P2 vs. SxS

[BoomDrive]

Round two! I'm posting this as a follow up to my CCD vs. CMOS thread (link here).

I haven't heard much about SxS on this board, but I've heard a bunch about XDCams. I feel safe in assuming P2 is much more of a standard than SxS when it comes to solid state. In the same respect, though, I don't want one form's popularity to overshadow my decision if the other is worthwhile! Please keep in mind that I've got limited use of funds. Though they'd be great to have, I'm really not interested in hearing about the larger Panasonic P2 cameras. I'd like to keep this discussion more contained to around the HVX-200A and EX1 level.

I like the idea of getting a solid state camera. I'd much rather have the ability to pull clips directly off the camera. Tape decks can get expensive. Pulling tape clips from the camera itself is bad for the heads, especially if you've got a lot of tape to log. And, another bonus, fewer moving parts!

I'm getting ahead of myself, though. I'm assuming P2 is a more popular format for a reason, but I'd really like to hear any input about XDCam's SxS ability as well.

 

[Land Rover]

P2 has been out a lot longer so that's why you'll hear about it more tha SxS. We have one HVX-200 here and we just sent an EX-1 back this week after a second demo. I've only used the Sony once and I didn't have any problems pulling the video off the card to edit in FCP. The video was sharp and the color tones were good. I really liked the stops on the lens for the zoom and focus, non of that infinite barrel crap like the HVX has. That's really my biggest problem with that camera. The other problem I have with the HVX is problems in low light. Even a room that is lit fine, like an office space, requires the HVX to open its iris up all the way. In other words, unless I'm shooting outdoors, the gain is usually on. I've had no problems pulling off the card in FCP or Avid with this camera. Both cameras have their advantages and disadvantages and I would try and get a hold of a demo model for a few days to see which one you like the most. If you're basing your decision on one type of card over the other, I've not really noticed any difference in performance.

Keep this in mind though. The Sony is shooting HDV and some people don't like it for various reasons including render time on certain types of projects. Also, the SxS is supposed to be the new card size for the PCMCIA slots with the P2 card being the old style. I don't know how many laptops are shipping with the new card slot yet but you can always pull right off the camera.

 

[Canonman]

Keep this in mind though. The Sony is shooting HDV and some people don't like it for various reasons including render time on certain types of projects. Also, the SxS is supposed to be the new card size for the PCMCIA slots with the P2 card being the old style. I don't know how many laptops are shipping with the new card slot yet but you can always pull right off the camera.

Sorry, that's not correct. The EX-1 shoots XDCAM HD, not HDV. There IS a difference in picture quality. The SxS uses EXPRESS CARD 34, not PCMCIA. All Macbook Pros have the Express card slot as well as some newer Windows laptops.

cm

 

[The Daywood]

P2 is the more popular format because it has been out since 2004 while SxS (Sony x SanDisk) cards were only introduced at NAB 2007.

There are pros to each, but you have to remember that in effect, you need to look at the respective cameras rather than the media they record to...P2 and SxS are just solid state memory and nothing more.

Now if you want to talk about the pros of the P2 card, then by all means. In its current form, P2 cards are larger both in size and capacity. They are also built like a tank. Jan Crittendon, the American P2 product manager, throws a card on the floor, stomps on it, kicks it into the wall, then after a quick dust off, puts it in a camera and records some more. She has told me they have been sit on, dropped in sand, gone through a washing machine and frozen in snow without a glitch. The P2 can also be plugged into any PCMCIA slot in a computer, and then accessed there.
On the con side, they are a technology which has maxed out speed wise...They are based on the older PCMCIA card, and are only capable of a 2Gb/minute transfer speed in the most ideal conditions. Soon because of the architecture inside the card, they will be maxed out for memory as well...But if you need more than a 256GB card, are you really doing your job?

The SxS takes advantage of the newer ExpressCard standard instead of PCMCIA. They are the Express34 card. This means that there will be a faster transfer speed in the future as the technology advances, but for now they are stuck at the 2Gb/minute threshold as well. Many new laptops come equipped with an ExpressCard slot, so you can plug the cards right into the computer.
Durability wise, I'm not sure about them...Where the P2 is a tank, the SxS seems more like a Scion xB, just a bit flimsy. Truth be told, because they are so new, I've only been able to get a hold of them for a day, and while they performed fine, I kept thinking that I had reservations about handing these cards to our students.


