Go Back   b-roll.net FORUM > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-09-2011, 12:07 AM
Baltimore's Finest Fotog Baltimore's Finest Fotog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 477
Baltimore's Finest Fotog is on a distinguished road
Default Financial Pressures Force NPPA's Hand

Gosh, I hate to do this, but I have to start a thread about the NPPA. I've always backed them and will continue to, seeing how I serve as a regional chairperson; but I am growing increasingly frustrated with the apparent lack of support for the TV side.

http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/t...er-entry-fees/

Re: Best of Photojournalism 2011

"Despite chatter that the TV category would be cut, Elliot said no categories are being eliminated."

The fact that there is even chatter on this, disturbs me. Maybe many of you won't agree with me on this, but I really look forward to this contest each year, because I think, on the whole, there are a lot of great, talented participants.

I could go on and on about all the seemingly anti-TV things that I perceive, but I won't...for now.
__________________
"The photographer must become one with the lens because it is through the lens that he sees life." ~ Bob Brandon, 1946 - 2009

"I don't know much 'bout cards, but I think these 4 5s beat that full house." ~ Omar Little (The Wire)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-09-2011, 01:55 AM
svp's Avatar
svp svp is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,974
svp is on a distinguished road
Default

I'm going to refrain from the usual NPPA bashing. However, what is the logic in considering cutting the video part of the contest at a time when video is growing online and all the still guys are having to learn video? If anything, I'd expect the still category to get cut and force those guys to move further to video. Just my thoughts.
__________________
www.svprovideo.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-09-2011, 09:11 AM
cyndygreen's Avatar
cyndygreen cyndygreen is offline
Member
Cyndy Green
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 729
cyndygreen is on a distinguished road
Default

If there is a convergence...if print (and frankly everyone else) is doing video, then perhaps we should re-name ALL of the contests. Best still (frame) breaking news, best video breaking news, and so on...

Rather than TV being peeled away, somehow visual journalists need to come together.
__________________
"Those who lose dreaming are lost."
Australian Aboriginal saying
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-09-2011, 09:37 AM
dhart's Avatar
dhart dhart is offline
PRO user
Dennis Hart
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,317
dhart is on a distinguished road
Default

I've never belonged to NPPA, even when I worked news, but as far as I'm concerned b-roll.net is a damn fine place for news photogs and freelancers to get together to exchange ideas and information. Never been much into entering contests, but hey, to each their own. I'm sure Kevin would love it if you all "donated" your NPPA dues to him :-)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-09-2011, 12:13 PM
Latin Lens's Avatar
Latin Lens Latin Lens is offline
Member
Ozkar Palomo
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,500
Latin Lens is on a distinguished road
Default

There must be something I am missing about the NPPA. I have defended the worthiness of this organization as a good learning tool for young and experienced photogs. I have volunteered my time as a mentor as well as writing for the magazine. I support the core mission statement of this organization and what it tries to achieve. However with that said, yes, I have seen the TV membership dewindle. Partly because the cost goes up and stations no longer pay for the staff to join. This is a out-of-pocket expense many TV guys are not willing to pay especially as the dues rise.

The question always comes back to..."Whats in it for the TV guys?". The organization clearly is dominated by the still folks but what am I missing that the top people don't seem to address the issue of increasing the TV side ranks...especially now. When newspapers are turning to shooting video for their website. Video. Yes they shoot video now...we shoot video and we still can't or don't seem to get along. What am I missing? Can someone tell me? Its frustrating to see all this. Its a good organization in theory put its falling apart in practice.

I've said before..."radical but rational" should prevail here to save the organization and increase the members on the TV side. All options need to be examined. I am not a part of what goes on behind close doors to know what the root of the problem is. Enlightened us and maybe some "radical but rational" ideas could prevail.
__________________
YouTube Channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/PhotogOzkar?feature=mhee

"FOX news channel.......NOT for the squimish."--Ozkar Palomo

"ACTION may tell the story, but REACTION makes it memorable"--THE David Wertheimer
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Chicago Dog's Avatar
Chicago Dog Chicago Dog is offline
Member
There's no ketchup on a Chicago dog!
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,152
Chicago Dog is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltimore's Finest Fotog View Post
I've always backed them and will continue to, seeing how I serve as a regional chairperson; but I am growing increasingly frustrated with the apparent lack of support for the TV side.
I started saying that same thing and was vilified in just about every NPPA post I contributed to. Be careful how you vent your frustrations; many rabid supporters can't read past the text on the screen.

As far as the topic goes, I'm not really surprised. The membership fee is high but the payoff is little. It was only a matter of time before the scales began to tip.

