Buying an HD Camera

[Hiding Under Here]

Okay. This debate has waged for years here. Let me restoke it. Bear in mind that I realize there are individual mindsets and camps out there. I also realize that what might be an acceptable HD format today probably won't be in vogue two years from now. But that's not a huge concern of mine.

I see a few Panasonic HDX900 cameras around selling on the used market. I think you can buy one with low hours for $18K to $19K. That's a fair amount of money. But it isn't life threatening. I am getting more and more calls for this camera. It's not a deluge. But it's more than I am getting for, say, the SDX900, which I own.

I am thinking of unloading my SDX900 -- or maybe not -- and buying the HDX900 just to see where this stream of work leads. I'd love to hear the collective wisdom of the board. I won't debate why I am thinking of this. But I'll chime in and re-hash my rationalizations if challenged. I'm just wondering if anyone else is considering something similar.

Thanks

 

[tubecamera-or-bust]

I always look at it this way. How many shoots do I need to do to pay off the camera (and the loan, insurance, property tax, etc.) if I buy it vs what I will give up each time I need to rent one... and still have the cash on hand should I need to go another way.

The HDX-900 rents for around $625 less your discount of, what, 20%? That makes it $500/day. You'll need to use it 38 days to pay it off not including the HD lens, loan or if not a load the loss of the cash being in a good mutual fund. At even at a conservative 8% you will lose $1500 a year on the money. That's another 3 rentals you'll need.

You can probably get, what $1900/day shooting with it less $500 is $1400 for you and your sound tech. Not bad and no camera to deal with.

Remember, it's only native 720P. At 1080I is looks like crap IMHO.

Hey, I'm in the same boat as you. What do I buy. Nothing, at the moment, because I cannot justify any of these cameras.

Of course, you could always throw caution to the wind and just buy one and cross your fingers the whole world goes 720P next year.

 

[Run&Gun]

I guess it depends on your client base and /or the clients you're going after. My main clients, ESPN, asked for the VariCam and that's what I got. Like you said, we've had several discussions on the VariCam vs. HDX-900 vs. F-900, etc. and cases have been made for all. In my situation, my client specifically asked for a specific camera and that's what I got, others may be or are more flexible, but I think the VariCam is much more marketable than the HDX-900. ESPN has already said that they WILL NOT accept the HDX-900 for at least one of their shows(E:60), if they're a client, it's something to think about.

I think that in the next few years 1080P will be at the top of the pile. No one is broadcasting in it right now, but as technology progresses, I see it being a very real possibility. There are countless displays now that are native 1080P and consumer Blu-ray and HDDVD are largely 1080P, now. I've also been told by a reliable rep that the next VariCam will do 1080P up to 60 frames and 720P up 120 frames.

 

[Nino]

In the last 3 months my work shifted to about 2/3rd HD, mostly Varicam with the new ESPN E:60 show topping the list. Also many of the other features, including college football insists on Varicam, probably because most producers are not familiar yet with with the HDX900 or are afraid to make the decision. The budget is good for the Varicams so why take chances. The problem is that I don't own a Varicam yet and although I'm getting some very good rental rates if I had bought one 3 months ago I would have paid for half of the camera already, needless to say I'm now on the market for a Varicam, used of course because I'm convinced that it's productive life will be short lived. If anyone have any lead on used bodies, lenses and monitors please drop me a PM.

I would much prefer to get a HDX900, mostly because of it's firewire connection that would allow me to use the camera for transfer video into the NLE instead of having to invest in a deck, but we have to follow the money trail.

PS. Please feel free to post any suggestion on purchasing a used Varicam, such as known problems with older models.

Thanks

 

[Baltimore Shooter]

Right now, unless you have the money to burn or you have to either spend it or pay that amount in taxes, I don't see the need to buy an HD camera right now. Between the Vericam, HDX900, HDCam (3 varities), the current 1/2" XD-HD and the 2/3" XD-HD on the way, the whole HD issue is in such a state of flux. I don't think it makes sense to buy an HD camera right now. When I need one, I'll just rent one for now. When the whole HD format wars shakes out and settles down, then I'll think about it.

