HDTV has arrived

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
XDCam-HD here we come. From today's NATPE Daily Lead:

More channels, better prices mean HDTV has arrived
With more HD channels and a drop on the prices of HDTV sets, HDTV is poised to move into the mainstream. The Digital Entertainment Group predicted that by the end of the year roughly 36% of all homes in the U.S. could have HDTVs, and about 20% may have more than one.
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Warren
 

Rad

Well-known member
And we still have people who think like this...


“Why aren’t we shooting HD in the field? It’s a cost issue,” echoed Peter Diaz, He’s president and general manager of Houston’s KHOU, a station that has not only moved to HD newscasts, but has installed an HD camera in its news helicopter. (So has WFAA.)

“Besides, the 16:9 video being shot on our SD ENG camcorders looks pretty good, frankly, and I don’t think that most people really know whether they are seeing HD or 16:9 SD on their HDTVs when they see it.”

“We get a lot of feedback from Texans about our HDTV newscast, because Texans love to talk,” laughed Dave Muscari, WFAA’s vice president of product development. “So far there has not been any groundswell of people complaining about our SD ENG video. Frankly, I doubt they even notice the difference between it and our in-studio video.”

(the entire story here: http://www.photogslounge.net/infocus216.html)
 
this is the real reason

<i>"Having spent millions to upgrade to DTV within the FCC’s tight schedule—with no additional ad revenues to offset the expense—broadcasters are looking to save where they can."</i>

Why buy ALL new cameras when the cameras you already have work perfectly fine? And the GMs are right. You can't tell the difference.

F+W B
 

cinehead

Well-known member
Most video shot my local news stations flat-out sucks. It's not because of the photographer of the camera, it's because most of it is fed back to the station via a microwave signal that just kills the video.

Until a better way is found to feed field video, it doesn't matter if it's HD of not, it will still look like crap.
 

Rad

Well-known member
Go stand in your local Warehouse Club or Electronics store. WHen you see someone making a purchase of an new HD set, ask THEM what they want to see on that new TV set. HD or SD? and I'll bet once they watch a few shows in HD they'll never watch SD again.

I"ve been an HD viewer at home for a few years now. ANd like most, I'll watch a documentary on bug mating in HD over an SD show anytime! People with the new TV's are simply going to stop watching lesser quality video.
 

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
...and I'll bet once they watch a few shows in HD they'll never watch SD again.
That question was asked on my car club website and the responses were exactly that. People that have HDTVs and cable in HD say they can't go back to watching SD again. The clarity, color and sharpnes are so much better on HD than on SD. Sort of like going from dial up internet to high speed, once you do it, you can't go back.

And yes "Joe Six-Pack" notices.

Warren
 

Frank McBride

Well-known member
Speaking as one who shoots for KHOU and watches the HD broadcast at home, I want to make 3 points.

First, although what we shoot is not HD, the fact the full resolution is making it to the viewer makes a HUGE difference from the SD channel, and I think the fact that it looks really good and is in 16x9 so it fills up the screen is enough to please most people.

Second, we will eventually be shooting true HD (we have 3 XD HD cams on the street now and more coming), but are giving the viewers the best we have in the interim.

Finally, on the issue of live shots and live video feeds looking terrible: I couldn't agree more. Talk about a weak link. Quite often these look worse than our SD channel. I would love to see that solved.

FMc
 

Ace Of Nothing

Well-known member
I've been talking about HD to my non-TV friends for years now, one of them got an HDTV and HD cable hook-up. He has about 300 channels but says he watches the 12 HD channels 90% of the time since he can't go back to normal television. All the friends that come over to watch the game etc. CAN notice the difference.

I think it's going to be like any major consumer technology change, it will take a few years until it reaches a tipping point. Like DVD's and VHS. I remember when no one had a DVD player, then a few, then BlockBuster had a few DVD's, then the "turning point", when the video stores all had their big VHS sale day and the tape section became smaller than the DVD section.

The turning point is coming soon. TV news will be forced to get on board.