What bothered me about the article is the lack of obvious questions:

Quote:
Executive Director Mindy Hutchison said by e-mail that membership has been flat over the last year — about 6,500 — but it dropped significantly in the two previous years. Hutchison’s predecessor, Jim Straight, told me in 2009 that membership had declined 10 to 20 percent from the year before.

However, Hutchison said membership has trended upward in the past few months.
How has it "trended upward?" Declination of 10 to 20 percent is a big deal. To follow it up with a "trend upward in the past few months" doesn't really say much. That could be any number.

Quote:
Meanwhile, revenue from other sources, such as advertising in the monthly News Photographer magazine, is down. Producing the magazine costs a lot, Elliot said, but people consider it one of the key benefits of membership.
How much is "a lot?"

If the NPPA is going to make cuts because of financial hardship, is membership cost going to drop? Why should members have to continue to pay high costs in membership fees if sales teams can't find advertisers for the magazine?

It seems only logical that member fees drop in order to attract new members.
__________________
.
"We don't need TVs! We can just use windows! Sit by the window, watching the local news unfold, 24/7, in high definition, and 3D!"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-09-2011, 03:26 PM
svp's Avatar
svp svp is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,974
svp is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Meanwhile, revenue from other sources, such as advertising in the monthly News Photographer magazine, is down. Producing the magazine costs a lot, Elliot said, but people consider it one of the key benefits of membership.
Members are the only ones reading this magazine. Its not like its on the stands at the local grocery store or Wal-Mart. So a decline in membership means a decline in readers which means advertisers expect to pay less per ad. Of course ad revenue for the magazine is going to drop.

The NPPA seems focused on keeping its still guys as members at the expense of the tv guys. The problem with that is video is the area that is growing and is the area with the most potential for membership growth. I think the direction the NPPA is going is the exact opposite of where it needs to go.
__________________
www.svprovideo.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-09-2011, 03:26 PM
At the scene At the scene is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 376
At the scene is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latin Lens View Post
I have seen the TV membership dewindle. Partly because the cost goes up and stations no longer pay for the staff to join. This is a out-of-pocket expense many TV guys are not willing to pay especially as the dues rise.
This is true and most stations not all but most, just do not care about quality anymore. I no longer work in news because of that reason and left the NPPA because of that same reason. I watched while my old station trained reporters for 1 hr how to shoot and they came back with awful looking video and no one cared. I watched an NPPA station turn into a factory of 3 different stories a day for 5,6,and 7pm. I watched producers being trained to edit in 1hr and wonder why there are black holes in video on a daily bases. I watched as photogs were told to stop setting up lights there is no time for that or you are spending to much time shooting b-roll. This wasn't a small market, were talking top 20.

I was there when the NPPA pushed for quality work. Our station had NPPA seminars we invited Boyd Hupert and Jonthan Malet to our station and all the managers came in to watch how to marry reporting with photography and loved it. We would sponser NPPA courses. Now that's all changed, ask yourself a simple question. Are the stories you are doing now better than the stories you did 5-8 yrs ago. I can honestly say noway! So why would I want to spend $110.00 for the subpar product that we call news today.

This is just my experience, I am sure that we all have had different reasons why we dropped the NPPA membership.




.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-09-2011, 03:32 PM
svp's Avatar
svp svp is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,974
svp is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by At the scene View Post
This is true and most stations not all but most, just do not care about quality anymore. I no longer work in news because of that reason and left the NPPA because of that same reason. I watched while my old station trained reporters for 1 hr how to shoot and they came back with awful looking video and no one cared. I watched an NPPA station turn into a factory of 3 different stories a day for 5,6,and 7pm. I watched producers being trained to edit in 1hr and wonder why there are black holes in video on a daily bases. I watched as photogs were told to stop setting up lights there is no time for that or you are spending to much time shooting b-roll. This wasn't a small market, were talking top 20.

I was there when the NPPA pushed for quality work. Our station had NPPA seminars we invited Boyd Hupert and Jonthan Malet to our station and all the managers came in to watch how to marry reporting with photography and loved it. We would sponser NPPA courses. Now that's all changed, ask yourself a simple question. Are the stories you are doing now better than the stories you did 5-8 yrs ago. I can honestly say noway! So why would I want to spend $110.00 for the subpar product that we call news today.

