Rude Shooters

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SandRat

Well-known member
Has there been some edict issued saying television photographers need to be rude and surly on scene? If it was, I missed it.

I was at a federal courthouse in Reno and the security told us we needed to stay on the sidewalk and not on property. As soon as the people involved in the case came out of the building, 2 of the 6 photographers (one from Vegas and one from Reno) ran up to the building to get shots of the "perps". In the process of ignoring federal protocol, they also ruined the shot for the 4 remaining photographers who chose to politely obey the security guard's recommendations. To get the shot we needed and had to have, the rest of us grudgingly went on the fed property and got the shot.

Are these guys just stupid or do they actually think they own the place? As I'm part of the hiring process, I hope these guys don't show up at our shop for an interview. Their faces are burned into my memory and a snowball would have a better chance in hell than they will of getting a job here.

Remember, next time you are on a shoot and haven't had a good day or you're just an a-hole at heart, your future employer may be next to you so at least try to follow the rules and protocol(written and unwritten).

No tape, no matter how amazing, would help these guys get in our door now. If they can't be trusted to follow the rules of the field, there's no way they can be trusted as employees.

We're all in it together, so don't burn your compadres.
 
F

<FedProp>

Guest
Federal Property is public property. I don't have to stay on any sidewalk, so long as I am not going into a secure area. I would have walked right up and gotten the close shot as well. I'm more than willing to help out the other guys (did an uplink for a competeing station about 3 weeks ago, and UPLINK), but it isn't my job to make sure you get good video, and I am not going to *****foot around the area, scared that I might get in your shot. I don't expect you to care about me either.
 

photogguy

Well-known member
Originally posted by <FedProp>:
Federal Property is public property. I don't have to stay on any sidewalk, so long as I am not going into a secure area. I would have walked right up and gotten the close shot as well. I'm more than willing to help out the other guys (did an uplink for a competeing station about 3 weeks ago, and UPLINK), but it isn't my job to make sure you get good video, and I am not going to *****foot around the area, scared that I might get in your shot. I don't expect you to care about me either.
First, just because we fund the federal government does not mean federal property is public property. I worked near a federal installation, and we could never even begin to think of being on the grounds without security knowing about it beforehand.

Second, no, it's not your job to make sure the other shooters get good video, but remember, with that attitude, you can be sure they will make sure they ruin a shot you will try to get in the future. If we all work together shooting a clusket-f**k shoot like that, we will all get the shots we need. If one person gets selfish, you've not only ruined other photog's shots, you've ruined the spirit of cooperation that we as shooters count on. SandRat now has a lack of trust that can, and probably will, translate into him/her not wanting to cooperate with other stations in the future. We don't ask you to compromise your story, we just ask you to not compromise our story.
 

Lil' Photog

Well-known member
It's kind of an unwritten rule to cooperate in this situation. Be nice and everyone wins.

Now after the security guy said to stay back did any one say anything to make sure everyone was on the same page?

In a situation like that I would find out if anyone planned on running up anyway and either try to talk them out of it or just do it myself.

A little communication can go a long way, esp. when working with people who refuse to be cooperative.
 

Lensmith

Member
Originally posted by SandRat:
the security told us we needed to stay on the sidewalk and not on property.
If your version of what happened is accurate, you were dealing with a security guard. A nobody who was telling you what you could and could not do. If all the photogs there clearly knew and agreed to the rules, it's one thing. To let some federal rent-a-cop order you around is another.

It's a public area. Pedestrian traffic. I wouldn't look to mess your video over personally yet I don't follow orders from those not really in charge.

So tell me. What happened after those photogs "broke the rules"? Did the security guard do anything? Probably not. That's what most likely makes you madder than the photogs not playing nice.;o)

I don't know what "federal protocol" you're talking about. There is no such thing. Unless of course you mean "laws". Those photogs broke no laws. They seem to have gotten better video than you because they read the situation better and reacted.

This time they won. Personally I'm not impressed with someone who thinks being part of the hiring process will let them get revenge down the road for some percieved slight. I wouldn't work for someone like that.

Life's too short to get bent way out of shape over this. Your "rules" are your own. That's fine as long as you come back with as good or better video than your competition. That didn't happen this time.

I'm older but I don't sit back and play the "let's all cooperate" game unless I'm darn sure I can trust the other photogs on scene. I learned my lesson long ago both in the US and here in Central America after experiencing similar situations as yours.