Food for thought, do they even MAKE VHS tapes any more?
 

cameradog

Well-known member
People with the new TV's are simply going to stop watching lesser quality video.
That should be easy enough to prove. If that statement is true, then as more people buy HD televisions, the stations that originate their news in HD should see a ratings increase at the expense of the stations that continue to shoot SD and upconvert.

Some stations are gambling that the difference between SD and HD acquisition won't make enough of a difference in ratings to justify the extra expense. Others are gambling that the investment now will give them an advantage as more people buy HD sets. The winner of that contest should be clear from the ratings data over the next few years. If it's not clear whether there's an effect on the audience, the win automatically defaults to the side that is saving money, because that result basically says that there's no discernible difference that justifies the extra cost.

When it's put in cost analysis terms, I fully understand why these companies aren't choosing to air the best possible product. How photogs here feel about the video is mostly irrelevant from a business standpoint.
 

Mr MoOz

Well-known member
I am wondering if and when we actually use our competitive advantage of HD, full Hd, that we can kill a lot of this traffic running off to the web with its sub wrinkled vhs quality...



Youtube, Liveleak are cool for a moment just like a flaming car wreck; but when it comes to sit and watch something, HD is it.
 

SimonW

Well-known member
Some stations are gambling that the difference between SD and HD acquisition won't make enough of a difference in ratings to justify the extra expense.
That's a biiiig gamble to take. The fact is that just like the introduction of colour HD will be the absolute standard at some point. When HD reaches saturation point the stations that still broadcast SD will be in serious trouble and left reeling from the expense of trying to upgrade to HD when their revenue will be in decline!

Upgrading to HD capability isn't just a case of moving with the times to what will be a certain eventuality. In the current climate it is also an added selling point to get more people to watch your station. The number of HD channels is small at the moment and people who have HD are hungry for more. Surely more can be charged for advertising time too?
 

D.St.

Well-known member
I think once the "wow" factor wears off of HD, it's going to come down to the content, as it always has. If production quality was the sole dictator as to why people watched things, YouTube wouldn't move more than 100 million videos per day.

Think of it like this: Watch "Transformers" and "Citizen Kane". Sure, the production quality of "Transformers" is infinitely better, but which one is the more powerful movie?
 

cameradog

Well-known member
That's a biiiig gamble to take. The fact is that just like the introduction of colour HD will be the absolute standard at some point. When HD reaches saturation point the stations that still broadcast SD...
You're mixing up the issues. I'm talking specifically about acquisition in HD, not broadcast. Stations must at the very least upgrade to digital transmitters, because they are required by law to do so. Most of them will broadcast HD, because once they've upgraded their transmitters they really have no reason not to. They'll take their HD network signals and broadcast those out to their viewers.

But in their own local work, as in local news, many will continue to shoot SD and upconvert it to their HD signal. They're still transmitting HD. They're just not shooting HD. That's what's happening at many shops now. The gamble to which I referred is that the folks at home won't care about the lower quality of news video compared to what they see on network programming. Management at those stations believes SD video will be "good enough." Since local news video has traditionally been of a lesser quality than network programming anyway, they figure the viewers are used to it and won't really object.

Let me stress that I am not necessarily advocating this position. But from a pure business standpoint, at this point in time it is no less valid a strategy than making a full conversion and gambling that the viewers will know the difference.

... will be in serious trouble and left reeling from the expense of trying to upgrade to HD when their revenue will be in decline!
They could find themselves in trouble, but not likely, for a few reasons. One is that even if their revenues fall, the cost of upgrading to HD will also fall, so that when they're ready to upgrade they'll still be able to afford it.

Another is the time value of money. One of the basic principles of financial management is that money is worth more the longer you keep it and worth less the sooner you spend it, due to interest. Most individuals deal with such small amounts in their daily lives that the time value of money doesn't affect them very directly and they never get a good sense of it. But at a corporate level, it adds up to a lot of money. Thus, a million dollars spent today on equipment is a lot more than a million spent five years from now, because the company can make use of that million dollars in the interim to make more money.

