VJ in DC

[cameradog]

I've posted ratings several times.

Yeah, but they're usually cherry-picked. "See? They didn't place last in the third quarter hour during the 4am show! VJ works!"

 

[Chicago Dog]

I haven't posted them when you demanded me to do so, due largely to the fact that you are an impolite malicious a$$. I'm human (despite what you say about me on this board) and don't generally respond well to screaming fits from children like yourself.

Stop insulting my intelligence. Do you honestly think anyone on this board is dumb enough to believe that?

If you'd like to talk about malicious behavior, we can most certainly revisit the time you compared me to Adolf Hitler right here on this forum. Your thoroughly disgusting ignorance caused an entire thread to undergo massive editing.

No, there's a much simpler explanation that makes complete sense:

You won't post KRON's ratings because they don't back up your claims.

Yeah, but they're usually cherry-picked. "See? They didn't place last in the third quarter hour during the 4am show! VJ works!"

Ding! Cameradog is dead-on. FOX is looking for another reason to cherry-pick numbers and opportunities to write up more excuses as to why KRON's numbers suck.

 

[cameragod]

I admit I would be happier if I could provide the original quote but many of us long timers remember it (even Michael commented on it, are you calling him a liar?) as it was such an outrageous thing to claim (possibly just bravado) as at the time they hadn’t even started properly implementing VJ. The just you wait six moths was then repeated over and over, as one of the key messages from management, it was always the next six moths even a few years later. What changed in their message was the aggressiveness of the results we would see. In other words they became more measured as the reality of the situation set in and yes we did shove their words back in their faces but it was hard to say “told you so” as we felt for the pain their staff were going through.

What is interesting trawling through the past articles is the way the VJ model changed. At the start it was very much the 100% Michael’s vision of VJ.
Latter it morphed into a VJ in the way that one VJ would be the reporter and another VJ would be the cameraman… isn’t that a two man crew? How exactly is a two man crew VJ? Don’t tell me it’s because they could be if they wanted because ‘could’ isn’t the same as ‘does.’
If all management wanted was to replace the cameras and editing with cheaper equipment and people why bother with all the VJ sh!t except as a PR stunt?
What is apparent is VJ didn’t work but rather than admit it failed they changed the definition of what a VJ was.

Astocker. In 1997 ITN paid me to train their new crop of VJ’s to shoot. What I learnt training them was not everyone has the ability to be a cameraman. Some people are just video blind and nothing will change that. The few who showed any real ability quickly moved into camera positions and only the blind remained… VJ died at ITN after an internal report showing less than 3 seconds a week of VJ shot picture was making it on air. VJ’s were just too expensive to keep.
I’ll be interested to see how your VJ’s do… not that management will ever admit it if they fail.

 

[punky cameraman]

one part of this discussion that is missing.

in a month we get a new president and a new FCC.

so how might that effect the local news landscape?

if the FCC decides it wants to put teeth back in the requirement that stations
serve their audience with locally produced content

will stations be able to run syndicated crap all day and no local programming?

will duopolys be allowed?

who knows, our new government may want something back from all these broadcast

companies for the right to use the public airwaves ..... maybe .....

you know ..... quality local production?

anyone?

i think its time for the grown-ups to require the kids to eat their veggies instead of just
eating cake.

punky

 

[verdantFOX]

Cameragod:

Respectfully, unless you can provide a quote (from anywhere and that's a pretty broad birth) backing up your claim that KRON management went on the record that they would be as wildly successful as you claim they said, I choose not to believe they ever said it.

Please understand the standards you are wishing me to accept. That is, "us longtimers remember" or some such vague notion of collective memory. CG, that is pretty thin ice you're skating on. Your a journalist, give me a quote, or stop saying it, because you have nothing to back it up. This kind of quote is just the thing everyone gets whipped up about and carries on for days. If they actually said such a thing, why is it so hard to find even one quote backing it up?

Dog: You are simply a fool. Your suggestion to me is that I should admit I'm wrong when someone makes a very specific allegation, I ask them for proof, they can provide nothing even remotely like what they claim and what they do provide to back it up is exactly the vague kind of material I predicted. And I'm wrong? Please.