A couple of basic truths about doing these kind of shoots.

One, you work with who is there and treat other photogs with the level of respect they deserve...if any.

Two, ignore the photogs who think they know all the rules and get upset when others know those rules don't apply to them.

I'm not slamming you as a person...just stirring the pot a bit. I'm saying you got a little lazy and want to blame someone besides yourself for having "second best" video. Get over it and have a beer or two. You'll know better next time.

If you made an honest, clear agreement with the other photogs and they broke the agreement then go ahead and be pissed. Expect it the next time you see them and have a plan how to deal with it so they don't screw you again.

If you've been doing this job for any length of time let's be honest...there are no rules if you come back with the best video.
 
F

<FedProp>

Guest
Originally posted by SandRat:
I was at a federal courthouse in Reno and the security told us we needed to stay on the sidewalk and not on property. As soon as the people involved in the case came out of the building, 2 of the 6 photographers (one from Vegas and one from Reno) ran up to the building to get shots of the "perps".
First off, let me guess, this is for the Binion trial. If that's the case, there are no rules...

Second... The guard said not to walk on property. It's a Fed Courthouse, and they are outside. That's a bull**** rule, and I would have laughed at you sticking to it. If you don't know it's a bull**** rule, go back to school. I'm trying not to flame here, but on a story this big, and a lame ass demand like that, you better believe I would break it any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Now just to clear up, I would never, nor have never, gone out of my way to ruin the comps shot, but remember, this is a game, and everyone is trying to win.

It's a perp walk, it's ment to be a clusterfu*k.
 

INLANDNEWS

Well-known member
Cooperation between competitors in the field can go a long way. Recently I was out on a story where the police were bringing a child abduction suspect back to the police department for questioning and booking. We were warned beforehand not to get in the way of the police officers escorting the suspect. The route of travel between the police unit and the backdoor of the police station was relatively short as well. There were also about 7 or so cameras and a handful of reporters. We all made a gentlemens agreement in the field to position ourselves in a line as not to obstruct each other's shot beforehand. When the suspect and arresting officers finally arrived, we all got the shot, no one was in the way and everyone was happy. All it takes is a little cooperation and pre-planning sometimes.

"keep panning, I don't see you...wait go back..Okay there..nope...go back..just a little more...woops...ahh...lets try another mountaintop! :mad:
 

Flash-Frame

Well-known member
If the public can go there, so can Joe Photog. Tell the rent-a-sly to go find a mall.

If there was an agreement made amongst Photogs, you should honor that. You may find a nail in your tire.

Of course Federal property does not mean its public property. Go shoot a VO of Area 51 and see what happens.
 

tarzan

Well-known member
Since I'm not from Reno and not familiar with this case or the federal courthouse there, I'm not sure what SandRat means by "not on property" in this context. Perhaps he's referring to one of the off-limits secure area of the courthouse property that FedProp is talking about, in which case it wouldn't be "public area, pedestrian traffic." On the other hand, if the perps were being walked in an area where pedestrians normally walk through, then to Hell with what the security guard said. I do agree though that SandRat needs to have a beer and get over it.
 

Tippster

The Fly on the Wall
Originally posted by Lensmith:
...If you've been doing this job for any length of time let's be honest...there are no rules if you come back with the best video.
Sorry, John, but that's Bullsh*t. If we're at a gangbang it should be the norm that we all try to come back with good video, not a winner/loser situation. Your (surprising) attitude would ruin most events I cover here in DC, and would never fly. If one person steps on everyone else's video to get a better shot, that guy will be ruing that decision at the next event, where all of a sudden a network soundman will keep "accidentally" bumping into him during the 20 sec. grip-and-grin.

Payback's a bitch, so why invite it by being an egotistical ass?
 

NewsMan

Well-known member
If the public had access to the area in question, I would have went for the shot as well. Other than the obvious (I am part of the public), I have been burned too many times playing the "nice guy". Everytime I do... someone "goes for the shot".
 

NewsMan

Well-known member
Lets spread this out a little.

A few years back, the two local stations were setting up outside of Virginia Tech's fieldhouse for a live shot on an impending news conference. The live shot was NOT the newser. Being the kind fellow I am, I set up back a bit from the fieldhouse, knowing that if I wanted to, I could set up the better shot that would not allow my competition a good shot at all. My reasoning was to work with this guy so we both got a nice shoot without interfering with one another. Without a word said, this other photog sets up right in the middle of the background that my shot is framed for. He did exactly to me, what I was working hard not to do to him. My point? Nice guys finish last.
 