Warren

 

[Hiding Under Here]

Nino, you're getting close to my thinking. The forward analysis about knowing what my clients want and justifying the purchase of a camera through history and hindsight is problematic to me. The camera/format picture is changing so fast I think you need to anticipate it -- maybe even take a risk and buy on an educated hunch -- rather than doing a meticulous cost analysis. We're all going HD at some point. So why NOT buy the HD lenses? I have those already. Buy an HD monitor? Why not? You won't have to rent one now. I also did that. All that is left is the camera. Why not buy an HD camera if there's one is requested regularly by clients? You need more than one camera today. At least I think so.

I like the HDX900. It makes the most sense to me and I like how it looks. I mean I REALLY like how it looks. And how it feels. And I'm getting more and more calls for it.

 

[JCTV]

I don’t think the “went and what to buy” will end any time soon. If you have been at this for awhile, I don’t see why it’s a business wrecking decision to buy another camera. You know your Betacam has paid for, what are you doing with that extra cash? I remember buying a new Betacam every four years are so, 507, 400a, 600, it was part of the job. Now we are still making money off of 10 year old 600’s at a higher rate than when they were new.
I bought a XDHD 350 last summer with zero clients asking for it. I had a great time getting slow-mo shots of my dogs in the back yard for the first month, but, then I started getting calls for the camera and I was off and shooting. It took 11 months, but I paid off the camera and now it is a money maker. I am now saving for the next camera…whatever that will be…it’s part of the job.

 

[Nino]

Tom, I wasn’t going to make a major purchase at this stage in my career. I was really hoping to time my slowing-down to the speed of the demand of my 600; we would both slowly fade into retirement, unfortunately I’m not ready to do that yet. At the beginning of 2007 I had some of my major clients cutting back and I anticipated that my business will drop about 20%, it did for about two months and then it made a fast turnaround, I got that 20% back and much much more. Most of the increase is a not only more work but the higher rates that we are getting from HD shoots. My perfect storm, working the same volume and making more. If this pace continues, keeping into account all the expenses of owning an additional camera versus the rentals, I will have that thing paid in less than a year. But not only that, is the inconvenience and time ($$$) of picking up the camera and bringing it back, not to mention the risk of the camera not being available. So for me making the purchase is the only choice that makes financial sense. Unfortunately I did not have your foresight of pre-purchasing an HD lens and monitors, I’ll have to do that all in one shot, my only consolation is that prices are dropping and there's much more used equipment available.

 

[Skipcam]

I have an HDX900. I was concerned about buying a camera without a client base clamoring for it. But it was reasonably priced, and certainly had the featureset that most experienced cameramen would want, and had greater flexibility than most other cameras, including the Varicam. It does both 720 and 1080i. As someone pointed out, it is native 720 and uprezzes when in 1080i. I have had the camera for a short time, and used it about evenly half and half of those two choices. If a client will accept it's 1080i output (and will pay the invoice!), who cares what you think of the output quality? Lots of camera operators don't like the quality of DV. But if the client wants DV and pays the Betacam rate, DV it is! I like the X900, and it seems to be a good interim camera at a decent price. At the moment, I think it's the only one that will do both HD outputs.

 

[dayrate]

what he said ...

I fought the same internal battles as mentioned by everyone above, for all the same reasons (loved shooting 16x9, loved the pictures, hated relying on / going & getting a rental camera, etc) and had a client that wanted 24p, but really only wanted it in SD. I made the decision to purchase the HDX900 a year ago. It's been a great camera.

Like all new gear, it seems one purchase begets another. I've since added two HD monitors (8.4 & 17"), the 1400 deck (in order to downconvert to SD for a few clients, etc) another Sachtler tripod, camera case, etc . Much more than I initially thought I'd spend, but I can't say I regret it at all. Business has followed (and I haven't done much "advertising"). It's opened up another avenue of clients that I wouldn't have pursued (because I don't like renting other gear), and I've picked up some knowledge (altho' that comes slowly) about the new world of conversions, frame rates, etc. that all of us need to learn more about eventually.