This is just my experience, I am sure that we all have had different reasons why we dropped the NPPA membership..
Think of stations approach to news photography like buying a car. Stations used to go for the high end new Corvettes / SUV's / Hummers / etc but now are fine with buying old used Gremlins and Pintos that barely run and aren't safe for the road. The NPPA is the maintenance shop for the high end cars and there just isn't any business anymore.
__________________
www.svprovideo.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-09-2011, 03:45 PM
micaelb micaelb is offline
PRO user
Mike Borland
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 385
micaelb is on a distinguished road
Default

Let me say first and foremost, that cutting, as in ending, the TV Best of Photojournalism Contest was never considered. Cuts were made in the cost of the contest. The final judging will still be done by a small group of judges who will watch entries then discuss them then name a winner. The number of stories they see will be whittled down from the total number before they arrive at the Workshop.

The money spent on the TV contest is much higher per TV member than the cost of the still contest per still member. There was tremendous support at the board meeting for keeping the nature of the judging, the in-person as a small group aspect of the judging. That's an expensive way to judge but it's still gonna be done that way.

How do we increase TV numbers? I happen to think it's done by making the NPPA more grass-roots. More accessible. Can that be done and will it work? We'll see.

I think there is a difference in how TV and Still photographers view the NPPA in that many still members look at membership as a point of pride. They are proud to do what they do for a living and they are proud to be members. They are also proud to pay out of their own pockets to be a member. Not all of them. Some.

I'm not sure many TV members feel that way. I think some feel that because their employer paid their dues for years that they shouldn't have to pay now that the station isn't paying. Or they were only members because it was free to them. They might not keep their membership because they're mad it isn't paid for even if they can afford it!

There is a membership drive on now. The incentive? Recruit 10 members and yours is free. Again, we'll see!
__________________
Mike Borland
Chief Photojournalist
WHO-TV
NPPA Past President
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-09-2011, 03:53 PM
svp's Avatar
svp svp is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,974
svp is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by micaelb View Post
How do we increase TV numbers? I happen to think it's done by making the NPPA more grass-roots. More accessible. Can that be done and will it work? We'll see.

I think there is a difference in how TV and Still photographers view the NPPA in that many still members look at membership as a point of pride. They are proud to do what they do for a living and they are proud to be members. They are also proud to pay out of their own pockets to be a member. Not all of them. Some.

I'm not sure many TV members feel that way.
Maybe because the TV guys feel like the red-headed stepchild to the still guys because of how we're treated by the NPPA. Nearly everything done by the NPPA is geared or catored toward the still guys. Everyone knows it and everyone sees it. Any attempt to provide a little initiative toward TV is met with grumblings by the still guys and the NPPA immediately changes course to please the spoiled brats in the room. How else do you explain someone other than a tv professional with years of experience teaching the still guys video??? There, I said it. TV guys are not treated as equals to the still guys, yet we're required to pay the same dues, so why should we have pride in being members of an organization that looks down on us??? I personally think the NPPA needs to split into two seperate organizations, one for stills and one for tv/video.

When I first got into tv news, I was all gung ho about the NPPA and was excited about being a member. Then, reality set in. Got the magazine each month and rarely saw anything in it that had to do with my profession. In addition, the only benefit I saw to it was the workshop and airborne/short course seminars (which I attended) but had to pay an absurd amount to attend on top of the ridiculous membership dues. Even the contests were a sham. The judging is so subjective and there are no set standards for judging. What one person thinks is great, another can think is crap with no guidelines for that judging other than they didn't like it. I won a BOP award a few years ago and do you know what that means? NOTHING. It means somewhere along the line someone liked it even though I didn't think it was good enough to win.

There are so many photographers out there entering stories in contests that shouldn't be entered. Why? They get sent to a story and have to turn it by 10 or 11pm, then stick around (off the clock) and spend two to three hours to re-edit a version for the morning show just so they can enter that version in a contest. That is in no way indicitive of their abilities as a news photographer under normal deadline pressure. Anybody can turn those stories with unlimited time. Stories we should be judging are the first version that airs from the moment you shoot the first frame of video. The contests rules say no re-editing. However, I have never seen an aircheck submitted for judging. Its no secret that re-editing is going on all the time and it just gets looked over because some of the very people who have control of these contests know they themselves have probably been guilty of re-editing for a contest at some point in their careers.
__________________
www.svprovideo.com

Last edited by svp; 02-09-2011 at 05:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-09-2011, 04:49 PM
Teddy Teddy is offline
Banned
Teddy
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 198
Teddy is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

It's not good times for any business when they are forced to cut services, but especially bad at a time when people are compaining about overpriced services in the first palce. I hope the NPPA isn't entering a death spiral. Even though the house has apparently burned down, there is still a solid foundation there to be re-build upon.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-09-2011, 06:12 PM
ShootingStacks's Avatar
ShootingStacks ShootingStacks is offline
Member
Leighton Grant
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 58
ShootingStacks is on a distinguished road
Default