Seriously folks, just read what is happening here. Is this the kind of person that speaks for you? Does anyone's sense of professionalism or even plain fairness feel violated? Are you just going to sit back and say nothing?

Any of you who have read my posts over time know that I back up what I say. I'm the only person who has ever posted numbers from San Francisco. While I try my best to explain and defend my position, to my knowledge I have never stretched the truth the way camerdog did so cavalierly today or lie the way ChicagoDog does as if it is a genetic imperative.

What cameradog is doing here stinks. He is passing along false quotes (rumors) as if they are verified facts. His only proof is that he and the old timers remember it that way. Good God, are we second graders or journalists?

Do you know why he can't find a quote to even remotely match what he claims KRON management said? Because they never said it. It's a simple as that. So let's get by it.

Do I think cameradog is doing this to be deceitful or malicious? Honestly, the answer is no. He's too decent a guy. Would Dog do it? Without a moment's hesitation. But whether meaning to or not, in a debate as important as this one, we should at least be honest to each other and fair to the people involved.

WKRN and KRON took on an extremely controversial and unpopular initiative. They have their reasons as to why they did it. It is not unreasonable to condemn their logic, question their motives, or even deride their results, but what is happening here just plain stinks. Whether you believe them or not, is up to you, but if you want to condemn them, they should be condemned on the merits of what they did, or did not do, not on some made-up accusation. There are plenty of legitimate arguments for and against, without resorting to distortions (like cameradog did) or out and out lies like Dog does regularly.

If you feel no outrage, then I have to ask you, why not?

 

[Chicago Dog]

Blah, blah, blah.

Hmm... didn't see any ratings in there, either.

Yawn. Owned. Dismissed.

 

[cameradog]

At this point I'm not even sure what this idiot is bitching about.

Five paragraphs in response to my comment on his cherry-picked numbers? Must've hit a nerve or something. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[tvguide]

Producers?

Last fall they hired me to start VJ classes for the news producers.

So, will the producers you trained be on-air reporters?

 

[Astocker]

Some people are just video blind and nothing will change that.

Of all my students, nearly 2 showed any talent for doing this VJ thing. Everyone is just trying to stay away from the flaming-hair management person.

I've seen a lot of changes from the film days until now, and a lot of crisis. But this time it's different. Large companies everywhere in this country are going under. GM may not be here by the end of 09. This is a road no one has been down before. It's f'ing scary. The only thing I could really get across to my students was "hang in there," something new will show up. And don't look for any help from the new administration via FCC or anything else. They have such a monumental task in front of them, our problems are just ground clutter on their radar.

I love metaphors as you might have guessed by now. So..... I do this car racing thing. One of the most essential talents to learn is looking as far ahead as possible, especially looking at the exit of the corner you are entering, even if you have to imagine it because you can't physically see it. The car will go where you're eyes are looking, your hands and feet will make it happen. I really think that's what folks in this profession need to do now - look as far ahead as they can. Even if that's only the next corner. There's nothing in your rear view mirror that matters this time. Stay focused on the task at hand.

And keep it out of the ditch,

t

 

[Astocker]

So, will the producers you trained be on-air reporters?

No. Except for breaking news in rare cases. They will mainly provide "elements" to stories and sometimes entire pieces that will be voiced from the bureau or the new favorite - "e-tracked" from the reporter's home/office/hotel. They will also be the "crew" for reporters in the field. (boy, do reporters love that)

One day I'll get to tell kids visiting the old folks home about how I saw the fall of network news. Oh, the humanity!

t

 

[cameragod]

Actually no I’m not a journalist. I’m a cameraman. That’s kind of my point, I work with them but I aren’t one. Sure I can do fluffy features solo but that doesn’t make me a journalist. I’m also not a librarian which is why I’m having trouble finding the quote. To be honest it hard to be motivated to find it as I know its there and I bet you know its there too and if I find it I know it will change nothing for you and you will ignore it like you ignore any other question or fact that doesn’t match your world view.

 

[Nino Giannotti]

Nino:

It's a well known fact in this industry that the number 2 station in a market is often the most profitable. Their ratings are lower, but so are their expenses. Often number one stations have much higher expenses than number 2 stations. That's why ratings are not the only measure of success. Most companies would prefer being profitable to being number one.

