For Top Gear/Jeremy Clarkson fans...

McQueen

Well-known member
Lets see where do I start with this mess...First he needs to get some facts straight.Last time I checked Ford(American Company) owns and saved Jaguar,Aston Martin and Range Rover from extinction. BMW(German) owns Mini Cooper,and Bentley and VW(German) owns Rolls Royce.Lotus Exige is Toyota(Japanese) powered and owned by a Malaysian company.Seems like the British car industry is going the same way the motorcycle industry did in the 60's...under.Shelby is powered by a 5.4 liter,not a 4.6 liter,and why test a convertible which is a lot less stiff than the coupe? H2 Hummer weighs in @6,400 lbs.,not the 4 tons he states and the Range Rover weighs about 500 lbs less(about the same weight as some bloated tv wankers).The mention that the Mclaren SLR has been desecrated by Siemens(German company) decals is a hoot.If you want to see under-engineered British rubbish, look no further than a mid to late 90's Land Rover 90 with a 60's Buick engine(like the one he destroyed) in it.Why didn't he put the Z06 and the Ford GT on the track with that goofy Atom and the Lotus...I'd like to see that matchup.Plus,how many old British cars do you see on the road today?...Not many,but you still see mid 60's Vettes cruising around...a testament to their excellent build quality and timeless design.
 

Tapeape

Active member
Seems like the British car industry is going the same way the motorcycle industry did in the 60's...under.
It's the same license people take when they call Chrysler an American car. . .

The mention that the Mclaren SLR has been desecrated by Siemens(German company) decals is a hoot.
Putting ANY sticker on that car is a desecration ;)

Why didn't he put the Z06 and the Ford GT on the track with that goofy Atom and the Lotus...
Different cars, different missions. The Atom and the Lotus are designed as quick cars that handle like nobody's business. The Z06 and Ford GT are straightline monsters that happen to handle really well, but in the twisties, they're gonna be outclassed by the other two if for no other reason than the transitional roll difference.

I'd like to see that matchup.
Why? We already know what will happen. The Atom whips up in the corners, the Vette catches up on the straights.

Plus,how many old British cars do you see on the road today?...Not many,but you still see mid 60's Vettes cruising around...a testament to their excellent build quality and timeless design.
Or a testament to the fact that a lot of vette owners don't exactly put many miles on their cars. Plus you can't really compare a mid 60's vette to a current vette because they're using very different technologies. Come back in 2045 with an '05 Vette and we'll see if it runs as well as the 65 vette does today.
 

McQueen

Well-known member
I guess it depends on what you want...a usable 200 mph daily driver supercar that will lap the Nurburgring faster than those overpowered go-carts,or a...Go-cart!It also depends heavily on the skills of the driver.The Lotus give up about 50mph top speed to the Vette(zo6) and Ford GT...Skidpad #'s are about the same.On a tight circuit with a lot of slow corners the Lotus will hang,but on faaster circuit of any duration...no contest.British car owners don't put a lot of miles on theirs either...except to the shop and back.
 

Tapeape

Active member
I guess it depends on what you want...a usable 200 mph daily driver supercar that will lap the Nurburgring faster than those overpowered go-carts,or a...Go-cart!
Well again, the missions are different. The Atom is not meant to be a daily driver. The thing doesn't even have a windshield. It's meant to be just about the most fun you can have on 4 wheels, and I'd say it comes pretty close. It'll certainly be a more raw and involving driving experience than the comparitively cushy Vette.

It also depends heavily on the skills of the driver.
That's a given. I'm assuming equal skills, but that's a very big assumption. I also saw a Civic Si toast a Ferrari once because the guy in the Ferrari didn't have a clue how to drive.

The Lotus give up about 50mph top speed to the Vette(zo6) and Ford GT...Skidpad #'s are about the same.
Skidpad isn't the only thing you have to look at though. In fact, a skidpad statistic isn't all that important to real world performance of the car on the track, unless you have a long sweeping turn like the Carousel at Road America. Transitional roll (for our non-car readers who are for some reason reading this still, transitional roll is the period in which the car first enters the corner and the load is transferred to the outside suspension) is a whole lot more important. The sooner the transitional roll happens, the sooner you have max grip on the outside tires (or tyres for british car fans ;) ). Faster transitions to high grip = higher speed through the corners. The lotus weighs a whole lot less than the Vette, and as we know Lotus's suspension design is legendary. That thing's gonna be even faster through the twisties than the skidpad numbers would indicate.

On a tight circuit with a lot of slow corners the Lotus will hang,but on faaster circuit of any duration...no contest.
quite true, but again we've gotta look at the missions of the cars. The lotus is meant to be a nimble cornering master, and it is. The Vette is meant to dominate on long straight stretches of road, while still being pretty good in the corners, and it is. Really, they're both incredible cars.

