Sony "Truck" Tour

[dhart]

In the continuing story on what's going to replace BetacamSP checkout

Sony "Truck Tour"

More specs on the DVD Camcorder. It would seem Sony has the edge on metadata, network ability and transmission rates. Also nice "pool" features I have not seen on the Panny gear. Guess this "truck tour" is rambling all over the US so we can take a closer look. Anyone else seen it?

I'm going to Detroit to personally checkout the DVD Camcorder on November 7th. Wonder if they'll let me swing the camcorder around while recording something? Or how about a hard knock whilst recording? These are my acid tests.

Sony appears to be going thru some tough times, saw in the newspaper they are laying off a ton of people. Never want to count that company out, it is a tough competitor.

 

[joecam147]

It will be interesting to get your feedback on the camera after you have seen it.

I just participated in a Varicam demo and that camera is HOT!
Not really designed for news but more high end obviously more for alternative to film with a lot of film features.
MHO is that Panasonic is finally making inroads on Sony. I would say a high percentage of local news in the US is now DVCPro and although a lot of HDTV programming is shot with the CineAlta, the Panasonic seems to be the favorite of the 'film' guys because it has a lot of 'film' features that Sony does not. The camera end was also designed by a bunch of ex-Ikegami engineers so the camera makes nice pictures. Sony wont go away but they are really getting a run for their money and perhaps will not end up ruling the world after all.

 

[Dave Putnam]

The Sony truck was parked outside our station last week. The ABC owned stations engineering hochos and Disney video folks were holding a meeting to discuss future technology so Sony had their truck there for a demo.

The best way to describe the truck is to picture a small corner of Sony's booth at NAB. Some of the stuff on board is still vaporware but they had lots of cameras to shoulder and play with. I would say it would be well worth your time to see it if the tour is coming to a location near you.

There were plenty of folks to talk to from the factory and sales department. I only had a few minutes to glance around but could have easily spent a couple of hours there if I had the time.

They did not have the NTSC version of the PD 170 however one of the sales people told me that an announcement would probably be made about it in the next couple of months.

 

[imported_blank]

One thing I noticed from the "truck tour link". Sony isn't ready to give up on tape just yet. Seems that in the "truck" they are still highlighting many tape-camcorders and VTRs. In fact one of their featured highlights seems to be the new and improved entry level Betacam SX camcorder. DNW-7/2

FYI-- I would not use the term "DVD" to describe the new line of Sony broadcast disk products. These new products encode and decode DVcam and IMX codecs, not the 3Mbps to 7Mbps DVD. You wouldn't call a betacam product by the betamax label, would you? Recently a Sony rep told me that the actual name of their professional & broadcast disk based products is called XDcam

If you really want a Sony "DVD" recordable camera, they have three. No doubt the consultants will push for the broadcasters to save a buck and get these consumer units instead.

sony consumer dvd camcorder

----------------------------
I'd like to see a side by side comparison between the "XDcam PDW-530" & the " IMX Betacam MSW-900 ". (both are part of the truck tour) I know the pic quality will be similar as they both use IMX with the same cam-head (beta tapes versus disk) I also know that a disk based product can have many features that a tape based product can't - but - I'm still not fully convinced about the "ROBUSTNESS" of burning to a removable disk in the field. I have never seen one in action nor have I seen a review about one from an actual non anonymous third party person actually doing long term testing on one of these...

 

[cameragod]

I wonder if they will make a version of the Xdcam as a separate back to use with existing camera heads. That would be very cool.

 

[dhart]

Ivan, just what this industry needs is another format; XDCAM! What I was thinking about recently was a dual or perhaps triple recording camcorder to ease the transition from BetacamSP to whatever. How about tape and XDCAM and/or a solid state recording device in one camcorder? Wouldn't be all that hard to do technically. Flip a switch and you're recording the way the producer needs it. There's room for tape XDCAM and solid state in the record section. But knowing the format gods it will never happen and of course it makes too much sense.

 

[imported_blank]

Hey CG, if the XDcam format takes off, I have no doubt that Sony will make a back -end XDcam. They already have a new front-end that uses the same CCDs as the IMX MSW-900 & the XDcams.

Here is the new dockable front end
DXCD50WSL

--------------------
Dhart, although it wouldn't be that hard to add a beta deck to the new cameras - it would bump the cost up by thousands. Personally, I don't think anyone would be willing to spend the extra cash.