So, to a station that waits, they're making money in the meantime off the money they didn't spend, while everyone else's equipment is aging. Then when the prices are low enough that they're ready to buy, not only will their product be as good as everyone else's, but all the bugs will have been worked out by everyone else to make the transition smoother.


Upgrading to HD capability isn't just a case of moving with the times to what will be a certain eventuality. In the current climate it is also an added selling point to get more people to watch your station.
You don't need a complete top to bottom upgrade to HD to still use it as a selling point. Many stations that have gone to HD advertise their newscasts in HD, while still shooting their video in the field in SD. To us, it looks misleading, but viewers don't understand enough to know the difference.

Is their newscast in HD? Yes. They upconvert everything and broadcast an HD signal. The station isn't lying about it. And if you tell the audience it's HD, they'll simply believe it.

To illustrate, consider two stations, one that does everything in HD and the other that shoots SD in the field and upconverts.

Station 1 says, "Everything we do is in HD!"

Station 2 says, "Everything we broadcast is in HD!"

Station 1 says, "We're the only station that produces its news completely in HD!"

Station 2 says, "We broadcast every newscast to you in crisp, clear HD!"

Station 1 says, "We're the only station using HD cameras to get the news we bring to you!"

Station 2 says, "Every newscast we bring you is shot with our new $100,000 HD studio cameras!"

I hope you can see that from the standpoint of the viewer at home, who generally has no idea how the sausage is made behind the scenes, all those lines seem to be saying the same thing. You don't necessarily have to be shooting everything in HD to find a way to promote yourself as an HD station.

The number of HD channels is small at the moment and people who have HD are hungry for more. Surely more can be charged for advertising time too?
I doubt it. HD airtime is not worth more money than SD. What determines the price is not the quality of the video, but the number of eyes glued to it.
 

Ace Of Nothing

Well-known member
I think every station will be upgrading to shooting in HD soon because I don't know about the rest of you, but my station's SD gear is falling apart. We shoot SX and the cameras are doing OK but the decks are going down more and more. And at this point finding SX gear is impossible. I heard a rumour that we bought some used SX camera bodies from a local american station that just upgraded to HD.

HD cameras don't cost that much, especialy compared to SD gear of the past. The cameras are half the cost of a 600 and you don't need to expensive decks and switching gear to cut with, just FCP on a laptop which you can get for around $5000 US.

I think in the next couple of years it will just be cheaper to upgrade to HD than replace old, obsolete hard to find SD gear.

The real cost I hear is in the infastructure in the station to the distribution.
 

Canonman

Well-known member
That should be easy enough to prove. If that statement is true, then as more people buy HD televisions, the stations that originate their news in HD should see a ratings increase at the expense of the stations that continue to shoot SD and upconvert.

Some stations are gambling that the difference between SD and HD acquisition won't make enough of a difference in ratings to justify the extra expense. Others are gambling that the investment now will give them an advantage as more people buy HD sets. The winner of that contest should be clear from the ratings data over the next few years. If it's not clear whether there's an effect on the audience, the win automatically defaults to the side that is saving money, because that result basically says that there's no discernible difference that justifies the extra cost.
WFAA went HD earlier in the year. They say it has boosted their ratings. People who are just now buying HD sets (at their local Wally World no less), want to put that investment to use right away. So naturally, they go to the station that is airing local news in HD.

As to the statement made about not seeing the difference from the field cameras, that's pure horse sh**. It's very obvious. Granted, SD acquisition looks much better coming OTA in digital than in analog, but there is a visible difference between the HD and SD cameras.

cm
 

cameradog

Well-known member
WFAA went HD earlier in the year. They say it has boosted their ratings.
Of course they do. What do their competitors say?

Have they gone completely HD, or are they shooting SD and upconverting? Which cameras are they shooting with on the street?

People who are just now buying HD sets (at their local Wally World no less), want to put that investment to use right away. So naturally, they go to the station that is airing local news in HD.
Nobody else there is broadcasting HD?

