TimG
Well-known member
Wow you guys have been busy since last I checked in.
Here's what I suggest. Let's try a new thread. This one will be about Osama and his tactics and the War on Terror and what we do to win it. If anyone has something meaningful to contribute let's let them join in and we'll have a nice conversation. If anyone just wants to say; "You suck because you hate America, and I'm gonna tell your boss and get you fired." Just ignore them. I mean it. No response. Just pretend the comment wasn't made.
I don't mean to be condescending but having read 5 pages of that last thread it was pathetic to see how Lake4 just spouted the same crap and watch it devolve into a you-said-he-said cat fight. Do you think he sincerely wanted a dialog or do you think he was just trying to get a rise out of you? Remember. He started that thread.
With that said, let me extend an olive branch to our nemesis - I would love to find a conservative that could articulately explain their opinions and constructively express why they disagree with mine. That would be of real value to me.
. . . and with the hope that this thread also doesn't devolve into name calling, some ground rules:
1. We all love America. All of us - Liberals, Conservatives and those "On-the-Fence".
2. If anyone gets mad, no one is going to call anyone else's boss and try to get them fired . . . . or threaten them with bodily harm.
3. We all have a deep respect for our soldiers - those "boots on the ground" in Iraq and elsewhere. All of us spouting our self-satisfied nonsense realize this and any opinions against the use of force in Iraq or elsewhere should not be construed as calling Marines; "baby killers".
Anyways here's my opinion:
The best thing that ever happened to Osama Bin Laden and al Queda was the invasion of Iraq. It legitimized al Queda and allowed Osama Bin Laden to rationalize his terrorist tactics as a "defense to Islam against the invading infidels". Hamas was able to gain control over Palestine using the same tactics. Israel used/uses extreme force in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon - killing thousands of innocent noncombatants and the result is that extremists are main-streamed - gladly voted into office by the surviving members of families killed by Israeli attacks.
We are making the same mistakes in Iraq. Due to our government's insistence on using blunt force to fight the war on terror we have mainstreamed many of the world's extremist organizations. Before Bush took control, al Queda had very little international support. Now people come from around the world to swell it's ranks and governments in The Middle East can no longer publicly denounce them for fear of losing popularity. The truth is al Queda and Osma Bin Laden are more powerful and popular today than they have ever been. I would argue that this is directly due to the Bush Administration's foreign policies and assert that the worst thing we can do in our attempt to win this war is continue those policies. I would contend that we must focus on stabilizing Iraq and Afghanistan through peaceful negotiations. This will take high-level negotiations with other Middle Eastern countries, in particular, Iran and Syria. We must bring peace to Iraq and Afghanistan and through peace, prove that democracy can survive in the Middle East. From what I've read, this was the Neo-Con's goal by invading Iraq in the first place. Their strategy was to plant the seed of Democracy in this theocratic / monarchy-ridden area of the world in order to help stabilize the area politically. What they failed to perceive was how serious the Sunni-Shiite conflict was and that is why we are bogged down in Iraq.
Even so, I believe we must clean up the Bush Administration's mess. We must stay-the-course. We must stabilize Iraq if we wish to win this war on Terror and marginalize al Queda. Extremists thrive amidst conflict. They need it to maintain their control. Pulling out now would, as Lake4 says, "create a blood-bath" and it would also create a haven for any and all extremist organizations in the world - a lawless country mired in bloody civil war.
BUT! Despite what Mr. Lake4 would have you believe, Osama Bin Laden is very aware that his recruitment successes over the past years are directly due to the actions of the Bush Administration. This idea that Bin Laden likes Democrats is crap. He hates us. We stand for everything he and his warped sense of the teachings of the Koran despise. Namely, separation of church and state, freedom of religion, freedom of sexual preference, women's rights. The list goes on. I guarantee you that Bin Laden has more in common with neo-conservatives and would feel more comfortable at a GOP convention than hanging out with your generic liberal at a coffee shop. He wants the Republicans to maintain control in the US. He knows that our current foreign policy is critical to his success and he also understands that in order for that policy to continue, Republicans must win the elections. This is why he went public less than a week before the primaries. He wants to hurt the Democrats anyway he can and he knows that publicly "supporting them" or suggesting support is a great way to achieve it.