Lensmith

Member
Originally posted by Tippster:
Payback's a bitch, so why invite it by being an egotistical ass?
Please don't misunderstand my position.

I'm all for cooperation and work to achieve some semblance of that at such events. I also deal with the reality of knowing who is and isn't in charge of policing photog behavior.

The crux of my point could be answered by the original poster. What happened to the photogs who "broke the rules"?

I'm betting nothing...which has pissed me off before too ;o)

What's the point of "rules" if there's no enforcement? Idle threats of "I'll remember and keep him from working" don't cut it. Not to mention doing nothing to help you overcome the situation in the future.

I'll bet one of the reasons the "rules" are enforced and followed where you work Tippster, is because there are police and secret service around to make sure they are followed, keeping photogs and others in their designated area. It really has little to do with photog cooperation alone.

There's a way to be aggressive yet not upset others trying to do the same job. That skill comes with experience. What also comes from experience is knowing there will always be someone complaining that you got in their way. I'm not a pushy jerk when I work. I'm not arrogant thinking only my shot counts. I work and play well with others ;o)

However...I don't waste my breath complaining because I got out positioned or out hussled. I learn from it and do better the next time.

I guess that's the point I was trying to pass along to others. I was by no means saying we should all play "every photog for themselves and to heck with everyone else".

Know who's really in charge and what the real "rules" are. Be ready for someone to break those rules and have a plan to not get screwed over yourself.

Complaining after the fact because people didn't cooperate and follow "rules" are hollow excuses for not getting the job done. Blame others for the situation getting out of control but don't ever come back without the video unless it truly breaks the law...and even then I can think of a rare circumstance where breaking the law would be acceptable...but those situations are VERY rare.

I've said this before. Several times I've seen photogs from the states come down to my part of the world for some kind of gang bang news coverage. They seem to expect rules and then are surprised when their rules aren't recognized by others doing the same job. Whose fault is that?

Several of those photogs, after having their station spend a lot of money to put them in place to cover something, came back with nothing except the backs of heads and sore ribs.

I don't like it but in some situations that's part of the job.

Again, I'm not promoting we all go crazy and become idiots but...I'm not going to join a chorus of people claiming there are rules we are supposed to follow when my own years of experience have proven to me those rules are not universally accepted or enforced.

I know this is getting long but let me pass along a story from my Miami years. Big plane crash in South America of a flight whose destination was Miami. Camera crews out the wazoo are at Miami International getting shots of grieving relatives arriving and rare moments of airline officials giving sporadic information. There was no press area. It was a mess but I was sent to do my job. A rather well known Latin person was on the flight and their family members arrived, quckly becoming surrounded by out of control camera crews and still photogs. The family was quickly whisked through the security barriers by police. The family and security cross into the area where only ticketed passengers are allowed.

Most of us are smart enough not to cross with them but two or three latin network crews crash the metal detectors, literally push guards out of the way and continue to tape the grieving family members. A clear violation of all kinds of federal laws, not to mention decent human conduct.

I along with others waited smiling, thinking those photogs, while getting the video, would soon be walking back by us in handcuffs. It never happened. They were escorted back to the public area. Given a short speach about "don't do that again" and then left to join the rest of us. Several of us heatedly complained to the police as well as the offending photogs to no avail. The cops, admitted laws were broken but refused to arrest the offending crews saying it wasn't worth the effort since they had bigger crowd control issues to deal with. Post 9/11 this might have turned out differently. On that day it was their video that was aired on a couple of the American networks not mine.

Did I feel bad that they got what many considered the money shots while the rest of us followed the rules? A little but I also know I pride myself, bottom line, following the law and this was one of those times. In this case I "lost" but could defend my actions to my own boss. That doesn't mean the next time I'll be crashing the gates like those few others, however I also don't waste my breath complaining too long. I apply what I learned to future news shoots and accept the results of the present. It's over. Tomorrow is another day.

Sometimes we win being nice and following the rules. Once in a while we lose even though we were nice and did what we were told. Each of us has to follow our own code of ethics while still getting getting the shot and justifying your paycheck (and job future).

There is always someone around trying to be "rule maker". Some have the authority while others do not.

