More political stuff...

Buck Satan said:
So if the system is broken then everybody gets a free ride? General amnesty for several million lawbreakers who now have a prefered status? And all beacause GWB suggested it. Millions living a life as an exploitable, disposable slave in our country and your best suggestion is "Sounds good! Lets keep it going!" Very enlightened...
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One of the reasons it's so fun to banter with you is your lack of ability to read... You present no solutions. My assessment was correct -- you're a eunuch with no opinion, only here to "piss people off." But your Pavlovian knee jerk reaction to the plan was very comical...

No free rides, the people who are here have to pay a fine. Somewhere around $5,000 payable over time. In the plan they would also have to learn English and stay out of trouble. They would also begin paying into the tax base. I don't know about you, but my state is looking at a billion dollar shortfall. It would be nice to get some of that under-the-table money.

Giving them status during their time waiting for citizenship would also make them less exploitable. They'd be eligible for minimum wage, bank accounts so they're not always carrying around cash, actual doctors over the emergency room, educational resources, small business loans, home loans...

And your plan for the illegal problem is? (I think I already know the answer to the question)
 
A little History on illegal immigrants

HOOVER (Republican) AND EISENHOWER (Republican)
Back during the Great Depression, President Herbert Hoover ordered the deportation of all illegal aliens in order to make jobs available to American citizens that desperately needed work.

And then again in 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower deported 13 million
Mexican nationals! The program was called "Operation Wetback" so that American WWII and Korean veterans had a better chance at jobs. It took 2 years, but they deported them! (YES WE CAN!)
(Google Operation Wetback)

FISCAL COST OF IMMIGRATION
After careful review, anyone with a even a modicum of logic can come to no other conclusion: illegal immigration must be halted, illegal immigrants here now must be deported and legal immigration needs decreased from the approx. 2 million allowed in per year currently.

Please review the following report on the FISCAL COST OF IMMIGRATION by economist Edwin Rubenstein
http://www.esrresearch.com/Rubensteinreport.pdf

A partial summary of the report:

The impact on 15 Federal Departments surveyed was: $346 billion in fiscal related costs in FY 2007.

Each immigrant cost taxpayers more than $9,000 per year.

An immigrant household (2 adults, 2 children) cost taxpayers $36,000 per year.

Legal immigrants were not separated out from illegal immigrants for the fiscal impact study, but if they had been, the fiscal cost per ILLEGAL immigrant would be even more shocking than the figures quoted above.

The most extensive and authoritative study, prior to economist Edwin Rubenstein's "The Fiscal Impact of Immigration" (April 2008) , is the National Research Council (NRC)’s The New Americans: Economic, Demographic and Fiscal Effects of Immigration (1997).

The NRC staff analyzed federal, state, and local government expenditures on programs such as Medicaid, AFDC (now TANF), and SSI, as well as the cost of educating immigrants’ foreign- and native-born children.

NRC found that the average immigrant household receives $13,326 in federal annual expenditures and pays $10,664 in federal taxes—that is, they generate a fiscal deficit of $2,682 (1996 dollars)per household.

In 2007 dollars this is a deficit of $3,408 per immigrant household.

With 9 million households currently headed by immigrants, more than $30 billion ($3,408 x 9 million) of the federal deficit represents money transferred from native taxpayers to immigrants.

Our national immigration policies have to work for the United States. While improving the plight of the world’s poor is a laudable goal, the finite resources we have available to fulfill that goal would be swamped if there wasn’t some orderly and manageable system in place to limit entry into the United States to what this nation can actually support. The more illegal aliens that are permitted to subvert the immigration system, the fewer immigrants we can accommodate who might actually produce a positive benefit for our country.

The more we become a nation of illegal immigrants, the deeper we fall into anarchy.
 
mjtv said:
FISCAL COST OF IMMIGRATION
After careful review, anyone with a even a modicum of logic can come to no other conclusion: illegal immigration must be halted, illegal immigrants here now must be deported and legal immigration needs decreased from the approx. 2 million allowed in per year currently.