Tim
Here's what I suggest. Let's try a new thread. This one will be about Osama and his tactics and the War on Terror and what we do to win it. If anyone has something meaningful to contribute let's let them join in and we'll have a nice conversation. If anyone just wants to say; "You suck because you hate America, and I'm gonna tell your boss and get you fired." Just ignore them. I mean it. No response. Just pretend the comment wasn't made.
I don't mean to be condescending but having read 5 pages of that last thread it was pathetic to see how Lake4 just spouted the same crap and watch it devolve into a you-said-he-said cat fight. Do you think he sincerely wanted a dialog or do you think he was just trying to get a rise out of you? Remember. He started that thread.
With that said, let me extend an olive branch to our nemesis - I would love to find a conservative that could articulately explain their opinions and constructively express why they disagree with mine. That would be of real value to me.
. . . and with the hope that this thread also doesn't devolve into name calling, some ground rules:
1. We all love America. All of us - Liberals, Conservatives and those "On-the-Fence".
2. If anyone gets mad, no one is going to call anyone else's boss and try to get them fired . . . . or threaten them with bodily harm.
3. We all have a deep respect for our soldiers - those "boots on the ground" in Iraq and elsewhere. All of us spouting our self-satisfied nonsense realize this and any opinions against the use of force in Iraq or elsewhere should not be construed as calling Marines; "baby killers".
Anyways here's my opinion:
The best thing that ever happened to Osama Bin Laden and al Queda was the invasion of Iraq. It legitimized al Queda and allowed Osama Bin Laden to rationalize his terrorist tactics as a "defense to Islam against the invading infidels". Hamas was able to gain control over Palestine using the same tactics. Israel used/uses extreme force in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon - killing thousands of innocent noncombatants and the result is that extremists are main-streamed - gladly voted into office by the surviving members of families killed by Israeli attacks.
We are making the same mistakes in Iraq. Due to our government's insistence on using blunt force to fight the war on terror we have mainstreamed many of the world's extremist organizations. Before Bush took control, al Queda had very little international support. Now people come from around the world to swell it's ranks and governments in The Middle East can no longer publicly denounce them for fear of losing popularity. The truth is al Queda and Osma Bin Laden are more powerful and popular today than they have ever been. I would argue that this is directly due to the Bush Administration's foreign policies and assert that the worst thing we can do in our attempt to win this war is continue those policies. I would contend that we must focus on stabilizing Iraq and Afghanistan through peaceful negotiations. This will take high-level negotiations with other Middle Eastern countries, in particular, Iran and Syria. We must bring peace to Iraq and Afghanistan and through peace, prove that democracy can survive in the Middle East. From what I've read, this was the Neo-Con's goal by invading Iraq in the first place. Their strategy was to plant the seed of Democracy in this theocratic / monarchy-ridden area of the world in order to help stabilize the area politically. What they failed to perceive was how serious the Sunni-Shiite conflict was and that is why we are bogged down in Iraq.
Even so, I believe we must clean up the Bush Administration's mess. We must stay-the-course. We must stabilize Iraq if we wish to win this war on Terror and marginalize al Queda. Extremists thrive amidst conflict. They need it to maintain their control. Pulling out now would, as Lake4 says, "create a blood-bath" and it would also create a haven for any and all extremist organizations in the world - a lawless country mired in bloody civil war.
BUT! Despite what Mr. Lake4 would have you believe, Osama Bin Laden is very aware that his recruitment successes over the past years are directly due to the actions of the Bush Administration. This idea that Bin Laden likes Democrats is crap. He hates us. We stand for everything he and his warped sense of the teachings of the Koran despise. Namely, separation of church and state, freedom of religion, freedom of sexual preference, women's rights. The list goes on. I guarantee you that Bin Laden has more in common with neo-conservatives and would feel more comfortable at a GOP convention than hanging out with your generic liberal at a coffee shop. He wants the Republicans to maintain control in the US. He knows that our current foreign policy is critical to his success and he also understands that in order for that policy to continue, Republicans must win the elections. This is why he went public less than a week before the primaries. He wants to hurt the Democrats anyway he can and he knows that publicly "supporting them" or suggesting support is a great way to achieve it.
Tim