British car owners don't put a lot of miles on theirs either...except to the shop and back.

;) That is too often true. I particularly like the new land rovers that you test drive and can smell the burning oil wafting through the vents ;)
 

cameragod

Well-known member
A lot of the reason you don’t see many old time British cars is that in the UK they salt the roads and they rust to death. Nothing without modern rust treatment survives long with that. If you visited Christchurch in NZ where they don’t salt the roads and are inland from the sea there are still a lot of pristine examples of British motoring classics running around.
 

cameragod

Well-known member
Clarkson is an acquired taste. Part reviewer, part tabloid, part stand up comedian, all provocateur. If you want to argue it doesn’t matter to him because you are talking about cars.
What I think we should be talking about is the shooting. Its just fantastic, honestly how often do you see TV shot this well? Regardless of how you feel about Clarkson the camera work is simply inspired. Last I heard they were all XD with some high-speed film. Does anybody know any more than that?

p.s. He owns a Ford GT so he can't be too down on American cars.
 

McQueen

Well-known member
It is well shot and edited ,but somewhat repetitive.How many times do I need to see the rattlesnake? I was just pointing out some incongruities and dispel a few myths about who owns who and that some American cars can hold their own with the best the rest of the world has to offer.(and for a lot less money ).A great TV show also has top notch editorial content,which this particular segment seemed to lack. IMO
 

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
What I think we should be talking about is the shooting. Its just fantastic, honestly how often do you see TV shot this well? Regardless of how you feel about Clarkson the camera work is simply inspired. Last I heard they were all XD with some high-speed film. Does anybody know any more than that?

Well, that's what I was getting at, though I enjoyed reading McQueen and Tapeape's posts. Finally, someone who knows what Road America is...

Anyway, the shooting and editing are outstanding, supurb and first rate. Absolutely one of the best shot and edited shows anywhere on the planet. Just look at the use of the shallow depth of field, the editing of sequences. The writing is also first rate, Clarkson's commentaries aside.

It is well shot and edited ,but somewhat repetitive.How many times do I need to see the rattlesnake?
Maybe when you're from the UK, that's the only time you ever get to see a rattlesnake so make the most of it...or something. It's a symbol of the American Southwest and Death Valley, though I (fortunately) didn't see any when I went through the desert.

Oh and by the way, a Austim Healey 100M recently sold for over $86,000 and an early 70's MGB, in decent but not show winning shape went for something like $15,000. Not bad for something w/ SU carburettors and a Lucas electrical system.

Warren
 
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cameragod

Well-known member
Actually they are missing one thing that would make the show even better… me, obviously. Shame that but I guess they will just have to go on as best they can.
 

Deaf and Blind

Well-known member
Guess you missed the review on the ford F150. Cried with laughter it was that brutal in the way they pulled the pi$$ poorely made shoddy piece of crap apart.
 

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
Well, if you think quality doesn't matter and that "Joe Sixpack" doesn't notice the difference in quality, check this out. We were discussing Clarkson's program and Top Gear/5th Gear on the S2000 site (which is where I got the idea to start a thread here).

I said:
"And the way that [Clarkson's] show, along w/ Top Gear is shot and edited is far superior to American automotive TV shows. Maybe that's why we love it so much."

And one of the responses was:
"Exactly. The video production on Top and Fifth Gear is peerless amongst a lot of television programs, let alone just car shows. Car and Driver and Motorweek in comparison look like they're shot by a high school video class."

Think the average viewer doesn't notice quality? Think again.

Warren
 

McQueen

Well-known member
Pretty shots of reptiles and desert scenes are great for Discovery Channel and such but I hope quality starts with correct information to the viewer.If you dont't know the difference between a 5.4l and a 4.6l it may be the perfect show for some folks.It also seems they have a huge budget and crew and the resources of a magazine behind them.It should look good.Shows such as car and driver and motorweek are weekly, consumer type shows,were they don't smash up trailers up for a 1/2 hr and call it informative.I just find some of these segments silly.Automotive programs come and go,but motorweek has been on for like 30yrs...they must be doing something right.
 

SimonW

Well-known member
Clarkson does know his stuff. Okay, maybe he made a cockup with the engine size, but that is rare.

He was right about many things in that programme. Regarding the Mclaren, German company maybe, but an American who plastered all that crap all over it, in America!

The fact is, try driving an American car on a British, or indeed any European road, and the flaws will become very, very apparent. Clarkson is totally spot on when he talks about the suspension of American cars. Who in the hell still uses leaf springs?!

And McQueen, the programme was about European vs American, not British. And Aston Martin is owned by BMW, not Ford. Lotus cars are still British designed. The Lotus guys are legendary (apart from the 1976 Espirit, which we'll forget).

And despite Ford parenting the other British companies, you can bet that it most certainly isn't American people designing the new models.

The Hummer is a useless offroader. No doubt about that.