There is a bunch on both sides, but remember if you are talking P2 vs. SxS, you are only comparing media not even codecs...

 

[Douglas]

For less than $250 anyone can add an external USB SxS reader/writer to any computer. http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=1000416

Also, don't overlook the HVR-Z7U
It records HDV on tape and/or ordinary compact flash cards. 16GB cards are less than $100 and hold more than 75 minutes each. Then the cards can be read in ANY CompactFlash reader.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532558-REG/Sony_HVR_Z7U_HVR_Z7U_HDV_Camcorder.html

The Z7U is kind of like the Z1U on steriords. Better in low light, removable lens, better viewfinder, better exposure controls, etc. It's a good alternative to the EX1 or EX3 if you don't find either those cameras to your liking or budget. I've had a Z7U since February and I give it two thumbs up.

Is it better than my EX1? No, but it meets the needs better of certain situations. It's all about choice.


Doug
www.VortexMedia.com

 

[patssle]

The other problem I have with the HVX is problems in low light

HVX200-A improves upon the low light issue.

Biggest problem I see with P2 is the now obsolete PCMCIA slot. Those don't come on many, if any, new laptops anymore. Express Card does.

Please keep in mind that I've got limited use of funds.

HVX is the cheaper camera, but you need more P2 cards due to higher quality codec.

One of the most important choices you have to make is what codec do you want to work with? The 35mbit 4:2:0 XDCAM or 100mbit 4:2:2 DVCPro HD? What works for you?

 

[Douglas]

One of the most important choices you have to make is what codec do you want to work with? The 25mbit 4:2:0 XDCAM or 100mbit 4:2:2 DVCPro HD? What works for you?

The best bit rate on SxS XDCAM is actually 35, not 25. And don't let that number mislead you when comparing to Panasonics's 100. Due to better compression, Sony gets more out of 35 than Pansaonic does out of 100. I've seen them side by side.

Also contributing to the difference is that the EX1 and EX3 are full 1920x1080 raster. Pansonic is a fraction of that. It's not just compression technology, it's the whole package you have to look at.

Doug
www.VortexMedia.com

 

[patssle]

The best bit rate on SxS XDCAM is actually 35, not 25. And don't let that number mislead you when comparing to Panasonics's 100. Due to better compression, Sony gets more out of 35 than Pansaonic does out of 100. I've seen them side by side.

Doug
www.VortexMedia.com

Ooops. I meant 35. My mistake.

I've never seen any actual comparison of the two side by side with some action shots. Would be nice if somebody could do that and make a high bitrate Quicktime file for the rest of the world to compare.

 

[Land Rover]

Sorry, that's not correct. The EX-1 shoots XDCAM HD, not HDV. There IS a difference in picture quality.

Oops, don't know what I was thinkning there. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Douglas]

One more thought.

When you're evaluating cameras and formats, don't forget to look at the whole workflow. For example, if you use Final Cut Pro, I'm 99% sure that Panasonic does not offer anything like Sony's XDCAM Transfer utility. XDCAM Transfer (and Clip Browser to a lesser degree) are integral parts of the FCP workflow that save several hours of time and hassle importing, naming, and managing clips on a large project. Can you even create subclips with P2? For example, if you shoot a 15 minute interview as one long clip, can you choose to import only the 10 second sound bite in the middle that you want to pull out or do you have to import the whole 15 minute clip? With XDCAM you can load all of the clip, part(s) of the clip or whatever you want.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anything like XDCAM Transfer for P2. When evaluating cameras, you've got to look at the whole picture.

Doug
www.VortexMedia.com

 

[zac love]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anything like XDCAM Transfer for P2. When evaluating cameras, you've got to look at the whole picture.
www.VortexMedia.com

Saw a FCP demo at the Panny booth at NAB this year. P2 & FCP seem to work very nicely.