Please review the following report on the FISCAL COST OF IMMIGRATION by economist Edwin Rubenstein
http://www.esrresearch.com/Rubensteinreport.pdf

A partial summary of the report:

The impact on 15 Federal Departments surveyed was: $346 billion in fiscal related costs in FY 2007.

Each immigrant cost taxpayers more than $9,000 per year.

An immigrant household (2 adults, 2 children) cost taxpayers $36,000 per year.

Legal immigrants were not separated out from illegal immigrants for the fiscal impact study, but if they had been, the fiscal cost per ILLEGAL immigrant would be even more shocking than the figures quoted above.

The most extensive and authoritative study, prior to economist Edwin Rubenstein's "The Fiscal Impact of Immigration" (April 2008) , is the National Research Council (NRC)’s The New Americans: Economic, Demographic and Fiscal Effects of Immigration (1997).

The NRC staff analyzed federal, state, and local government expenditures on programs such as Medicaid, AFDC (now TANF), and SSI, as well as the cost of educating immigrants’ foreign- and native-born children.

NRC found that the average immigrant household receives $13,326 in federal annual expenditures and pays $10,664 in federal taxes—that is, they generate a fiscal deficit of $2,682 (1996 dollars)per household.

In 2007 dollars this is a deficit of $3,408 per immigrant household.

With 9 million households currently headed by immigrants, more than $30 billion ($3,408 x 9 million) of the federal deficit represents money transferred from native taxpayers to immigrants.

Our national immigration policies have to work for the United States. While improving the plight of the world’s poor is a laudable goal, the finite resources we have available to fulfill that goal would be swamped if there wasn’t some orderly and manageable system in place to limit entry into the United States to what this nation can actually support. The more illegal aliens that are permitted to subvert the immigration system, the fewer immigrants we can accommodate who might actually produce a positive benefit for our country.

The more we become a nation of illegal immigrants, the deeper we fall into anarchy.
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Exactly, which is why we need enormous immigration reforms.

So, if you want to quote studies from groups known to have an active bias against minority groups, feel free. I'm sure the KKK and National Alliance has something to say about immigrants too.

And, if you'd read the New Americans report, you'd learn that you're totally skewing its findings. Since it costs $68 to purchase and is over 400 pages long, I'm guessing you have no idea what its final conclusions were.

What Rubenstein's report fails to include, that the New Americans report does, is the fiscal impact of illegal immigrants paying into the tax base using false taxpayer ID numbers. This money is seen as a surplus by our government and measures in the billions every year.

Rubenstein's report also does not address the fiscal impact of cheap labor and savings passed on to consumers.

What's laughable is how you rely on numbers and costs to prove your point, but you still believe mass deportation is a responsible solution. Frankly, it's foolish to think things would be better with the illegals out of the country.
 
Why do you defend slave wages for illegals?

Jax said:
What's laughable is how you rely on numbers and costs to prove your point, but you still believe mass deportation is a responsible solution. Frankly, it's foolish to think things would be better with the illegals out of the country.
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If you take away all the freebies, they will leave on their own.
Then, we can allow in Documented Legal workers where needed.
Frankly, there are many Americans that need the jobs but refuse to work for 75 cents an hour.
 
jim sitton said:
If you take away all the freebies, they will leave on their own.
Then, we can allow in Documented Legal workers where needed.
Frankly, there are many Americans that need the jobs but refuse to work for 75 cents an hour.
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"They're taking our jobs!!!" It's a laughable defense that's been roundly disproven.

I don't defend slave wages. I openly said the path to citizenship would allow those who are making below minimum wage to be included in the federal standard. Fact is, there are many who are making at or above the minimum.

And again, you're foolish to think that they're getting freebies. Many pay payroll taxes and don't have the pleasure of reaping the benefits.

