Home editing

Canonman

Well-known member
As far as Macs go, I think they're way overpriced for what you get out of them. It costs much more to upgrade internal components, and since they all have Intel chips these days, all you're paying for are the bragging rights to say "Please pay attention to me because I spent a crapload of money on this Mac! Isn't it so cute?"
Do some research will you? When I walk into Staples or Best Buy and buy increasingly larger hard drives to put in my Mac, they don't question me at the checkout stand about hardware platform to determine my price for the drive. Get real.

I too was an Apple hater until 2005 when I got my first Mac (and still my only one). It still boots in about 30 seconds after 2 major OS upgrades and all the software I have on it. Can't say the same for my XP laptop bought around the same time frame. It used to boot up in 30 seconds or so but now, more like 3 or 4 minutes. The registry is the curse of Windows. And true to form, after a year of having the Vista machine, it's taking longer and longer to boot.

The price/performance ratio is a lot more even than it appears just by looking at the sticker on the box.

I have all three major OS systems at hand. The Vista machine has Premiere Pro 2 and it would be perfect for the original poster's needs.

Look, I really don't care what anyone uses, but I do get tired of ill-informed people trotting out the same old bulls***t that applied to Apple computers in the old days. Once I found out that OSX was just window dressing for BSD Unix, that was all I needed to hear.

cm
 

patssle

Well-known member
I do get tired of ill-informed people trotting out the same old bulls***t that applied to Apple computers in the old days
That's funny, because people still do the same thing when it comes to graphics/video editing. They think Macs are superior becuase back in the old days, they were. They think a Mac can solve all their video editing needs and make a great video.

The street goes both ways. ;) Both are pretty much equal now, its the skills of the user that makes a great video, not what platform they use.
 

Canonman

Well-known member
its the skills of the user that makes a great video, not what platform they use.
Always has been, always will be. While not politically correct, the phrase I often remember is, "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian."

The editing software and skills of the user weren't even a consideration in the post of mine you quoted. I was trying to correct the misconception about parts prices, limited software availability, etc.

At the end of the day however, the creative process is a much more productive one when the tool doesn't get in the way of the process. And in that department, I give the Mac OSX environment the nod. Simply put, it's more stable.

cm
 

SimonW

Well-known member
Shame the last thread about this was deleted.

What I said in one sentence. Find me a PC with the *same* spec processors and same spec everything as a Mac Pro tower for less. You won't find one.

For some reason people keep comparing single dual-core PC towers with 8 core Xeons in price. Dunno what planet they are on, but there's a world of difference. Same for the notebooks. A Dell $299 special does not compare in spec to a top of the line Macbook Pro.

Same spec = same price, PC or Mac. deal with it people. The "Mac is more expensive' riff was proved totally false when the Dinosaurs died out.
 

patssle

Well-known member
MAC: About $4000 from Apple Store

Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
4GB (4x1GB)
500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB

PC: Around $2500 from Newegg
Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon ($1400)
Dual Zeon Motherboard (about $300)
4GB (2x2GB) ($200)
500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s ($100)
1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s ($200)
NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB ($150)
Odds and ends, case/powersupply ($200)


So about those dinosaurs...did you know global warming was worse back then? There were no polar ice-caps and "Carbon dioxide levels were up to 12 times higher than today's levels" (Wiki).
 

photog1199

Well-known member
I took a little drive down to the Apple store in Atlanta and messed around with Final Cut Express and loved it. I will be getting a Mac Book Pro in about 2 months(one the wife lets me open up the wallet)
 

Alaska cameradude

Well-known member
MAC: About $4000 from Apple Store

Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
4GB (4x1GB)
500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB

PC: Around $2500 from Newegg
Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon ($1400)
Dual Zeon Motherboard (about $300)
4GB (2x2GB) ($200)
500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s ($100)
1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s ($200)
NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB ($150)
Odds and ends, case/powersupply ($200)


