Obama vs McCain, it already over

[Grip]

And lets see what these two are doing with their time in politics:

I would rather have a president that will support the troops, and Obama has clearly been there for the troops while all McCain can do is try to sign them up for the next 100yrs.

Yeah I want a president that is reluctant to send people to war, but if they have to go, will support them. Take a look at McCains voting record vs Obama's.

Voting Records Dont Lie

Obama Voted For And McCain Voted Against $360 Million for Armored Vehicles for Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. [HR 2863, Vote 248, 10/5/05, Passed 56-43: R 13-42 D 42-1 I 1-0]

Obama Voted TWICE Against And McCain Voted TWICE For And Keeping Capital Gains Tax Cuts, Rather Than Using the Savings to Replace or Repair Equipment for Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Passed 44-53: R 1-52 D 42-1 I 1-0; HR 4297, Vote 18, 2/14/06, Failed 45-55: R 1-54 D 43-1 I 1-0]

McCain Voted Against Providing An Additional $322 Million for Troops� Safety Equipment, Including Body Armor. [S 1689, Vote 376, 10/2/03, Passed 49-37: R 46-0 D 2-37 I 1-0; National Journal�s CongressDaily, 10/3/03]

McCain Opposed $1 Billion For Equipment For National Guard. In 2003, McCain opposed providing $1 billion for equipment for the National Guard and Reserves. [S 762, Vote 116, 4/2/03, Passed 52-47: R 51-0 D 1-46 I 0-1]

MCCAIN REPEATEDLY VOTED AGAINST INCREASES AND OBAMA VOTED FOR INCREASE FOR VETERANS HEALTH CARE BENEFITS

Obama Voted For And McCain Voted Against Increasing Funding For Military And Veterans Hospitals By Limiting Dividend And Capital Gains Tax Cuts To Individuals Earning Less Than $1 Million.[HR 4297, Vote 7, Failed 44-53: R 1-52; D 42-1 (ND 38-1, SD 4-0); I 1-0; 2/2/06]

Obama Voted For And McCain Voted Against Adding Nearly Half-A-Billion Dollars In Funding For Veterans Health Care In Wake Of $1.2 Billion Shortfall. In 2006, Obama voted for and McCain voted against adding $430 million for outpatient and inpatient health care and treatment for veterans. [HR 4939, Vote 98, 4/26/06, Passed 84-13, D 41-0; R 42-13; I 1-0; The Independent Budget, A Budget for Veterans by Veterans, 2/10/06; Newsweek, 1/19/06]

Obama Voted For And McCain Voted Against Making Veterans� Health Benefits A Mandatory Spending Program And Avoiding Future Budget Shortfalls. In 2006, Obama voted for and McCain voted against an amendment that would make veterans� health benefits a mandatory program, spending $104 billion over five years. The funding would have been offset by closing corporate tax loopholes and rolling back the Bush tax cuts for millionaires. [SCR 83, Vote 63, 3/16/06, Failed 46-54, D:43-1, R:2-53, I:1-0]

Obama Voted For And McCain Voted Against Increasing VA Health Care By $1.5 Billion; Amendment Was Paid For By Ending Corporate Tax Breaks. In 2006, Obama voted for and McCain voted against an amendment that increased the discretionary spending limit by $1.5 billion to $874.5 billion to provide an increase in funding for veterans� medical services. It would be offset by ending certain corporate tax breaks. [Vote 41, SCR 83, 3/14/2006, Failed 46-54: R 1-54; D 44-0; I 1-0]

Obama Voted For And McCain Voted Against An Amendment To Increase Veterans� Health Care Funding By $2B. In 2005, Obama voted for and McCain voted against increasing funding for the Veterans Affairs Department by $1.98 billion and designate it as emergency spending. It would stipulate that $840 million be used for veterans� regional health networks; $610 million be used to address the needs of service members deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan; and $525 million be used to provide mental health care and treatment. [Vote 90, HR 1268, Failed: 46-54: R 1-54; D 44-0; I 1-0, 4/12/05; Vote 89, HR 1268, R 1-54, D 44-0, I 1-0, 4/12/05]

Obama Supported And McCain Opposed And Increasing Funding for Veterans Mental Health Services. In 2005, Obama voted for and McCain voted against providing an additional $500 million per year for five years for veterans� mental health services. The cost of the proposal would have been offset by deferring tax cuts for those making $1 million a year. [S 2020, Vote 343, 11/17/05; Failed 43-55: R 1-53; D 41-2; I 1-0]


Any idiot can send people to war, or start a fight. And while I respect his service to country, I wont admire him for being a POW, last time I checked, you arent supposed to get caught. And you right wingers who like to talk tough and toss out the fear mongering. If we were really in some big war against the forces of evil shouldnt there be some kind of plan, and end game. How could you not grasp the concept of strategy. Who plays chess with the plan that winning might take a hundred years. Furthermore this whole war in the middle east crap is like trying to play chess on a monopoly board.