Overall I have to say w/o a doubt the EX1 or EX3 is a better camera than the HVX. All the things that people don't like about the HVX, the EX1 improved on (cost of cards, min per gig on card, low light, lens legnth).

The HVX-200a I think is a very very sad second addition of the HVX-200. After reading about the EX#, then reading about the 200a my reaction was "Panasonic didn't really even try."

The advanctage the HVX has is that it has been out longer, so more people have used it, and it is 100MB 4:2:2. BUT I think the EX1 will produce a better picture even w/ 35MB 4:2:0 b/c it has larger chips (1/2" vs 1/3") AND full raster resoultion (1920x1080 vs 960x540).

PLUS if you really need the 4:2:2 for green screen (or other special effects), you have the option of going SDI out on the EX# which is pre-compression.

Overall the HVX only makes sense right now if you have money invested in P2, or you need a large array of P2 cameras (ie full size) and want everything on the same format.

Lastly I second the Z7U. Yes it is HDV & 25MB so it is compressed the hell out of Dodge, but... better low light, interchangable lenses, cheap media, & only camera that comes standard which is tape & solid state. (The HVX is a HD camera that can only record DV to tape, so in my mind that doesn't count.)

 

[The Thing on The Sticks]

Having used the HVX I would not personally go with p2 but that is mostly because of future compatibility issues and personal preference. I have been really impressed with the ex1 and as I understand it the ex3 will allow interchangeable lenses which may put it on my list of things to purchase in the near future.

 

[Douglas]

Saw a FCP demo at the Panny booth at NAB this year. P2 & FCP seem to work very nicely.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying there was any compatiblity issues. I'm sure FCP will handle the P2 codec just fine.

What I'm saying is that there is no Panasonic equivalent (to my knowledge) of the Sony XDCAM Transfer utility. It can be run stand-alone or inside FCP as a plugin. And if you haven't used XDCAM Transfer then you can't fully appreciate all the benefits it gives you in the overall workflow. That is something to be conisdered when shopping for cameras.

Doug

 

[BoomDrive]

What I'm saying is that there is no Panasonic equivalent (to my knowledge) of the Sony XDCAM Transfer utility. It can be run stand-alone or inside FCP as a plugin. And if you haven't used XDCAM Transfer then you can't fully appreciate all the benefits it gives you in the overall workflow. That is something to be conisdered when shopping for cameras.

Workflow is very important to me! One of my projects will involve travelling for a couple of weeks. I want to be able to "offload" clips from the solid state cards (be it P2 or SxS) onto a hard drive for storage until we can get back home and begin sorting through everything. My idea right now is to shoot throughout the day, get back to the hotel, dump the clips into the hard drive, and clear out the cards. I'll label each day accordingly (such as 6-21-2008, 6-22-2008, et cetera), taking notes and sticking them into the folder as well.

Truth be told, EX1 is winning out. It's got a steeper price tag, but I'm more than happy to pay a little more for higher quality images. Since my last topic of discussion (HVX vs. EX1), I found a guy who posted several clips and still images of the quality differences between the two cameras (link here).

FCP is an interesting choice. I've never used it before. I'm more of an Avid man. I'm willing to give anything a shot if it makes my work easier. How does FCP compare to Avid?

 

[Canonman]

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying there was any compatiblity issues. I'm sure FCP will handle the P2 codec just fine.

What I'm saying is that there is no Panasonic equivalent (to my knowledge) of the Sony XDCAM Transfer utility. It can be run stand-alone or inside FCP as a plugin. And if you haven't used XDCAM Transfer then you can't fully appreciate all the benefits it gives you in the overall workflow. That is something to be conisdered when shopping for cameras.

Doug

P2 has a bit tighter integration with FCP in that it needs no stand alone software. P2 Import in FCP invokes a built in Log and Transfer window. However, as you know, the same 'plug-in' type interface is on its way for the EX and SxS cards in FCP. You'll finally be able to bring in EX material with a built in type Log and Transfer window rather than launch XDCAM Transfer.

cm

 

[Douglas]

You'll finally be able to bring in EX material with a built in type Log and Transfer window rather than launch XDCAM Transfer.
cm

Greg,

You miss my point. I don't want to avoid using XDCAM Transfer. Just the opposite. I embrace it! I would not want a workflow that did not utilize it. This is what makes using XDCAM better with Final Cut than other formats because they don't have an equivalent to XDCAM Transfer. I don't understand why anyone would want to bypass it. Doesn't make sense.