Sony is trying to standardize (high end) SD to IMX, so if all the SD routers, switchers and servers get standardize on IMX - it won't matter if you send them XDcam disk or BetaCam tape. I'm sure the major broadcasters and post houses will have a few IMX Beta decks kicking around for years - and those VTRs will take in SP, SX or Digi-Beta and automatically convert the signal to IMX - ready to pass through.

I think the big thing in the future will be for cameramen to upload their material to the studios, houses etc. Again, IMX is IMX, so it won't matter if you're sending from tape or disk as long as it's gonna be going native. (most likely IMX native stream via MXF.)

Of course High Def is a whole new ball game. So it depends what you shoot and for who. I see that recently FOX commiteted to the new SR-HDcam beta tape for network program delivery.
http://pro.sony.com.hk/pr20030915h.html

---------------------------------------
Check this out
XDCAM Professional Disc System Wins Prestigious IABM Peter Wayne Award

Also
The "BIRTV Spectacular Product Award (China)

The "BIRTV Spectacular Product Award" for Innovation and Technology was presented to Sony in recognition of its achievement in the XDCAM Professional Disc systems PDW Series. Sony HDCAM-SR series and its SRW-5000 studio recorder are awarded the first "BIRTV Most Anticipated Technology Award".

And some of you chaps say that Sony is going down?

 

[HDTV]

Instead of yet another standard definition format, I would rather see the manufacturers put their efforts into developing a clearer migration path to High Definition.

HD has been slow to catch on...but I think that within the next year or so, we freelancer's may be looking at 50-50 HD vs. SD shoots.

So...why not develop a camera that shoots in native 16:9 HD, but also has the capability to record a down-converted SD signal in either 16:9 or 4:3?

That certainly couldn't be any more difficult to produce than this new disc camera that records 5 or so different formats...but it would be a whole lot more useful.

This would allow us to work in the highest quality SD today...and migrate to HD as that market builds.

I just don't get the reason for another SD format that none of us can justify purchasing.

 

[Dedline]

Sony is pitching a disk camera. Pana is pitching solid state. Hitachi is also pitching a disk camera. Any others out there? We are serious about looking at whatever camera can interface cleanly with our server system. Whatever the format, as long as my photogs can slip in a disk or chip and start editing straight from it without digitizing into our non-linear system.... now that would be dope.
any idea what the sony camera will list for?

 

[dhart]

I believe the price point these days for EFP SD camcorders is $25-30K w/o lens. Either the DVD or solidstate "VTR" would be much cheaper to produce than a tape VTR but they would want to recover their R&D on the new record systems.

 

[imported_blank]

Well, for me, this thread is turning out to be almost as enjoyable as a good 4:2:2 discussion. (thanks dhart )

As for the U.S. List Price - guys, the prices are shown on the Sony site.
PDW Series XD-Camcorders

The top line PDW530 lists for $34,000. This one will record/pb in both IMX and DVcam and has duel filter wheels.

The entry level PDW510 lists for $19,900. This one will record/pb only in DVcam and has only one filter wheel.

So as you see dhart, not all optical disk decks are created equal, nor do they sell for equal prices. Both camcorders have the same super high quality CCD block as the MSW-900 Betacam - yet the "IMX XDcam" unit costs almost twice as much as the "DVcam XDcam" unit. No one can tell me that a duel filter wheel alone will bump the price up by $14,000. (from $20,000 to $34,000) The "extra" price of getting studio (IMX) quality

------------------------------
As much as I like Ikegami, I think their "dinky tape" driven HL-DV7W DVcam is going to be in trouble. I understand that you can get one for around $11K. I bet soon you will be able to get the XDcam PDW510 (DVcam on disk) for around 15K.

I seen the picture from the MSW-900 Betacam and that newly developed EX CCD system with over one million pixels per CCD with extremely low smear kicks ass over any previous 520k system including Panasonic's Ikegami's and Sony's. Of course that is recorded on Mpeg-2 -- 4:2:2 @ 50Mbps and not DVcam 4:1:1 @ 25Mbps but I bet even the DVcam signal with the EX CCD looks better then the Ike.