So about those dinosaurs...did you know global warming was worse back then? There were no polar ice-caps and "Carbon dioxide levels were up to 12 times higher than today's levels" (Wiki).
Well, since you seem to be talking about building your own PC......you COULD also buy the 2.8 'OCTO' core Mac for $2300 and then buy your own RAM and bigger harddrive from OWC and come out almost the exact same as the PC.....I mean if you are going to hunt for the best prices on the PC stuff, you should probably be fair and do the same for the Mac, instead of buying from the Apple store which most everyone knows rips you off big time on things like RAM and extra harddrives and such.
 

patssle

Well-known member
Well, since you seem to be talking about building your own PC......you COULD also buy the 2.8 'OCTO' core Mac for $2300 and then buy your own RAM and bigger harddrive from OWC and come out almost the exact same as the PC.....I mean if you are going to hunt for the best prices on the PC stuff, you should probably be fair and do the same for the Mac, instead of buying from the Apple store which most everyone knows rips you off big time on things like RAM and extra harddrives and such.
That's true, you could just build the Mac too. But thats essentially just building a PC, then putting the Mac OS onto it.

But will you have problems by building it yourself? I tried to put OSX x86 on 2 Intel based computers many months ago...nothing but problems due to compatiblity issues with my motherboards. That then defeats the purpose of a Mac, to use the OS with a set of standardized hardware and software that is gurantee to work well with it. That's what Apple does well - they don't have to cater to tons of different manfactures to make each component work with their OS.

There's an entire community dedicated to the process of making Mac OSX work on the x86 based architecture. http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
 

Chugach3DGuy

Well-known member
Do some research will you? When I walk into Staples or Best Buy and buy increasingly larger hard drives to put in my Mac, they don't question me at the checkout stand about hardware platform to determine my price for the drive. Get real.
Research? Certainly!

www.bestbuy.com
www.gateway.com
www.dell.com
www.apple.com
www.newegg.com
www.compusa.com
www.amazon.com
www.tigerdirect.com
www.microcenter.com
www.bhphotovideo.com

There's more places I visit to research price levels, but that should give you a good start.

I can't vouch for Staples, but I can completely understand why the blue-shirt wearing folks at Best Buy don't question you. Unfortunately, it's not because of your level of knowledge regarding computers and hardware. Rather, it's their complete LACK of knowledge of anything other than what happened last night on "The Real World" or how Madden 2008 is awesome, but Madden 2009 will be so much better. In my experiences in Best Buy stores in the Midwest and the Pacific Northwest, the kids that work in the computer section of the store are fairly decent at pointing out general areas in which to find what you are looking for. After that, you're on your own. Even then, you need to speak in as few syllables as possible, using only the simplest of terms. After all, some of them very recently learned what primary colors are, and that's a lot of information to retain. Please go easy on them. Incidentally, if you want to have some fun, ask someone at a Best Buy where you can buy an external 1 yottabyte hard drive. I once had this poor kid searching for 15 minutes before I told him to forget it.

As far as hardware selection and availability, it's gotten a lot better, but it still has a ways to go. Of course, hard drives are more or less universal. I was referring more towards things like RAM, various video cards, sound cards, and other internal components that aren't as readily available as their PC counterparts.


I too was an Apple hater until 2005 when I got my first Mac (and still my only one). It still boots in about 30 seconds after 2 major OS upgrades and all the software I have on it. Can't say the same for my XP laptop bought around the same time frame. It used to boot up in 30 seconds or so but now, more like 3 or 4 minutes. The registry is the curse of Windows. And true to form, after a year of having the Vista machine, it's taking longer and longer to boot.
Are you maintaining your Vista and your XP machine properly? Do you surf the net and use your Vista machine for anything other than video editing? Maybe it counts as a point towards Macs, but running any Windows machine requires some periodic maintenance that's a little bit more in depth than emptying the Recycle Bin. Plus, do you have lots of programs set to start when your machine boots up? All those little virus scanners, Sync Center, App Scheduler, instant weather, Quicktime plug-ins, etc. that start with Windows all take their share of the resources. I'm sure that if you had all those same programs running on a similarly equipped Mac, you would notice an increase in boot time.