Some will leave, some will stay and others will keep coming to America, still major reform needs to happen.
 
(I think I already know the answer to the question)
No, that would require you to know how to think.

Jax, your and GWB's plan for "major reform" doesn’t address the root causes for illegal immigration. Granting 7 million+ illegal aliens amnesty will change nothing. What happens when the next wave of illegal aliens infiltrates? Give them amnesty too? And the next and the next? So as long as are borders are too porous (and I mean everywhere, whether you are climbing under a bridge in San Diego or coming in on a cargo container into Newark or driving across the Thousand Islands bridge) people will come into this country to reap the economic reward. And as long as companies are allowed to exploit these people (whether it is picking arugala for pennies, or working construction, or in the meatpacking plants or down at the Asian Rub & Tug) then the situation will not change. Companies that hire illegal aliens do so not for the fact that they are aliens but for the fact that these people have no social or economic contract and are therefore disposable. Change the illegals status, and these companies will utilize the next wave of illegal aliens. The cycle continues.
 
Buck Satan said:
(I think I already know the answer to the question)
No, that would require you to know how to think.

Jax, your and GWB's plan for "major reform" doesn’t address the root causes for illegal immigration. Granting 7 million+ illegal aliens amnesty will change nothing. What happens when the next wave of illegal aliens infiltrates? Give them amnesty too? And the next and the next? So as long as are borders are too porous (and I mean everywhere, whether you are climbing under a bridge in San Diego or coming in on a cargo container into Newark or driving across the Thousand Islands bridge) people will come into this country to reap the economic reward. And as long as companies are allowed to exploit these people (whether it is picking arugala for pennies, or working construction, or in the meatpacking plants or down at the Asian Rub & Tug) then the situation will not change. Companies that hire illegal aliens do so not for the fact that they are aliens but for the fact that these people have no social or economic contract and are therefore disposable. Change the illegals status, and these companies will utilize the next wave of illegal aliens. The cycle continues.
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Your lack of an answer proves my point. Since you missed it, here's my question...

And your plan for the illegal problem is? (I think I already know the answer to the question)
 
Your lack of an answer proves my point. Since you missed it, here's my question...

your and GWB's plan for "major reform" doesn’t address the root causes for illegal immigration. Granting 7 million+ illegal aliens amnesty will change nothing. What happens when the next wave of illegal aliens infiltrates? Give them amnesty too? And the next and the next? So as long as are borders are too porous (and I mean everywhere, whether you are climbing under a bridge in San Diego or coming in on a cargo container into Newark or driving across the Thousand Islands bridge) people will come into this country to reap the economic reward. And as long as companies are allowed to exploit these people (whether it is picking arugala for pennies, or working construction, or in the meatpacking plants or down at the Asian Rub & Tug) then the situation will not change. Companies that hire illegal aliens do so not for the fact that they are aliens but for the fact that these people have no social or economic contract and are therefore disposable. Change the illegals status, and these companies will utilize the next wave of illegal aliens. The cycle continues. What will your and Bush's "plan" do to combat the root causes of illegal imigration?

If you cant answer, please, continue to dodge the question...
 
Buck Satan said:
What will your and Bush's "plan" do to combat the root causes of illegal imigration?

If you cant answer, please, continue to dodge the question...
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I'm not dodging. I don't know what the answer is.

So what's your plan to deal with those that are already here?
 
I'm not dodging. I don't know what the answer is.

You know Jax you really surprised me. You stuck to your guns and gave me an honest answer. That takes character.

So I will answer one truth with another: I have no plan for the illegal immigrants in this country. I don’t believe that a broad granting of citizenship to all of these people is the answer although you do raise some good points that it would offer them some protections. Massed deportations will not work, as it will breed a festering nationalism as show so well by MJTV. It would also be an egregious violation of the rights of the citizens of this country. No American should be asked to produce citizenship papers because of the color of their skin.