Sorry for my rant. But if you are American and haven't driven a car on a road that has corners, please come to the UK.

I once drove in America. I can't claim to have driven a huge variety of American cars. But I drove a Dodge somethingorother. Some kind of futuristic looking family saloon, powered by a V6. I drove from LA to SF along the coastal route. Amazingly for an American road this one did have corners. One corner had a 20mph warning sign on it. Me being a Brit saw the corner and thought the sign was talking bollocks. I mean the corner was tight, but it was the sort of thing I could take at 40 quite happily even in my own modest vehicle. So I powered on, only to find the car just lolloped and sponged its way across the road, and nearly into the rocks on the other side of the road.

Sorry guys. Your space programme is great, your other technology is great. But you just can't build cars! ;)
 

McQueen

Well-known member
How do you know the owner of the SLR was American? You may want to read up about composite springs like the ones used in the Z06.....

Top Gear once joked that as trucks use leaf springs, the Corvette must handle like one. In reality, the Corvette's leaf springs afford certain advantages and disadvantages.


Advantages of transverse leaf springs
Less unsprung weight. Coil springs contribute to unsprung weight; the less there is, the more quickly the wheel can respond at a given spring rate.
Less weight. The C4 Corvette's composite front leaf weighed 1/3 as much as the pair of conventional coil springs it would replace.
Weight is positioned lower. Coil springs and the associated chassis hard mounts raise the center of gravity of the car.
Superior wear characteristics. The Corvette's composite leaf springs last longer than coils, though in a car as light as the Corvette, the difference is not especially significant. No Corvette leaf has ever been replaced due to fatigue failure. Steel multi leaf springs used on the rear from 1963 through 1980 do however fatigue and have been known to break.
As used on the Corvette, ride height can be adjusted by changing the length of the end links connecting the leaf to the suspension arms. This allows small changes in ride height with minimal effects on the spring rate.
Also as used on the Corvette, the leaf spring acts as an anti-roll bar, allowing for smaller and lighter bars than if the car were equipped with coil springs.

Disadvantages of transverse leaf springs
Packaging can be problematic; the leaf must span from one side of the car to the other. This can limit applications where the drivetrain, or another part, is in the way.
Materials expense. Steel coils are commodity items; a single composite leaf spring costs more than two of them.
Design complexity. Composite monoleafs allow for considerable variety in shape, thickness, and materials. They are inherently more expensive to design, particularly in performance applications.
Susceptibility to damage. Engine fluids and exhaust modifications like cat-back removal might weaken or destroy composite springs over time. The spring is more susceptible to heat related damage than conventional steel springs.
Perception. Like pushrod engines, the leaf spring has a stigma that overshadows its advantages.

Sorry, but Ford owns Aston Martin,but are looking to unload it.
Wanna talk use useless offroader,how bout the LandRover Freelander that came and went...soo many quality control issues.Hey dont get me wrong,I would love to hammer a Exige along PCH for a hour then hop in my Ford GT and continue on to Seattle??I've driven an Elise and its hard core...a lot like a sport bike...Noisy,scaple handling and a bitch to get in and out of. Give me a hour and I'm done...had my fun.I've also driven the Z06 and GT and you cant get me out of them...cant wait for the ss vette.It really depends on your wants, needs and pocketbook.
 

SimonW

Well-known member
How do you know the owner of the SLR was American?
Because nowhere else in the world would you find that done to one of them! ;)

You might also note that though the Vette handled on the track, it wasn't so good to drive on a real road. There's a reason why every other country in the world has abandoned leaf springs.

I stand correct on Aston. But you want to try driving on a European road. Try a BMW M5 or an Audi RS4. Damn quick, incredible handling, and you can use them every day.

Sorry, nothing in the world will ever convince me that the Americans make great cars. The Vette and the GT are the only exceptions. Two cars. Any others? ;) Ah, hang on, did you catch who designed the GT and where the parts come from?
 

McQueen

Well-known member
GT was designed by J Mays(Art Center,Ca)and Camilo Pardo(College of Creative Studies,MI).Parts are sourced from everywhere just like the Exige(Toyota,Eibach,Brembo etc.)Thats the way most car biz operate these days.Tell me a British (or French)owned car company that sells to the North American market.None! People just had to many problems with them.Remember Sterling? Mclaren F1(never sold here,German owned again)is a awesome design,that is one of my all time favorites.But the Ford can do 90% of its envelope, but costs about a 1/10th of what a used Mclaren sells for.Yeah,I know the German cars are great(and stupid expensive)and have driven on the autobahn a bunch of times.Sometimes sh*t,like Fiat,Vauxhall and Opel.There's crap to be had everywhere.
 

McQueen

Well-known member
You forgot SAAB,another GM product and if you drop $200 large on a Ferrari,you just filled FIAT's coffers!Volvo also makes a fine FORD.
 
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