I've tried the FCP Log and Transfer window with clips recorded on CompactFlash with the Z7U and it sucks. Maybe P2 is different, but from what I have experienced with the Z7U, FCP's Log & Transfer system is vastly inferior to XDCAM Transfer. No comparison at all.

So if Apple wants to make XDCAM also work with the Log & Transfer window, that's fine with me. But I'll keep using XDCAM Transfer anyway. It would be as step in the wrong direction to do otherwise.

And beyond that, I don't want to do my clip transfering within FCP anyway. I import, manage, organize, backup, and archive my clips completely separate from FCP. In my workflow, importing has nothing at all to do with editing. They are completely separate steps and I have no intention of changing that. The beauty of XDCAM Transfer is that I can use it inside FCP or standalone. It works either way.

Doug

 

[zac love]

I don't want to avoid using XDCAM Transfer. ...
I've tried the FCP Log and Transfer window with clips recorded on CompactFlash with the Z7U and it sucks. Maybe P2 is different...

I haven't used the XDCam Transfer, but it sounds wonderful.

The Z7U m2t file transfer plugin for FCP really really really needs some work, as it just grabs the whole file, no preview or "In & Out" points in the transfer.

The P2 works soomthly from what I saw in the demo. But if you can be rendering (or whatever) w/ FCP in the background & importing w/ the XDCam, then I think that is a much better workflow.

 

[Douglas]

But if you can be rendering (or whatever) w/ FCP in the background & importing w/ the XDCam, then I think that is a much better workflow.

Yes, you've got that right. That's just one of many reasons why it's great to be able to run XDCAM Transfer as a stand alone.

If you're really in a hurry, you can bring the first imported clip(s) into FCP and start editing as soon as they are moved onto the hard drive -- while XDCAM Transfer continues to bring in the rest of them in the background.

Doug
www.VortexMedia.com

 

[The Daywood]

Workflow is very important to me! One of my projects will involve travelling for a couple of weeks. I want to be able to "offload" clips from the solid state cards (be it P2 or SxS) onto a hard drive for storage until we can get back home and begin sorting through everything. My idea right now is to shoot throughout the day, get back to the hotel, dump the clips into the hard drive, and clear out the cards. I'll label each day accordingly (such as 6-21-2008, 6-22-2008, et cetera), taking notes and sticking them into the folder as well.
[...]

The HVX-200(a) and all of the Panasonic P2 cameras allow for transfer to HD via USB or Firewire without a computer intermediary...They will do 15 cards via firewire and 23 cards via USB...The 200 and 500 do not have powered USB ports, so you will have to have a powered HD, but the 2000 and above have powered ports so you could use a passport drive.


I wished that Sony had gone the route of P2 and had a united media for all of their cameras...I would have done that in a heartbeat...But as pointed out by someone else, the ability to invest in one system was attractive. Having to shell out for SxS cards then XDCam Drives was just a bit out of the budget. Going with P2 and being able to use them for all levels of cameras was great...

 

[BoomDrive]

The HVX-200(a) and all of the Panasonic P2 cameras allow for transfer to HD via USB or Firewire without a computer intermediary.

That's not really important to me. I plan to log clips as they're stored anyway.

Having to shell out for SxS cards then XDCam Drives was just a bit out of the budget.

You don't need to "shell out" for XDCam drives.

Biggest problem I see with P2 is the now obsolete PCMCIA slot. Those don't come on many, if any, new laptops anymore. Express Card does.

Since I plan on using a laptop and an external hard drive (or two), the ExpressCard feature is very attractive.

The beauty of XDCAM Transfer is that I can use it inside FCP or standalone. It works either way.

Is there a way to get FCP without having to get FCS? I'm not interested in paying $1,300 to get programs I won't even use.