In my opinion, a tightening of border controls (not closing mind you), an establishment of a migrant or guest visa program (its been done before see the Bracero Treaty circa 1942) with a broad oversight on keeping track of aliens in the country, and finally a method of punishing those companies that exploit these workers and also the secondary companies that utilize them.

The problem is that these suggestions are at most short-term solutions. The only long-term solution to end a migration based on economic need is to equalize the economic opportunities on both sides of the border. Mexico might be rising economically but the place is still a dump. I suspect that with the state of our economy we might be equalizing to them.

Feel free to critique...
 
The solution to the problem is simple. Busses, trains, planes, and boats leave U.S. ports every day. Those who are here illegally should be on them, along with any 'anchor babies' created during their incursion. Adoption of English as the one and only official national language, and a requirement for a basic mastery of it, would go a long way toward ensuring assimilation of legal immigrants. Please note that I have not made mention of any specific race or nationallity in this post.
 
You're right!!! Send 'em all back to where they came from! I can't believe nobody came up with that one earlier. It's all so simple.......
 
Mike@kennedys said:
The solution to the problem is simple. Busses, trains, planes, and boats leave U.S. ports every day. Those who are here illegally should be on them, along with any 'anchor babies' created during their incursion. Adoption of English as the one and only official national language, and a requirement for a basic mastery of it, would go a long way toward ensuring assimilation of legal immigrants. Please note that I have not made mention of any specific race or nationallity in this post.
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Yet another stupid and shortsighted post from the "Deport!" crowd...

And whether you like to admit it or not, the anti-illegal and mass deportation crowd is inherently racist.
 
Buck Satan said:
I'm not dodging. I don't know what the answer is.

You know Jax you really surprised me. You stuck to your guns and gave me an honest answer. That takes character.

So I will answer one truth with another: I have no plan for the illegal immigrants in this country. I don’t believe that a broad granting of citizenship to all of these people is the answer although you do raise some good points that it would offer them some protections. Massed deportations will not work, as it will breed a festering nationalism as show so well by MJTV. It would also be an egregious violation of the rights of the citizens of this country. No American should be asked to produce citizenship papers because of the color of their skin.

In my opinion, a tightening of border controls (not closing mind you), an establishment of a migrant or guest visa program (its been done before see the Bracero Treaty circa 1942) with a broad oversight on keeping track of aliens in the country, and finally a method of punishing those companies that exploit these workers and also the secondary companies that utilize them.

The problem is that these suggestions are at most short-term solutions. The only long-term solution to end a migration based on economic need is to equalize the economic opportunities on both sides of the border. Mexico might be rising economically but the place is still a dump. I suspect that with the state of our economy we might be equalizing to them.

Feel free to critique...
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Good post Buck, and I agree with the vast majority of this. The broad oversite is desperately needed.

There isn't one right answer, but change must come, but not by bus, train and airplane as another suggests.
 
Agreed. The day we start railroading undesireables to "happy fun habitation camps" for outprocessing is they day this country isnt worth saving...
 
And whether you like to admit it or not, the anti-illegal and mass deportation crowd is inherently racist.

Not necessarily. I submit that it is more Nationalistic than racist. One can feel as strongly about illegal immigrants from Canada, Russia or Israel.
 
Not necessarily. I submit that it is more Nationalistic than racist. One can feel as strongly about illegal immigrants from Canada, Russia or Israel. Buck Satan
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I think the problem is not that it's racist, or Nationalistic....it's lack of assimilation
into society. Since this country was founded, immigrants have come from all over the world to become US citizens. They brought their culture, but left their language behind so that they could communicate and assimilate. This is not happening with this recent wave of Hispanic immigrants. With many communities
and services, (schools, banks, jobs, etc) offering spanish language as alternatives rather than insisting on english only compounds the problem and creates an even greater divide. I don't feel xenophobic in my opinion...it's just in my mind a fact that everyone wants to ignore but one that is glaringly apparent and getting
to be more of a problem as populations change.
 
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