The price/performance ratio is a lot more even than it appears just by looking at the sticker on the box.
This is much truer now because Macs are for all intents and purposes, PCs in a "cutesy" enclosure.

Look, I really don't care what anyone uses, but I do get tired of ill-informed people trotting out the same old bulls***t that applied to Apple computers in the old days.
Frankly, it really doesn't matter to me what people use either. I've grown to become a halfway decent editor with FCP over the past several months, and I do consider it valuable experience because I never know when I might need to use it to get a gig for some director or producer who worships the almighty Mac. The main point I'm getting at here was already put very nicely by patssle. You don't like people coming here and spouting off disinformation, and I don't like people coming in and idolizing a machine and giving the notion that one doesn't need to have much - or any skills, talent, or knowledge to do what we do because the machine can do it for us. And that's my personal impression of Apple's marketing strategy and their software. I totally agree with your saying of it being the indian- not the arrow. However, I've noticed an increasing number of folks out there who don't know what they're doing, but yet they're completely reliant and dependent on a machine that they think can do it all for them.
 

AlexLucas

Well-known member
Chugach3dguy-

Blah blah blah. Windows is great. The vendetta still stands.

The Apple people are coming for you. The gauntlet has been thrown. The "haiku of death" has been delivered:

Plotting your iDoom
Toyota Yaris of Death
Waits outside your house


Expect your end to be clean, and have a brushed metallic finish.
 

MtnShooter

Well-known member
Buy where you can buy an external 1 yottabyte hard drive. I once had this poor kid searching for 15 minutes before I told him to forget it.
It's one thing to do something mean like that. It's another to brag about it.

So the kid wasn't the brightest bulb on the tree. Did it make you feel superior to humiliate him?

Way to go. What a man.
 

Alaska cameradude

Well-known member
Frankly, it really doesn't matter to me what people use either. I've grown to become a halfway decent editor with FCP over the past several months, and I do consider it valuable experience because I never know when I might need to use it to get a gig for some director or producer who worships the almighty Mac. The main point I'm getting at here was already put very nicely by patssle. You don't like people coming here and spouting off disinformation, and I don't like people coming in and idolizing a machine and giving the notion that one doesn't need to have much - or any skills, talent, or knowledge to do what we do because the machine can do it for us. And that's my personal impression of Apple's marketing strategy and their software. I totally agree with your saying of it being the indian- not the arrow. However, I've noticed an increasing number of folks out there who don't know what they're doing, but yet they're completely reliant and dependent on a machine that they think can do it all for them.
Man, that's funny, I have a Mac so I'm automatically a video editor? Hmmm....people are funny. However, I can say I've seen it a TON from the other side of things. Some of my main competitors in the past have been guys who went to school and got a Computer Science degree and thought that qualified them to start a video production company. I did the whole TV production thing in college, worked for commercial TV stations and PBS and when I started my own business, I bought Macs for my business, because I didn't know about drivers, and maintaining operating systems, and installing the right virus protection programs. I'm not a computer science guy, just a lowly video guy trying to start a business, and I don't know a ton about computers. My competitors were telling people that they shouldn't come to me because I didn't know how to flash the firmware on my video editing computer and basically trying to show off their knowledge of their CS degrees by showing off their 'home built hot rod' PC. And of course I just had a lowly Mac without a turbo scoop and 10 water cooled fans, so I MUST not know what I was doing! And here I was, and I couldn't care less about how many FPS you get in World of Warcraft or your other nerdy computer games. It was funny because they knew nothing about video, but lots about computer gaming and just thought it would magically translate over. To this day I can't stand the 'superior do it yourself hot rodder' type PC guys because of all these nerds I've dealt with. Now that's just my experience, but it definitely goes both ways.
 