As to the statement made about not seeing the difference from the field cameras, that's pure horse sh**. It's very obvious. Granted, SD acquisition looks much better coming OTA in digital than in analog, but there is a visible difference between the HD and SD cameras.
It's obvious to you and me. It is not necessarily obvious to a less savvy viewer. Hell, most people can't tell the difference between film and video.

You have to remember that the people who have been buying HDTV up to now have money. They are going to be more savvy than the general population of viewers who will be forced to switch in the next few years. They bought HD because they wanted HD for the better picture quality and could afford it. They would naturally be looking for the difference, if for no other reason to justify their expenditure. So when you talk to them, and you hear them say they could never watch SD video again, they're not exactly speaking for the unwashed masses.

They are still the minority. The majority are waiting for smaller, more affordable sets. Many of them will probably end up watching your beautiful HD signal downconverted to an older NTSC set that will still last another five, ten years. While the broadcasters have to stop broadcasting NTSC, I seriously doubt the cable companies are going to leave their NTSC customers hanging and give up on that revenue. They'll take your beautiful HD signal, downconvert it, compress the hell out of it and send it through wires to the majority of your viewers who, on their 20" NTSC teevees, won't have the slightest clue whether the story they just watched on your newscast was shot with an HD camera, an HDV camera or an SD camera.

Eventually, little by little, they'll upgrade. The gamble I mentioned concerns the timing of this upgrade and how it will affect ratings. If your competitor can maintain his advertising revenue without making the expenditure you've made to improve your picture, there's less reason from a business standpoint for him to do it.
 

patssle

Well-known member
It's funny to hear people don't like watching SD after seeing HD. I don't like watching broadcast HD after editing uncompressed HDCAM at my work! When I watch broadcast HD, it looks so compressed and so many artifacts, it drives me nuts if I pay attention to it. At work I edit on VelocityHD uncompressed shot on Sony HDW-750 HDCAM. It looks amazingly beautiful. Then to see broadcast HD, wow what a reduction in quality.
 

Canuck Photog

Well-known member
I know here in Toronto/GTA, the only station claiming to broadcast their newscast in HD is CityTV. They like to point that out everytime they start the show...but as any news worker here in this market will tell you, all of their field stuff is shot in SD 16x9 (their studio stuff is shot in full HD apparently). They use those Ikegami edit cams (the ones with hard disks), and from an SD pov, the colours look fantastic! It looks a helluva lot nicer from when they were shooting on betaSP! So if a channel can "piece together" an "HD newscast" using both types, I really don't think average Joe viewer would notice.

The other locals here in town (CBC Toronto, CTV Toronto, Global Toronto, OMNI and Rogers Television) seem scared about the whole HD switch...I know at the network level they have HD shooting going on, but I don't think anyone's made the jump yet at the local stations. I could see CBC jumping on the XDCAM HD bandwagon, but then again they get their funding from Parliament, so their budget is much larger.

I know it's been mentioned before in this thread, but one thing I keep hearing is this: it's the EDITING GEAR. From what I hear, editing full HD (NOT HDV) on an NLE is really, really expensive and TIME CONSUMING...and there is NO TIME in news!!! :)

Cheers,

CP
 

Canonman

Well-known member
From what I hear, editing full HD (NOT HDV) on an NLE is really, really expensive and TIME CONSUMING...and there is NO TIME in news!!!
Canuck, it's the compressing that takes time. Working in uncompressed HD requires a RAID disk system to maintain the high data rate, and a dedicated capture board that can handle the full HDSDI signal (and output it in real time for monitoring). Working uncompressed is less processor intensive because there is no computationally intense compression going on. Dedicated hardware encoders can do all this in realtime.

This is part of the reason why cameras like the XDCAM HD are a good match for news ops. The MPEG long gop format is easier on storage requirements (no raid required), it's file based so ingest is faster than realtime, yet maintains a high picture quality. And, you have time code accurate proxies to edit with that are 1/4 resolution (428x240) MPEG 4 files.

RAIDS and capture boards used to be very pricey, but hard discs have gotten dirt cheap and capture boards are at the sub 1K level now. IOW, like most technology, it's getting cheaper by the day.

cm
 
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