[pre-set]

Originally Posted by Grip

... and Obama has clearly been there for the troops .....

But when he found out he couldn't use the wounded ones for a photo-op or campaign ad, he decided to go shopping instead.

Nice.

[Foxwood]

Pre-Set,

I'll call BS on that.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200807300011

[Grip]

ohhhhhh

I see

you guys cant stick up for Bush...... other than fear mongering by Go Daddy

and now you are afraid to stick up for McCain


I love how you keep saying he doesnt have experience, but I see plenty of votes up above.

So puuuleeeassse tell me how McCain supports the troops some more.

Cowards,

[Jax]

Originally Posted by pre-set

But when he found out he couldn't use the wounded ones for a photo-op or campaign ad, he decided to go shopping instead.

Nice.

And you would be bitching if he went, calling it a campaign stop... The right is so transparent -- the campaign slogan should be "No New Ideas!!!"

[pre-set]

Originally Posted by Foxwood

Pre-Set,

I'll call BS on that.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200807300011

Media Matters is not an acceptable reference. Sorry, try again.

[Lost in Alaska]

I really don't care too much either way 'right now' but it is nice that someone found the voting records for both of them.

Thanks for that part, Grip.

[pre-set]

Originally Posted by Grip

And while I respect his service to country, I wont admire him for being a POW, last time I checked, you arent supposed to get caught.

Somehow I missed this line in my first reading of your silly Democrat Underground cut-n-paste job...


"I won't admire him for being a POW, last time I checked, you aren't supposed to get caught"


I cannot even communicate how childish, insensitive, misinformed, petty, ugly and ignorant that statement is. I can't believe you could actually write that. I'm almost at a loss for words. It's like something a 10 year old punk would say about Halo 2...

Aside from having never served in the Armed Forces, you lack even the most fundemental understanding of the kind of personal sacrifice that people who do serve are willing to make for their fellow citizens. It's almost as if you have an open, seething contempt for those willing to do what you yourself weren't.

I think you should spend some time reflecting about what that means, and why you should be ashamed of making such an assinine statement.


I think you should apologize to everyone here you offended with such an ignorant utterance.
















And I don't want to drag McCain into this and confuse the issue. I'm speaking about veterans and POW's in particular. For the record, I'm not a fan of the Senator, but I do have the utmost respect for the sacrifices he made while serving his country.

[SimonW]

At least you guys get to have an election. Our guy has superglue on his arse to keep him in the big chair.

[Wideangle]

I cannot even communicate how childish, insensitive, misinformed, petty, ugly and ignorant that statement is. I can't believe you could actually write that. I'm almost at a loss for words. It's like something a 10 year old punk would say about Halo 2...

Aside from having never served in the Armed Forces, you lack even the most fundemental understanding of the kind of personal sacrifice that people who do serve are willing to make for their fellow citizens. It's almost as if you have an open, seething contempt for those willing to do what you yourself weren't.

I think you should spend some time reflecting about what that means, and why you should be ashamed of making such an assinine statement.


I think you should apologize to everyone here you offended with such an ignorant utterance. Pre-set

Aren't we the self-appointed holier than thou defender of McCain. Look, the guy is running for POTUS. EVERYTHING is open to discussion. INCLUDING his war record.
Here's some info I'm sure you will discredit but of course never be able to rebute
with any facts...

Most of the major media outlets find it impossible to publish a story about McCain which doesn’t include the phrase “war hero” in it somewhere. If you know anything about John McCain, it’s that he’s a war hero. But is he?

McCain’s reputation as a war hero rests on the sum total of 20 hours in combat. That’s right. McCain spent only 20 hours in combat in the entire war. He flew 23 missions. He got 28 medals. In other words, he got more medals than he had missions. Not bad. It should be noted that none of McCain’s medals related to anything he did in combat. They were given for the supposed bravery he displayed after he had been shot down and captured.

It’s appropriate to ask whether McCain’s shoot-down was caused by bad luck or simple incompetence on his part. Of course, there is no way to answer definitively. But we can form an assessment based on the rest of McCain’s military record. At the Naval Academy, McCain graduated almost bottom of his class. He was 790th out of 795. McCain lost many aircraft over the course of his military career – five in total. Most pilots who lost aircraft at the rate McCain did would have been kicked out of the service. But McCain had protection from up on high. His father was an admiral. He was an untouchable. So McCain blundered his way through his military career until he was finally shot down.