Let's also admit there are times when the shear number of photogs covering an event make it impossible for everyone to get the shot they need no matter how much cooperation and rule enforcement is present.

Plan, plan, plan and then live and learn from the results. As stated in my original post I admit I was stirring the pot with my comments but I was also trying to inject some reality into the thought process of a few ;o)
 
T

<The Enforcer>

Guest
Sound to me like you guys need Terry T to get in there and "take care" of that situation. ;)
 
N

<nuz2me>

Guest
I had a similar situation many years ago. We had to camp out at a federal courthouse for two weeks straight. After the first day of getting in close to get the people walking in & out (and thus getting in each other's way) we all decided to form a line along the sidewalk. Working off the tripod, we were all able to get nice long running shots of all the players involved.
 
F

<FED COURT>

Guest
to all that think that they can do anything
they want near fed court:

good luck
cause your ass is gonna get pinched one day
and it may be they day you need to keep working
and not sit in a cnference room till the actions over
many of the federal couts have areas near the
front door that we (media) are not encouraged
to occupy
if you want to set down your camera near the door
and camp out ---- you will be moved
since 9-11 they are in no mood to put up with our
tv bs and i don't know that i blame them
so go ahead
pull your livetruck right up on the sidewalk
infront of our local federal courthouse
run around near their secure areas
and maybe one of your polite competitors will
be nice enough to give you a dub of your arrest
 
P

<PystFotog>

Guest
I worked in South Florida during the Voting/Election FIASCO Bush v Gore and it was eat or be eaten. If you have 10 guys running ahead of you to get the shot at all costs, you better run too or your *ss will be in the grinder with your ND when you have to explain WHY you didn't get the shot.
 

SandRat

Well-known member
Just to clear things up. It was not about Binion. I don't need to specify what it was for.

The case was, we were all told a permit was needed to shoot on federal courthouse property. Instead of arguing we all cooperated (at first) to spare an unneeded argument with a federal rent-a-cop. We were even joking about having one tripod leg over the property line.

We were set up like a firing line, on our sticks, ready for the shot. When the time arrived, one guy jumped the gun and another followed suit. It wasn't the key, story-breaking, money shot. It was just one of the many shots the story needed.

I have to admit, we did not sit around and discuss as an open committee and vote on how things should go. But we all cooperated at first, we were lined up to go, and believe me, the trigger happy fellows didn't get some exclusive. They were not shooting "perp-walk" b-roll, they were just shooting an interview which they could have gotten later. They were in such a rush they couldn't wait for the subjects to come down the steps to give an interview.

The ins and outs of the story are really not that important. This is just one example of rudeness and selfishness that seems to be growing in our biz. I could also mention the guy who refused to take his mic flag off (I remove it for him anyway). Or the livetruck that parked about ten feet behind our liveshot, when there were a plethora of other parking spots. Or the guy who hangs a lav on the front of a guys shirt and leaves the cable running down the front. Or the guy from ESPN who pulls your gaffers tape off the podium, which everyone had marked an hour before when he happened in two minutes before the presser.

I can keep going and going.

Most photogs are great guys. The best people at my station are the photogs. They smile the most, they work the hardest, and they get along with everybody. It's the one or two in every shop who can kill the story by becoming part of the moment and not trying to capture the moment.
 
F

<FedProp>

Guest
Originally posted by <FED COURT>:
to all that think that they can do anything
they want near fed court:

good luck
cause your ass is gonna get pinched one day
and it may be they day you need to keep working
and not sit in a cnference room till the actions over
many of the federal couts have areas near the
front door that we (media) are not encouraged
to occupy
if you want to set down your camera near the door
and camp out ---- you will be moved
since 9-11 they are in no mood to put up with our
tv bs and i don't know that i blame them
so go ahead
pull your livetruck right up on the sidewalk
infront of our local federal courthouse
run around near their secure areas
and maybe one of your polite competitors will
be nice enough to give you a dub of your arrest
This is the stupidest post to go down here... Read the first post, they were walking out of court going to their cars. If they can walk there, and members of the public can walk there, guess what...
 
T

<try me>

Guest
Originally posted by SandRat:
I could also mention the guy who refused to take his mic flag off (I remove it for him anyway).
If you'd tried that with me you'd be at the dentists this morning. My news director wants the mic flags. Guess what big boy! My mic flag is going to be up there. You touch my gear and that's the last thing you'll remember before your butt hits the ground.
 
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