Does that answer your question?

I really wonder if any of these stations management has ever seen the inside of a business school. FOX, your theory is just plain ridiculous. Granted that sometime you find companies in similar competing fields with lesser sales turning a better profit, those are the exceptions not the rules. Using your “We Are Better Because We Are Number Two” theory as an excuse to justify lower rating is just plain absurd and only people with an absurd brain will buy that crap. By following your business theory then being number 3 or even 4 is much better financial position to be in. So the incentive really is NOT to be number one and if we follow your economic principles then KRON should be a goldmine. Also keep in mind that we are not even talking about "number two" all these VJ talks are about stations mostly in last place, both with rating and financially converting to VJ.

It’s amazing to think that the people that come up with these insane concepts are the same dynamic business brains that are convinced that by totally implementing the VJ concept they will reverse their misfortunes and turn their stations back to profitability? Simply amazing that so much incompetence is in the position of managing a company and other people lives.

 

[Lensmith]

This quote is another good example of the "facts" you people come up with to defend your position. I've been on this board numerous times and I have never once seen KRON management post let alone say that they would have "incontrovertible proof within six months" that what they did was a success and that everyone would adopt it.

Show me any quote from anywhere that KRON management made such statements...No one ever made such a statement. Certainly no one at KRON. So, show me the quote, article, or link. Show me.

A specific quote from KRON management? I'm not sure it exists. The search function on this board does not reach back to the time period on B-Roll Online where the VJ discussion truly begins. However, if my memory serves me correctly, the quotes were from Michael Rosenblum, not KRON management.

I think Verdant Fox knows this and has chosen to base his point on the narrowest of split hairs. It wasn't KRON management making the claims but a consultant they hired to implement the VJ transition. A consultant they used at every turn as one of the voices in their publicity running up to the change-over to help sell this idea to the public while never having to put their own words on the line. Isn't that what consultants are for anyway? An excuse for managers to use when things go wrong so they can avoid responsibility?

Another side note...this whole quibble about "five years" over "three years" is silly. Posts with Michael Rosenblum discussing the pros and cons of VJ have been going on here at B-Roll Online for at least five years.

http://www.b-roll.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13405

Earlier posts than this thread are no longer available, but as one can see, it is correct KRON has not been VJ for five years but the heated discussions about this VJ newsroom theory have been going on much longer...thus I understand why some would use the number five instead of the number three when referencing this issue.

In all fairness to Michael Rosneblum, his idea of how a VJ newsroom was to be run never happened at either KRON or WKRN. There was not accepted, routine failure rate for VJs to produce stories. There weren't the total numbers of cameras put into the field as he promoted. Much of Michael Rosenblum's VJ plan was tossed out the window he left the building...as many of us predicted. It was all about cutting costs (and employees). Never about a "better" product.

We had a handful of happy KRON and WKRN VJ's jumping on this board to tell us how happy they were and how wrong we were about what their jobs were like. Then, reality set in for them and they became silent. Their happy VJ blogs abandoned.

Verdant Fox knows the score. Young Broadcasting finances are in the toilet. Michael Rosenblum has moved on to other projects where he has learned to modify his ideas to fit more into the real world...but they still haven't achieved anywhere near the success as he predicted.

No, KRON management didn't make the claims of success. They paid someone else to make them for them. Both in public and internally during the employee VJ classes.

Where are all those happy VJs from KRON and WKRN? Why haven't they blossomed into the sure success stories we were promised? Where are...

VJinsanfrancisco http://www.b-roll.net/forum/member.php?u=7384

VJmanager http://www.b-roll.net/forum/member.php?u=6826

kronvj http://www.b-roll.net/forum/member.php?u=6864

news2vj http://news2vj.blogspot.com a very talented photog, not to mention nice guy, who says nothing about his vj work at all any more. Morphing his blog into a site for news about local folks in the military from the Nashville area. VJ, at WKRN has become nothing more than the newest word for cameraman/editor. No different than "videographer" was/is.

This list doesn't include the 5-takes participants who have visited here hoping to do so much with what they've learned, only to find a quick end to the road after their stint on the show...as well as their happy VJ blogs.