McCain claims that he was tortured while in custody. There were no other American witnesses to this torture and some former POWs doubt that it happened at all. In fact, McCain himself admitted in a 1973 interview with the magazine US News and World Report that he volunteered to give military information in return for medical treatment, even before being subjected to any torture.

There are two ways to look at the torture claims. Either McCain is lying about it – in which case he’s unfit to be president; or he’s telling the truth – in which case he’s unfit to be president. Why? Because torture is one of those experiences, like being abused as a child, which inflicts permanent psychological damage.

Many of America’s veterans from the Korean and Vietnamese wars suffered lingering psychological trauma from their wartime experience. The rate is even higher among former prisoners of war (POWs). One study found that 85% of POWs who had been tortured experienced Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Was McCain one of the 85% or was he one of the lucky 15%?

There is every reason to suspect that McCain suffered deep-seated psychological trauma while a prisoner of war. He himself says that he was “reduced to an animal” and “broken”. He signed confessions – “I am a black criminal and have performed the deeds of an air pirate” - and made broadcasts denouncing his own country and its actions in the war. In fact, so great was his propensity to tell his captors what they wanted to hear, that, in the camp, McCain acquired the name of “Songbird”.

Bear in mind that McCain’s medals were awarded for resisting torture. Yet where was the resistance? Perhaps it is this gulf between the perception and the reality of John McCain that explains why so many Vietnam veterans’ groups openly despise him. David Hackworth, a retired Army colonel with five years' distinguished service in Vietnam who is a frequent commentator on military affairs on network television, is a longtime critic of McCain. He tells Insight that McCain's actions during the Senate Select Committee hearings were a "flash point" with a lot of veterans. "McCain should turn off his handlers," says Hackworth, "because he's presenting himself in a very poor light. I have read hundreds of letters and e-mails from members of the military and there's no question that there is a keen divide when it comes to McCain. There are many who challenge his conduct when he was a POW."

In 1991, explains Hackworth, "I interviewed Col. Bui Tin in Hanoi, who was presented to me as their authority on POW/MIA issues. In the course of the interview Tin told me that during the war he was involved in the imprisonment of American POWs. When I questioned him further he said that John McCain was a `special prisoner.' Tin later told other POWs that McCain never was tortured. So when McCain embraced Tin during the hearings it seemed to some Vietnam vets to confirm the reports they had heard, and it really angered a lot of people. It was no secret that McCain had admitted to giving information to the enemy. In fact, McCain was given the Silver Star for `conspicuous gallantry' for the time period of 27 Oct. to 8 Dec. 1967 -- one day after he was shot down and admits to having given information to the enemy. McCain is a survivor, not a hero, and I don't think anyone in the history of our nation has been awarded such high military awards for dealing with the enemy."

You don’t have to subscribe to the fully-fledged “Manchurian Candidate” hypothesis to fear that the long term psychological effects of McCain’s imprisonment make him unfit to be president. In McCain’s own words from his book Flags of our Fathers “solitary confinement causes some mental deterioration in even the most resilient personalities”. McCain later admitted that he was so ashamed of his own capitulation that he tried to commit suicide twice. Psychologists who evaluated McCain upon his return said that he had grown used to living in a fantasy world. When the camp guards came with food, he “was often so much in his private world, that he strongly resented their coming around and bringing him back to reality by intruding. He was enjoying his fantasies so much.”

So did McCain suffer psychological damage from his experience? To answer this, we’d need full access to McCain’s medical records, including the psychological evaluations he was subjected to after returning from Vietnam. Unfortunately, that access has never been granted. During his previous unsuccessful run for the presidency, the McCain campaign allowed only a few select journalists to briefly have access to a partial and redacted version of McCain’s medical history.

For years McCain has been known for his powder keg temper. Many people, including even his own Republican colleagues, have seen the dark side of the man, which tends to manifest itself in the form of an almost hysterical anger, as he shouts and curses at those he disagrees with. Sometimes, McCain returns afterwards to apologize for his outbursts, showing that he had lost control of himself. Passion is no doubt commendable in a presidential candidate. But is that all it is? It seems much more likely that his angry bursts of temper are really manifestations of the lingering psychological fractures he suffered in the Vietnam war. Does America really need an unstable, psychologically stressed “war hero” to have his finger on the nuclear button?

I guess in "your world" its OK to trash Sen. Kerry and his war record, but when it comes to McCain...it's total hands off...You can't have it both ways.