Chugach3DGuy

Well-known member
Chugach3dguy-

Blah blah blah. Windows is great. The vendetta still stands.

The Apple people are coming for you. The gauntlet has been thrown. The "haiku of death" has been delivered:

Plotting your iDoom
Toyota Yaris of Death
Waits outside your house


Expect your end to be clean, and have a brushed metallic finish.
So... these Apple people coming for me. Do they really have the upper body strength to be throwing gauntlets? It's probably not good for them to be out in the sun for very long either. We're in the middle of summer here in Alaska, so the days are VERY long. We don't want their pale skin to burn. I mean, I'm sure people such as yourself with real jobs won't take time out of your busy schedules for little ol' me.

Then again, I'm not too worried about the folks hanging out in the local Starbucks. I don't have a ready-made template with directions to where I live, and there aren't any Wifi-spots within a 7 mile radius of my place. Their lower lips will be thrust out in an ultra Mega Pout because they won't be able to "drag and drop" my demise in the way they imagined! Plus, I'd be more impressed than anything if a Toyota Yaris actually made it all the way up the driveway without scooping out its undercarriage. If someone DID make it all the way up, I'd probably give them a cookie. At that point, they've earned it.

Mtnshooter said:
It's one thing to do something mean like that. It's another to brag about it.

So the kid wasn't the brightest bulb on the tree. Did it make you feel superior to humiliate him?

Way to go. What a man.
I didn't realize my precious, precious manhood was at stake. I hate it when it sneaks up on me like that! I mean, one minute I'm playing a practical joke that didn't hurt or humiliate anyone, and all of a sudden, I'm looking down to see that I'm as anatomically correct as a Ken doll! Quick- I better go punch something and inflate my self worth! Dr. Phil said it would be healthy for me!

All humor aside, I don't think Little Johnny was humiliated. If anything, I hope he went home and googled "yottabyte", and had a similar reaction to mine when I found out what it was. Because I think it would be super awesome to have a drive that large! Besides, I think there are much worse things I can be doing other than sending some minimum wage kid on a wild goose chase for 15 minutes.

Oh yeah- I wasn't bragging either. If it was bragging, I would've had a much longer and more elaborate story!
 

patssle

Well-known member
To this day I can't stand the 'superior do it yourself hot rodder' type PC guys because of all these nerds I've dealt with.
Well, I'm a 'nerd' that builds my own computers (but I don't play Wow :D)...but as I've said before, its not what you use, its how you use it. Creativity and skills come from one's self, not the computer. You can do the same thing on a Mac or on a PC.

I have a Mac so I'm automatically a video editor?
No...but there is still a perception out there that you need a Mac for video editing or graphic design. There are people that would hire a Mac editor over a PC editor (and visa versa, but not nearly as many).
 

MtnShooter

Well-known member
some minimum wage kid on a wild goose chase for 15 minutes.

Oh yeah- I wasn't bragging either. If it was bragging, I would've had a much longer and more elaborate story!
Yeah. Who cares about some low-life, minimum wage kid, anyway? Toyota-driving, latte-sipping, Mac-dirtbags, scum of the earth they are. They deserve all the ridicule and wild goose poop they get.

Well, except my kid... who is about that age and has colon cancer. He was working in one of those big box stores while he looked for a better job... so he could support my grandson, who was born while he was in Afghanistan fighting for your freedom to stick things in your ear.

Back to the issue at hand: I'm a PC user. I admire the Macs and would dearly love to never have to worry about drivers again. But it was a new camera or a new computer, and I chose the camera. When things improve, I'm getting an Intel-Mac so I can have the best of both worlds.
 

Alaska cameradude

Well-known member
Well, I'm a 'nerd' that builds my own computers (but I don't play Wow :D)...but as I've said before, its not what you use, its how you use it. Creativity and skills come from one's self, not the computer. You can do the same thing on a Mac or on a PC.