It's all part of the long running discussion about VJ newscoverage which has been going on for many years here. Longer than the B-Roll Online archives are able to handle. As far as KRON goes, whether you judge by ratings or by their corporate health, things are far from being labeled a "success".

 

[Nino Giannotti]

Originally Posted by cameragod View Post
When KRON went 100% VJ (3 years ago ) we were told on this board by KRON management and others that we would see incontrovertible proof within six months that 100% VJ was a success and the world would follow.
We and our craft was dinosaur dead.
It never happened.
So by their own criteria that must count as a fail.

This quote is another good example of the "facts" you people come up with to defend your position. I've been on this board numerous times and I have never once seen KRON management post let alone say that they would have "incontrovertible proof within six months" that what they did was a success and that everyone would adopt it.

Actually FOX these were Michael’s statements that he has been saying all along and repeatedly since the first time he came on this board, ask him. He hasn’t been saying much of that lately mostly because none of his prophecies came true and those few that he tried himself turned out to be disasters. He is basically out of the television business and peddling his notions to consumers who don’t know any better and believe in everything they’ve being told especially when you have a big name behind like the Travel Channel. Remember that he tried the same thing on his own and that failed too. Selling of manure would also be successful with that kind of unlimited free advertising that the TC does.

Even stupid and incompetent management, and there appears to be plenty of those around, will soon or later recognize failures, and as failure I don’t mean the VJ system in itself, as the OMB concepts has been around since Michael was still in grade school, I mean the video stuff that he tries to pass as newsworthy, and that’s the leading cause of failure for everyone who’s getting involved with. As I said before, no matter how cheap it is to make if nobody watch it its way too expensive.

And as far his previous statements of us being dinosaurs on our way to extinction, six years after he made those statements business each year has been better than the previous one with the current one being the best yet in spite of all the economic bad news. What all of you fail to understand is that a competent crews is not expensive, it's priceless, it's the least expensive and most important part of a production. Good producers know that all too well because they've been burned by incompetent people, and that's very expensive. If any of you were ever involved or had the knowledge of what quality production is and how to achieve it you wouldn't touch the level of VJ quality with a ten foot pole. Did any of you ever wondered why some companies are making money while others in the same business do not?

What the VJ system has become is about losers following the examples and footsteps of other losers instead of looking at leaders and try to apply what made them winner in the first place but within the available budget, it can be done and it has been done, but to do it we need competent and skilled management.

This was a letter sent by Antonitis to Michael on the two years anniversary of the conversion to VJ. One year later and the “predicted success” put the company up for sale and no buyers.

Michael:

I noted this morning that we’ve hit the two-year mark on our VJ announcement. Given the anniversary date, I thought I’d give you a sense of what is happening here.

When we embarked on this my expectation was that it would take one year to substantively integrate the system, two to fully integrate and three to have any real impact in the ratings. I’d say at this point we’re actually ahead of schedule. It took about a year from the end of your training sessions to fully integrate the system. As of now, there is no debate in the ranks about VJ. It simply “is”. It’s very interesting to go down to the newsroom and see how well the new system works and how accepted it is. If not universally popular, it is universally accepted. No one, and I mean no one, has any expectation that we would go back to doing things the way we did.

…………..
Your training program was, I believe, the key to success. The training allowed everyone to see VJ as something more than a harebrain scheme born of desperation and doomed to failure. During and after the training people thought it might actually work and it had the potential to be fun.
…………..
The surprise to many people is how well the photographers have done in the transition. As a former photographer, it was not unexpected, but it shocked a lot of traditionalists. The best new people, and I dare say stars of the future, have all come from the ranks of former photographers.

Content

We’re covering more stories than any other station, by far. That’s with fewer people, but many more cameras on the street. We have long ago transitioned from feature-driven material. We’re hard news. But there is a definite difference about how stories are told and approached, I think your training had much to do with that.

The real boon has been in breaking news stories. I’ve never understood the presumption by many in the industry that VJs somehow could not cover breaking news. Our VJs have dominated virtually every breaking news event over the last year. The latest was theLake Tahoe wildfire. We had people everywhere. The live shots we did included six or seven people at times. We did two solid days of primetime coverage. We were nimble, versatile, everywhere, extremely productive, comprehensive, dominant. KRON received dozens of emails from viewers praising our coverage. No one else came close.