I think people's view of the NPPA reflects the overall view of our industry in general! Most have had to adapt to the changes....Poytner...RTNDA...etc! The NPPA is just starting to adapt! We can't freak out! We must change too! We need to help them out! Volunteer...mentor... advocate! Like someone said before, it used to be a source of pride to be a member, well I believe that. It gives my work more meaning. If you saw a story that opened your eyes to a new way of telling stories and asked "where did that come from?" If the answer was the NPPA, then the organization is still very much alive! I think people like Kyle are the reason we TV guys even still exist in the organization! The NPPA will eventually get it right, but it might take some time!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-09-2011, 07:27 PM
JoeyO38's Avatar
JoeyO38 JoeyO38 is offline
Member
Joseph O'Neill
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 180
JoeyO38 is on a distinguished road
Default

Michael-

Would you consider a buy one-get one free membership deal? I just started at a station that pays for 50% of NPPA membership cost. There are 10 people shooting here that have never been NPPA members before. However, I don't think they are interested in paying any money out-of-pocket. I think it is a deal worth considering, even if it is a one year start-up discount.

Joe
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-09-2011, 08:32 PM
Brock Samson's Avatar
Brock Samson Brock Samson is offline
PRO user
Danny Rogers
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 839
Brock Samson is on a distinguished road
Default

Where is all of the money going? It's some kind of a non-profit, so does that mean that the books are available to members? I don't know anything about that kind of stuff, but what in the world is eating up all of the money?
__________________
"If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly!!"
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-09-2011, 10:28 PM
eb eb is offline
Member
Eric Blumer
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 888
eb is on a distinguished road
Default

A couple things:

When the new "web" video categories were being written for the NPPA national contest, we talked at length about why a separate category is needed .... for "them."

As you can see, there are two separate video journalism contests. That dilutes the quality of the winners, I believe.

One thing always stood out for me. It's about the viewers, and its about the story the viewers are watching. It's not about us, or where we work. Viewers do not care, and do not know who shot what, or what format they used, or where it is "supposed" to be viewed.

Video journalism, my friends... is about video. And journalism. Two things, and two things ONLY. Period. That is the one thing the NPPA contests... have gotten away from, I believe, and now it's back up for discussion. What should be judged and why? The stories should be judged. All video journalism stories together. Spot news - doesn't matter what camera a person used.... viewers want to see the story. The best story should be awarded... not whether or not the person worked at such and such a TV station, or such and such a newspaper... or was a one man band either in my humble opinion. Viewers don't care.

Viewers watch the story. Judge the story.

Divide categories the same as usual.... in 12 / 24 / 48 hour divisions / indepth / spot news / general news / features / documentary / in depth. That system worked well.

Now, the NPPA has so many divisions (pardon the pun) and categories and rules and regulations and pools and tiers... not to mention the separation of EDITING contest... which are for full time editors only? Again... why? Viewers don't care if a donkey edited the story... The story should be judged... When the NPPA created separate contests for full time editors only.... I could see the problem: I am a full time photog. But I couldn't enter my edited story? That is a contest for "people" --- not for "stories." Backaswards.

Contests should be about the work... not the worker. Judge how good the video journalism is.... Don't judge whether or not you are a full time night side one man band editor who works at a newspaper 3/4ths of the day and McDonalds at night.

Just like the federal government in my opinion.... take a perfectly good constitution and start interpreting it, adding layers, beauracracy, regulations nobody understands, and what is the result? A massive failure. Sorry for that analogy... but let's get back to basics.

Keep it simple.

The reason, I think, so many new levels and rules were layered on the contests is because so many people wanted to make the contest easier for the "regular" photographer to win... and therefore enter and compete... Did that work? Don't get me wrong. I want to see what the best stories done in a slam are... and I respect those winners. My point is...however, that problems arise when you create contest categories for "people" and not for "stories. My opinion is that the NPPA should keep it simple, cut down the video journalism categories back to where it used to be (4 for quarterlies and about 6-10 for ALL national video categories.) That makes it tougher to win and therefore more respectable to win... and therefore more people want a piece of it. Once you start to liberalize the contest, then you start to dilute the winners...

We have all seen it in different contests... few entries and lower quality winners. There are a number of contests... the NPPA needs to focus on video journalism.

Please don't read this wrong. I am only trying to be a constructive critic.... (like a judge, get it?) Criticism helps photographers get better. The NPPA needs to listen to critics. I was once on the board and also on the contest committee, but not recently. I support the good the NPPA does... and will continue to because there are many good things.