No...but there is still a perception out there that you need a Mac for video editing or graphic design. There are people that would hire a Mac editor over a PC editor (and visa versa, but not nearly as many).
Ya but see you are not a 'superior' nerd so you're still totally cool with me :)
It's only the ones who think they are better than me somehow because they can build a 'hotrod PC' that get under my skin. Like you said, how many people, clients or otherwise ask you if you did that on a Mac or PC? None. It doesn't matter, all those NLE's do the same things. You use what you are comfortable with and what you are most efficient with because time is money too.

And maybe there is a perception among some that you need a Mac for video editing or graphic design. If so, I think that comes from the dark ages of the past. PC's, Macs, whatever. Now if we start talking Sony vs. Panasonic it'll be a throw down!
:)
 

SimonW

Well-known member
MAC: About $4000 from Apple Store

Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
4GB (4x1GB)
500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB

PC: Around $2500 from Newegg
As has been pointed out, nobody buys their RAM and hard drives from the Apple store. I got my Mac Pro without any RAM and only one hard drive with the OS on it. I got my RAM from Crucial and my HDD's from somewhere else.

Something else you haven't factored in is pre-built cost. The PC you specced was home built from parts sourced from the best prices you can find. Now find me a PC of the same spec pre built ready to buy for the same price! After all if we are going to compare fruits we should be comparing apples to apples if you pardon the pun.

The quality of your parts may also not be comparable. For example your case might be a bog standard beige job instead of the convenient Mac Pro aluminium tower. That isn't just for show either. If you've ever seen inside a Mac Pro you'll know that there are no cables anywhere. All parts from graphics cards to memory, to CD/DVD drives are installed buy putting them into a tray that simply slides back in. There is no clutter from cables and crap inside these things. So you can bump up your accessories costs to include a PC case with similar capabilities.

What type of power supply do you have? In fact what is the motherboard you specced? Are all these things directly comparable? Possibly not since whenever people have tried to make their own PC to run OS X they have found that there has been no saving in costs for the same spec.

Which is why I do not know why some people have such animosity against the Macs, especially since you can run Windows natively on them as well.
 

Canonman

Well-known member
So... these Apple people coming for me. Do they really have the upper body strength to be throwing gauntlets? It's probably not good for them to be out in the sun for very long either. We're in the middle of summer here in Alaska, so the days are VERY long. We don't want their pale skin to burn. I mean, I'm sure people such as yourself with real jobs won't take time out of your busy schedules for little ol' me.

Then again, I'm not too worried about the folks hanging out in the local Starbucks. I don't have a ready-made template with directions to where I live, and there aren't any Wifi-spots within a 7 mile radius of my place. Their lower lips will be thrust out in an ultra Mega Pout because they won't be able to "drag and drop" my demise in the way they imagined! Plus, I'd be more impressed than anything if a Toyota Yaris actually made it all the way up the driveway without scooping out its undercarriage. If someone DID make it all the way up, I'd probably give them a cookie. At that point, they've earned it.
Hehe, very funny. I guess I don't fit the stereotype. Believe me, I have plenty of upper body strength. And I drive a Chevy 3500 4x4 crew cab dually. I can make it up your driveway with no problem. Hope the cookies are tasty! I also make it out into the Texas summer sun enough to be quite tanned at the moment. I don't patronize Starbucks because their coffee sucks. I make my own in the trusty Bunn Pour-O-Matic that has served me since the early 1990's.

And thanks so much for the computer education. Might as well tell you that my first computer was a Radio Shack TRS-80. I was building clones in the mid 80's before Michael Dell got the same bright idea.

I don't live in an Apple religious compound. I simply bought one and have found it to be the most enjoyable computing experience I've ever had. And that's before FCP ever gets fired up.