Not to mention that the new Sony cams can record in P. (progressive scan mode @ 30p). What this means is that you can capture 30fps progressive - then in HDTV post, interlace it from the progressive signal and you end up with over 960i. Sure this won't be as nice as true HD 1080i with over 2 million pix but it will look closer to HD then any 520k 486i system upconverted to HD. Although up converting from a 4:1:1 25Mbps format to HDTV is rather silly in my opinion and anyone thinking of doing this should at least go with the 50Mbps 4:2:2 MSW-900 betacam or PDW-530 IMX XDcam.

Also both XDcams have an option for a video card that will record true 24p (24-frame capture in CCD.) Although in my opinion this is rather stupid to do with "any" SDTV format...

In any case, the new XDcams have many features not found on previous SD ENG cameras from any manufacture. If (and I stress if) this new professional disk system turns out to be robust and trouble free then the other manufactures better pay attention.

-------------------------------
PANASONIC
As to Panasonic's new system recording straight to memory chip -- no doubt this is more robust then any removable disk or tape system could ever be - but --- I can't imagine contractors, freelancers and independents using this in the near future. The cost of shipping memory chips instead of tapes or plastic disks just seems too costly today. I can see this being used for in-house news shops were no shipping of removable media is involved. I can see this being used in the ""future"" when all independent cameramen will upload their material to a company server were the edit bay, producer and network/station/house will have immediate access to the footage. But for now I have to say removable plastic disks are more feasible then memory chips. Especially for everyday freelance work...

-------------------------------
IKEGAMI
Ike has been pushing their hard disk (dockable system) for a few years now. But it doesn't look like many companies are biting. Even though the Ike system will record in DV25 DV50 and IMX - you still can't remove a tape or plastic disk - you still have to ship the hard-drive or upload the footage just like with the Pani system...
DNR-20 IKE dockable hard disk recorder

 

[dhart]

Just finished reading the latest TV Technology and buried in an article about IBC Convention was a comment about Microsoft Windows Media 9. Aparently Microsoft has finally decided to make WM9 "open source" code. What does that mean to our discussion? Well, even if we do get these new DVD like or solid state recording devices that do not require "digitizing" we still have to face a number of serious codec issues. Each NLE uses a different codec and all our nifty new recordings will need to be changed unless there is a standard like WM9. Like Microsoft or not(and believe me I loath MS OS and software with every fiber of my being!) this giant could tame all this stuff and impose a standard codec that could speed our transition. Is that a good thing? You decide.

BTW have been playing the past week (in my spare time of course) with Panasonic's AJ-SDX900 Camcorder. That is one very sweet camcorder! Very Sony like. Also all the bells and whistles of it's big brother at a cost of only $25K. However and here in my opinion is where all these new tape based cameras are going to crash and burn. Where are the studio VTR's capable of playing back the tape in the edit suite? This unit plays back DVCPRO 50 which is very close to Digibeta but anyone here had a call for DVCPRO 50? Not me. Did like the 24P feature,reminded me of my old 16mm newsfilm days. But I didn't have to change mags in a black bag in the broiling sun!

 

[joecam147]

the Panny sdx900 is indeed the little brother to the varicam but SD instead of HD and without variable frame rate....

All this stuff is very nice and makes us all drool but most of it requires additional support devices in order for it to be useable on an every day basis but i don't see anybody (freelancers) buying any of it because its
a. all rather expensive
b. all very new and unproven and
c. too many choices
The only people that can afford to buy into anything new is rental shops and Networks.
I mean come on who's going to budge off Beta when each new camera and tape format raises more questions than it answers and is unproven. Is it possible for Sony and Panasonic to come up with any more tape formats ? Wait till NAB, I guarantee at least two more, It makes my head spin. The only movement i see is people switching from film to HD video because its cheaper and its pretty nice pictures compared to film unlike the bastard child SD NTSC video.
How long is it going to take NBC,CBS, ABC, CNN and Fox to make up their mind whats it going to be and do you think it will be just one thing, not much of chance of that. I don't think we will ever see a format as widely accepted and entrenched as Beta because there are just too many ways to make good pictures and no clear cut format leader with 'the next best thing'. Will it be SD, HD, tape, disk, hard drive, solid state memory ? Unfortunately for the freelancer i believe it will be all of them, good luck trying to service everybody. Why doesn't somebody come up with an HD camera that does everything, outputs HD, SD, on any format or codec and make it as cheap as DVCam, guaranteed to rule the world in two years, I'd buy one... maybe two.