The video categories need to be combined into a STRONGER competition... where all video journalists - put their best stories in and are judged together, as a viewer watched them.

This separation between TV and Still is ridiculous in the video contest area. All video journalism should be judged against each other. That would raise the bar.

Another thing: The main reason there is a bigger separation from still and TV... should be clear...

Years ago, TV news was much different. We were given LOTS of time to put together in depth stories and features. We travelled A LOT. Quality was a HUGE competitive area. For many, things have changed dramatically.... and the NPPA is simply NOT TO BLAME for this change.

Television news has gone "production." We (at my station) have a "brand." And it is NOT long form video journalism with a beginning, middle, end, and natural sounds and moments. It is mostly video PRODUCTION. We want active. We want LIVE (yes, for the sake of live, get used to it.) We want urgency. We want emotion. Reporter Involvement. Graphics, Teases, Spot news, News of the Day. Did I say LIVE?

And that, my friends, is not the NPPA. Video production / local TV news is not - in general - video journalism that captures natural moments, storytelling....which is what the NPPA is all about. I would much rather be a video journalist, and take advantage of any opportunity I get... but as I said, TV news simply is not video journalism.

In summary (loud applause) I think the attempts to cater the NPPA contests - to the "many" different niches, has not worked... and will not work... unless two things change:

1.) The NPPA changes its mission to represent "production." ( I don't think it should change.)

or

2.) More TV News managers ask for video journalism storytelling and support the NPPA. (this would be great)

Some of this does happen... but as you can see by the numbers.... not very much, and its diminishing. Perhaps more video journalists will participate in the NPPA contests.... but unless the two contests merge... the TV side will continue to lose.

To be honest, however, I have no idea what the numbers of entries are for the TV contests. Hopefully they are up. If they are down... I would quickly adopt the changes I stated.

Last edited by eb; 02-09-2011 at 10:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:18 PM
Chicago Dog's Avatar
Chicago Dog Chicago Dog is offline
Member
There's no ketchup on a Chicago dog!
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,152
Chicago Dog is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Samson View Post
Where is all of the money going? It's some kind of a non-profit, so does that mean that the books are available to members? I don't know anything about that kind of stuff, but what in the world is eating up all of the money?
I keep asking the same thing, but my questions are either completely blown off or dismissed as "caustic circular attacks."

I suspect the reason we never hear a break-down of membership dues is because most of the $110 paid by a video member is gobbled up by nothing relating to video. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb View Post
We have all seen it in different contests... few entries and lower quality winners. There are a number of contests... the NPPA needs to focus on video journalism.
Your post raises some good points, but I think this is one of the best.

I remember contests in which some categories actually listed first, second, and third as "not awarded." The entries in those categories weren't up to par. Seriously -- the explanation in such a category was: "though there were a substantial number of entries, no entries were worthy of an award."

I hate to say it, but I think NPPA probably added more categories, dropped standards, and issued more awards in an effort to drum up membership. As you so eloquently pointed out, eb: I think it's biting them in the ass.

Either that, or we've got judges that are more worried about hurting feelings than they are being the hardasses our profession so desperately needs.
__________________
.
"We don't need TVs! We can just use windows! Sit by the window, watching the local news unfold, 24/7, in high definition, and 3D!"

Last edited by Chicago Dog; 02-09-2011 at 11:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:32 PM
1911A1's Avatar
1911A1 1911A1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 753
1911A1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by micaelb View Post
How do we increase TV numbers? I happen to think it's done by making the NPPA more grass-roots. More accessible. Can that be done and will it work? We'll see.

If that's what you want to do, then you're going to have to find some way to lower the membership fee. It's as simple as that.

$110 is a lot of scratch for a young television news photographer to come up with to join an organization that, increasingly, offers very little to that photographer.

Hell, I didn't join until 1995 (after I got a job at a station that paid for memberships) because, prior to that, $50 just wasn't in my budget at the time.
__________________
Television consultants should be hunted like the buffalo and their hides hung on the station fence as a warning to others.

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:37 PM
ShootingStacks's Avatar
ShootingStacks ShootingStacks is offline
Member
Leighton Grant
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 58
ShootingStacks is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Dog View Post
Either that, or we've got judges that are more worried about hurting feelings than they are being the hardasses our profession so desperately needs.
Are there any real old school managers left in the biz?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:39 PM
ShootingStacks's Avatar
ShootingStacks ShootingStacks is offline
Member
Leighton Grant
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 58
ShootingStacks is on a distinguished road
Default

The numbers are down for regular photographers, but up for our Solo Video Contest in the Quarterlies!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1996-2009 b-roll.net

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:48 AM.