A computer won't 'make' you anything. It's simply a tool that should assist you in what you're trying to do. All the accounting software in the world will not make you an accountant. And an NLE won't make you a video editor. A camera won't make you a photographer. The list goes on.

cm
 

patssle

Well-known member
As has been pointed out, nobody buys their RAM and hard drives from the Apple store.
Ok, so going with the same specs but with the minimum amount of RAM and HD allowed by Apple Store, it still comes out to $2,800. Add 2 GB more of ram ($100), and another hardrive (1TB $200), and you're still $3,100 vs $2,500. Also to note, on all my PC components, I mostly rounded up, so its probably a good $100 - $200 cheaper than I stated.

The quality of your parts may also not be comparable
Negative. I've been building computers for over 10 years. I research anything I buy for quality and performance - and have had very few issues ever.

The PC you specced was home built from parts sourced from the best prices you can find
Well thats one of the advantages of going PC over a Mac, you can build it yourself. As I previously mentioned, building a Mac is not the ideal situation. So for a few hours of your time...and if you are computer savvy, you can build yourself a cheaper PC and save a ton of money. Or go with a pre-built Mac, but you'll pay for it. Whatever works for you.

Or you could go with a pre-built PC, but who knows what quality components they use them. Not sure what the costs are, did a brief look up on Dell and HP but didn't see dual processor quad Zeons. As I mentioned before, that is the benefit of buying a Mac, you know their hardware WILL work with their software without issues.

I'm not arguing that PCs are better, just stating the facts of the costs.
 

Chugach3DGuy

Well-known member
AlaskaCameraDude said:
However, I can say I've seen it a TON from the other side of things. Some of my main competitors in the past have been guys who went to school and got a Computer Science degree and thought that qualified them to start a video production company.
Exactly! Just because you have a fancy computator or built it yourself doesn't give you the knowledge and skills of design and composition that should be in place before you even lay a hand on a computer.


My competitors were telling people that they shouldn't come to me because I didn't know how to flash the firmware on my video editing computer and basically trying to show off their knowledge of their CS degrees by showing off their 'home built hot rod' PC.
And I hope guys like that have successfully run their businesses into the ground.

And of course I just had a lowly Mac without a turbo scoop and 10 water cooled fans...
Please post pictures of this. I wish to see it!


It was funny because they knew nothing about video, but lots about computer gaming and just thought it would magically translate over. To this day I can't stand the 'superior do it yourself hot rodder' type PC guys because of all these nerds I've dealt with. Now that's just my experience, but it definitely goes both ways.
It does go both ways, and I'm not trying to attack the folks that know what they're doing. I'm poking at those people who think that just having such a machine is similar to a silver bullet that can somehow magically elevate them to greatness without having to apply any effort elsewhere.

Canonman said:
Hehe, very funny. I guess I don't fit the stereotype. Believe me, I have plenty of upper body strength. And I drive a Chevy 3500 4x4 crew cab dually. I can make it up your driveway with no problem. Hope the cookies are tasty! I also make it out into the Texas summer sun enough to be quite tanned at the moment. I don't patronize Starbucks because their coffee sucks. I make my own in the trusty Bunn Pour-O-Matic that has served me since the early 1990's.
I can do chocolate chip if that's ok, but I only have a small analog oven. The other option is to simply eat cookie dough directly from those handy Toll House packages. I was never a fan of Starbucks myself, but a close relative recently became a shift manager at one, and she feels I need to broaden my horizons. I trust her judgment, so I'll occasionally be seen ducking in and out of one. It still doesn't replace my $35 Krups from Costco that faithfully makes a fresh pot every day!

My dad handed down his TRS-80 (with a whole 4kb of RAM!)to me back when I was a kid. I learned how to program in Basic, but the tediousness along with using the little cassette player to load and save programs wore off after I inherited an old 386SX with 4 MB of RAM and a 100MB hard drive. It was all downhill from there, and all that's left is this smart-mouthed guy running his mouth off on interweb forums.
 
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