We’ve had several other examples of breaking news successes. I’m sure it will be years, if ever, before the traditionalists concede that VJs can cover breaking news. It’s no longer an issue here. We not only cover breaking news, we’re exceptionally good at it.

………..

The “quality” issue has simply not come up – at least not in the audience. Absolutely no one has noticed, nor cares who shot a story. I’ve stressed the “quality of content” argument from the beginning and I believe it still applies. We’re covering more news with fewer people than the other stations.

VJ is without question the superior system. You must, however, have the right training and the right people. We had the former, we’ve acquired or are acquiring the latter.

That’s your brief update for now.

Best regards,

Mark Antonitis
President/General Manager
KRON-TV

 

[Michaelrosenblum]

Nino
I have not been saying much because I have had a few other things to deal with.
What I will say is that the growth and power of the VJ concept is self evident in all these and other bulletin boards and blogs. If it were a dead concept, it would have vanished a long time ago. Read all the posting here about how this is slowly percolating into local and network news, as well as newspapers and magazines. It may not have gone as fast as I once thought it would, nor did it take the form I first envisioned, but it is surely here, and here to stay. What incarnation that takes in the end, neither I nor anyone else can guess. But when Ivan first invited me to post here 6 years ago, it is fair to say that almost no one had thought of this. Today, that is hardly the case.

 

[Wideangle]

"But when Ivan first invited me to post here 6 years ago, it is fair to say that almost no one had thought of this. Today, that is hardly the case" michaelrosenblum

Michael, as many of us have noted on here, this has never been a "new" concept. We had
OMB's in my first market some 30 years ago. However you want to "re-package" this
as the VJ....it's been around for a very long time. Economics have made it an issue...
never efficiency or quality.

 

[verdantFOX]

Nino:

Your assertion that number 2 stations are rarely the most profitable is simply untrue. Anyone on this board who works at a TV station can simply ask around. It's not unusually at all and as I said it often happens. Did you happen t ask anyone in the business before you posted?

CG, you are being unfair. If I am wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. Show me the quote from anywhere that backs up your contention and I will immediately admit that you are right and I am wrong. You may not be able to access it, but if it's in the system, it's available to someone working at B-ROLL.NET. Ask and they may help you. I don't believe anyone at KRON ever said such a thing.

You may not be a journalist, but that doesn't mean you are devoid of a sense of fairness. Is it fair to make up a quote and ascribe it to some individual or entity without having any evidence they ever said it?

Lensmith: Weak argument and unworthy of you. Those people were hounded off this board and you know it. Many of the people who survived (yes I do mean to use that word) the transition at KRON are still there and many are former photographers. To assert that those people are no longer posting because they are unhappy is flimsy at best.

This board is largely made up people with exactly the same world view and who are cheer leading for the failure of VJ. It takes stamina to hold off the torrents of abuse one receives for disagreeing with the fold. I frankly enjoy it.

But I know there are many fair people on this board who find the current round of attacks on me for calling camergod on his misuse of a phantom quote quite revealing. If I had tried such a tactic I would have not survived, yet when one of the golden children do it, it is explained, excused, and then the attack is turned on the person who caught the error.

Again, show me one quote I have used that was not true, show me one time I posted something that was false, and I will admit I am wrong and apologize. That's what adults do. You people act like children.

Cameragod, my world view? How about yours?

 

[Nino Giannotti]

Nino
I have not been saying much because I have had a few other things to deal with.
What I will say is that the growth and power of the VJ concept is self evident in all these and other bulletin boards and blogs. If it were a dead concept, it would have vanished a long time ago. Read all the posting here about how this is slowly percolating into local and network news, as well as newspapers and magazines. It may not have gone as fast as I once thought it would, nor did it take the form I first envisioned, but it is surely here, and here to stay. What incarnation that takes in the end, neither I nor anyone else can guess. But when Ivan first invited me to post here 6 years ago, it is fair to say that almost no one had thought of this. Today, that is hardly the case.

