that. It's pathetic, but I get it. Freddie Mercury

No...apparently you don't. I never said they were necessarily a coward, I
just don't think of them as heroes. The heroes I think of are lined up across the river from me in Arlington Cemetery. They gave the ultimate sacrifice...their lives.
A hero to me is someone who puts others ahead of his or her own life.
Who are you thinking of saving when you surrender? ...It's kind of how
Republicans think, self-preservation first. It's easy in that sense to see why you guys on the right consider a POW a hero, while those on the left would be more inclined to
go along with the definition that I just laid out...a hero being one who self-sacrificed for the well being of others.
.

 

[Grip]

I have worked in politics basically my entire life. I know how that arguing politics is pretty much a waste of time. But of course that is just my opinion.

It kind of sounds like you are saying you have wasted your time.... as far as politics goes, there will always be a debate, and someone will always get elected, regardless of anyones opinion.

As it stands, McCain does not support the troops, and his voting record backs that up.

McCain has no family values, remember him having an affair while his wife was sick.

So here are two VERY valid points that your normal conservative is going to choke on. Yeah Obama is liberal, but he has supported the troops and he never cheated on his wife. After listening to the conservatives cry and moan about Clinton and his lack of values, McCains actions have been twice as bad, yet I dont hear any of the same people that complained about Clinton getting a blow job talking about what McCain did to his sick ex-wife.

So just to refresh, the GOP stands for small amounts of government spending and family values, and supporting the troops......yeah right.

 

[Alaska cameradude]

It kind of sounds like you are saying you have wasted your time.... as far as politics goes, there will always be a debate, and someone will always get elected, regardless of anyones opinion.

As it stands, McCain does not support the troops, and his voting record backs that up.

McCain has no family values, remember him having an affair while his wife was sick.

So here are two VERY valid points that your normal conservative is going to choke on. Yeah Obama is liberal, but he has supported the troops and he never cheated on his wife. After listening to the conservatives cry and moan about Clinton and his lack of values, McCains actions have been twice as bad, yet I dont hear any of the same people that complained about Clinton getting a blow job talking about what McCain did to his sick ex-wife.

So just to refresh, the GOP stands for small amounts of government spending and family values, and supporting the troops......yeah right.

First, I DID get PAID for my work. You know, creating TV political ads isn't horrible money. And when I was a news photog covering politics, ya the money wasn't great,($14 or $15 an hour) but at the time I was single and didn't have any bills so it seemed ok to me. So I wouldn't exactly say I wasted my time as I was compensated. As a matter of fact, the money I made as a news photog, little though it was, was the money I used to buy a camera, editing system, lights and mics and started my business. Ya there will always be a debate, I just wouldn't count on your opinion swaying any voters. This from listening to conservatives and liberals debate endlessly, I can't tell you how many nights on the state house floor I stood videotaping them debate until 2am.....and no matter what, the vote was always the same. The Republicans voted in a block, and the Democrats voted in a block. It was actually kind of a running joke.

As for GOP hypocrisy, yes there is definitely some there. I merely say there is an equal amount on the other side. All those (liberal) people defending Clinton's actions as 'no big deal' and saying 'it has no bearing on his job as a president' are now the same people jumping all over McCain.....try and explain that one. They are NOT defending his actions as they did Clinton's. I myself am consistent. I said Clinton was a scumbag for it and wouldn't vote for him because of it. I say the same for McCain. Shame on you and you won't be getting my vote.

As for who supports the troops more....I will say that if Obama supports the troops more than McCain,....he also supports Big Oil more. You can't have it both ways with the voting records there, explaining away Obama's vote in support of Big Oil tax breaks, while not allowing McCain supporters to explain away his vote.

So ya, I guess the one thing I DO know for sure is that I will be voting for a candidate that will LOSE the election and not even come close to either of the two frontrunners.

And one more thing, conservatives DO stand for less government spending, and family values and supporting the troops. Republicans are not always true conservatives (current administration anyone?) See that's why some of us conservatives don't always vote Republican. Here in Alaska there are some Democrats who are actually more true to those values. That's why I vote Democratic sometimes. But trying to portray the conservatives as hypocritical and everything without ever pointing out the same things on 'your' side of the aisle.....I'd say THAT is a bit disingenuous.
Or maybe you REALLY don't think 'the liberal side' does these sort of things....(they do, I can give you plenty of examples from here in Alaska politics.)

 

[Freddie Mercury]

No...apparently you don't. I never said they were necessarily a coward, I
just don't think of them as heroes. The heroes I think of are lined up across the river from me in Arlington Cemetery. They gave the ultimate sacrifice...their lives.
A hero to me is someone who puts others ahead of his or her own life.
Who are you thinking of saving when you surrender? ...It's kind of how
Republicans think, self-preservation first. It's easy in that sense to see why you guys on the right consider a POW a hero, while those on the left would be more inclined to
go along with the definition that I just laid out...a hero being one who self-sacrificed for the well being of others.
.

Don't hurt yourself tripping as you backpeddle. I gave you and Grip both a chance to take back your implications. My point was never about calling a POW a hero, and I was very clear about that. You both implied that a prisoner should be ashamed that they were not killed instead of being captured.

 

[Grip]

All those (liberal) people defending Clinton's actions as 'no big deal' and saying 'it has no bearing on his job as a president' are now the same people jumping all over McCain.....try and explain that one. They are NOT defending his actions as they did Clinton's. I myself am consistent. I said Clinton was a scumbag for it and wouldn't vote for him because of it. I say the same for McCain. Shame on you and you won't be getting my vote.

As for who supports the troops more....I will say that if Obama supports the troops more than McCain,....he also supports Big Oil more. You can't have it both ways with the voting records there, explaining away Obama's vote in support of Big Oil tax breaks, while not allowing McCain supporters to explain away his vote.

Once again that was one vote, and it represented the largest investment in renewable sources of energy in the history of this country. Yeah there was money going back to big oil, and it wasnt perfect but it was a step in the right direction.

Now as far as Clinton.... yeah I dont think I would call someone a scumbag because he got a blowjob. The leader of the free world should have someone there for such services. And if you want to compare the two, I would say that neither are right, but cheating and abandoning the sick are two different things.

Keep in mind that McCain also just last week, paraded his wife on the same stage that a sixteen year old girl defiled herself with a cucumber. Yeah I want the next first lady to be Ms Buffolo Chip.


Freddie.... please give it up... I never said he should be ashamed, just not proud.

 

[Freddie Mercury]

Freddie.... please give it up... I never said he should be ashamed, just not proud.

I appreciate your politeness. Will you please tell me what you meant when you said "you aren't supposed to get caught"?