I wish I was using it more often, but I'm certainly using it enough to justify the leap of faith ... and the purchase. And I still have one client that uses it in addition to my Beta cam (usually as a 3rd camera - lockdown, 24p side shot in multi-cam setups) and then I'll downconvert that tape to Beta for them. (That client seems to be headed eventually to XDHD 2/3", but who knows when / if that will happen? Even if it does, there will be a span of time before the tape-based spigot turns off, I think).

To me, it just seemed like a good idea at the time. Luckily, for me, anyway, it's been a good decision.

To each his own, I guess. Every one of us has a slightly different situation to deal with / draw from / answer to. Good luck to all!

 

[Hiding Under Here]

I rented an HDX900 from a freelancer locally. He had told me that he wasn't working much with the camera and would rent it to me. So I did the three days and I got called for two more with another client. I couldn't do those so I referred the guy who rented me his camera. Then I got called for five more days with it. Couldn't do those either so I referred the other guy. So now he's done 7 days and I have done 3. The original client called me back for a fourth day. I was busy that day, too. So I recommended my friend Ken. That's 11 days total. I have two more coming up in November.

That's the trend I'm seeing.

 

[Matt Box]

I notice a lot of guys buying the HDX, more so than I ever saw get a varicam, and they are using them. I think eventually this may lead to a greater acceptance of the camera but who knows.

BTW, Sony really needs to get off it's butt with the XD.... I wonder what Ivan would have to say about all of this.

 

[dazapper]

Not all decisions regarding camera purchases are made solely because of a client's needs. If you are hedging because of the cost of the camera versus the days rented, don't ever hesitate to ask your accountant for advise, especially at tax time. I bought my Varicam three years ago and my accountant advised depreciating as much as possible the first tax cycle, saving me over $24K. Take this from the overall cost of the camera and goodies and it turns out to be a good investment. A quick look at the way the dollar is getting crushed lately and it makes my purchase seem even better.
Tom, I long for the good old days when we often traded shoots and referrals. Now I just get to read of your exploits with your friends.

 

[2000lux]

I saw an XD 350 on Mandy with lens for ~$24K. I probably should have jumped on it. It was gone by the time it sunk in.

I'm out of town on a shoot until Thanksgiving, but when I get back I'm getting a D-600 Tom hooked me up with. I'm trading an XDEX for it. Hrmmn.

 

[freedom]

Funny, I still haven't had one call for XD. Am getting calls for the HDX900 now

 

[Ken]

I also have yet to have a call for XD. Of course actually writing it down here will now cause me to get scads of calls for it.

 

[2000lux]

I work with two production companies who do a fair amount of work for CNN. They've been using theirs. They've also been using them instead of DV-CAM on some shoots.

 

[BlueWing]

Bought my Sony XDCam F350 last December. This month I will pay off the camera. Has worked on commercials, corporate, documentaries and sports. Great value for a work horse of a camera.

I admit that not a lot of people have ask for it specifically, but I have managed to get a lot of producers comfortable with the workflow. We will see what next year brings with the 2/3" XDCAM HD camera.

 

[JCTV]

If you are looking to buy, Sony as a PDW-F350 b-stock on their bpcvalue site for $14Gs.

 

[Nino]

For years many of us have been complaining that our rates have been stagnant. HD is the opportunity that we were looking to make more money and to recover our investment much quicker that we did with our older gears. Forget about the 5 years amortization, we have to make a quick recovery; at the speed that technology is changing we don’t how fast our purchase will go from high tech to a door stop. Fast changing technology and the anticipated short life of our equipment also gives us a good argument with our clients about maintaining high rates.

My investment in HD will be less that my original investment on my 600 was over 10 years ago. A used Varicam, a HD lens and 2 monitors will cost me less than 50k. Even when I bought my 600, a considerably better piece of equipment that replaced my (stolen) 400, the rates basically remained the same. HD is giving me about a $1,000 per day raise. 50 of those and the camera will be paid off, and I'm still left with what I was making with the Betacam.

BTW, the average daily crew rate for Varicam is $2400 and the HDX900 $2100, so we are already seeing a fluctuation of rates based on the cost of equipment, something that wasn't there with Betacam. I know of shooters that were using the Sony industrial "U" Betacam for broadcasting and still getting the same rates as those using the 600.