Michael, news is something that you fell into thru the backdoor. Your original plans were for cable programming made by VJ, we all know what happened to those. News was never part of your original plans.

I never said that VJ wasn’t a good idea, what I said was that using non skilled people was a bad idea, and we were talking about your three weeks boot camps VJ miracles, something that not even you use in your own operation. I always said that OMB have been an integral part of production before you and I got into this business, and for me it’s almost 40 years, I even showed you projects that I did myself as a OMB, and I still do those. I also said that an OMB should have more skills than the average photographer and not less. There’s nothing wrong in incorporating VJ or OMB into the news or any production operation, they’ve always been there. One of the most common and wasteful managerial faults in this business is to generalize an assignment regardless of skills; I coined the phrase of the waste in sending an award winning chef to cook scramble eggs, and on the other hand sending a fast order cook to create gourmet meals, one is a waste and the other will fail. A good manager should size-up and delegate the jobs based on job importance, skills necessary and related pay-scale, turning the newsroom into a one-size-fits-all is a mistake with fatal consequences.

The problem in the future newsroom is not the VJ, that’s just one of the consequences of bad and incompetent management. The problem is that the entire news reporting principle are being reduced to something that the public do not longer care, this instead of finding ways to reach the viewers and provide something that they can really use.

Let me give you an example, just a few weeks ago you posted with pride a video on your blog about a stroke victim that became an artist, in his own mind of course.

http://rosenblumtv.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/the-new-star-ledger/

Well, one of my very first clients back in 1970 was the Easter Seal Rehabilitation Center and part of their rehab program for stroke victims was, guess what? Art training, apparently art stimulates the brain and increase its functions, something very important for the recovery process. Do you know why that video was a flap? I'm not talking about photographer skills, I'm talking about how beneficial it was to the viewers. It was a moving story but the average person does not care. Now, if the reporter would have made some research and interview some expert in the field he would have discovered that art is a widely used form of therapy. Now suddenly you transform an insignificant video into something that people can use. The public also would like to know what the probable cause of the stroke was as the man doesn’t look like the typical candidate and if it happened to him it could happen to the viewers.

This is just a typical example of what’s happening to the news business, the industry doesn’t give viewers what they need and want to see, VJs are just part of the downgrading of the news business, it goes further than that. Managers are shoving into viewer's living room what managements think they should be watching and that’s something cheap to make with no value for the viewers whatsoever. Start adding informational values and you have a winner, but that will never happen with the VJ process of delivering news. News is information and when you put quotas ahead of information you are digging a grave.

 

[Nino Giannotti]

Nino:

Your assertion that number 2 stations are rarely the most profitable is simply untrue. Anyone on this board who works at a TV station can simply ask around. It's not unusually at all and as I said it often happens. Did you happen t ask anyone in the business before you posted?

I wonder where I got that?

Nino:

It's a well known fact in this industry that the number 2 station in a market is often the most profitable. Their ratings are lower, but so are their expenses. Often number one stations have much higher expenses than number 2 stations. That's why ratings are not the only measure of success. Most companies would prefer being profitable to being number one.

My original question (that you are dancing around) was based on your previous statement that ratings are not important. I asked you if rating are not important what other criteria do advertisers use to get the most reach, keeping in mind that all the stations converting to VJ are in financial trouble, mainly because they are not getting advertisers. Also we are not talking about number 2 stations, those who make the change to VJ are mostly in last place.

 

[cameragod]

Are you calling me a liar then? I know it happened. Others can remember it was said. If a journalist had several eyewitness accounts of an event, even if they differed slightly on detail would they then say it never happened because they didn’t personally see it?
I wasted two hours last night looking. Looking for something I know is there. I don’t personally need anymore proof. Although it is annoying I can’t just find it.
It’s weird that not only I can’t find the quote but I can’t find all the comment we made about it after. Some searches didn’t even find this thread and although I thought I found it when I found a few references and to links to articles in the San Francisco Weekly that turned into a dead end as they no longer work. 3 years is a long time ago in the internet and I’m obviously asking the wrong things of my searches.
If anyone else can be bothered be my guest… but lets face it Fox, after skimming though post after post on VJ’s, being proved wrong has never changed your mind about anything.