[Foxwood]

Pre-set,

The Media Matters article is well researched and sourced with multiple links to NBC and ABC News reporting. In a separate article, ABC states that Cindy McCain was refused a similar visit to the Hospital Ship USS Comfort for the same reason a week earlier. The GOP Hoot and Grunt club must have missed that one.

[Grip]

Originally Posted by pre-set

Somehow I missed this line in my first reading of your silly Democrat Underground cut-n-paste job...

Yeah you seem to miss a lot of stuff, most of the time its the basic stuff too, like facts and information.

Originally Posted by pre-set

Aside from having never served in the Armed Forces, you lack even the most fundemental understanding of the kind of personal sacrifice that people who do serve are willing to make for their fellow citizens. It's almost as if you have an open, seething contempt for those willing to do what you yourself weren't.

What the hell do you know, I have served my country more than you, I know that much. Do you even understand the English language, how do you use the terms "personal sacrifice" to reference someone that took the easy way out giving up and giving away information that could lead to the death of his fellow service men.

And I love your mamby pamby cry baby act... ooohh how could you...boo hoo the humanity of it all, stop the insanity, my pre-set vagina is hurting because someone questioned McCains claim to be a hero. Yet it was ok to attack Kerry.

You GOP twunts must be born hypocrites.

Originally Posted by pre-set

I think you should spend some time reflecting about what that means, and why you should be ashamed of making such an assinine statement.

oh yeah I did a lot of reflecting, and let me tell ya...... McCain is still an old fool and doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell.

And I love how all you can say about McCains voting record, towards real vets and the men the are currently serving, is that I must have cut and pasted the information. Way to put your tail between your legs, piss on the floor and run away from an issue like a little chihuahua. Like one of those rat dogs... you are just sitting there shaking afraid of the issues, afraid to face McCains, or Bush's record.

So all you really got is..."Obama is young"

good luck with that

[pre-set]

Originally Posted by Grip

What the hell do you know, I have served my country more than you, I know that much. Do you even understand the English language, how do you use the terms "personal sacrifice" to reference someone that took the easy way out giving up and giving away information that could lead to the death of his fellow service men.

............ Yet it was ok to attack Kerry.

First, I'll say it again since you seem to need to have things repeated to you over and over so as to effectively penetrate your thick skull....


1) I'm NOT a McCain supporter. Let's separate the candidate from the Naval Aviator for a minute, shall we? McCain is not a Conservative. I don't agree with a lot of things he's done and endorsed politically, and frankly, I don't think he's the guy/gal we need right now.

2) Now let's talk about McCain the veteran. Do you have any idea, any concept, of the kind of courage...no - sheer balls - it takes to climb into a jet, leave a carrier and fly your mission over the most heavily defended airspace in the history of aviation? Repeatedly... To have missles fired at you? To have one explode just feet away from you, forcing you to eject and parachute down into a hellish nightmare where (at best) you'll be beaten senseless many times over, humiliated, tortured brutally (not stacked in naked pyramids or water boarded), malnourished, and cut off from the world?

Because I can't imagine what that would be like. I think it would destroy ordinary people, if they even survived it in the first place.

As far as "giving up information"... Are you really that stupid? This isn't some old John Wayne movie, my ignorant friend. This is battery cables hooked up to your scrotum. Everyone talks. Period. The best a person can do under those circumstances is to try to hold out long enough to give your unit CO's a chance to change tactics or alter battle plans so as to render what you will inevitably tell them to be of little value.

Plus, junior officers and those particularly susceptable to enemy capture (like aviators) typically are not fully briefed on detailed strategic plans. They are focused on tactical operations - the day-to-day type stuff, and therefore are somewhat protected from knowing too much for the unit's good should they be captured. Not that this mattered much to the NVA, who happily beat the sh!t out him anyway...


Whatever you feel about him politically, you need to separate the two men. He endured things you and I (hopefully) will never comprehend. And for that reason alone, you should repsect him and the men (and the few women) like him.


3) I never critisized Senator Kerry for anything he did in Vietnam. The fact is, he was a PBR skipper, and that took big balls, too. I critisized Kerry for what he did after he got back...




So now convince me I'm wrong about you then.... What have you done?

[Wideangle]

As far as "giving up information"... Are you really that stupid? This isn't some old John Wayne movie, my ignorant friend. This is battery cables hooked up to your scrotum. Everyone talks. Period. The best a person can do under those circumstances is to try to hold out long enough to give your unit CO's a chance to change tactics or alter battle plans so as to render what you will inevitably tell them to be of little value. Preset

I'm sorry, preset, I didn't know you were there to witness all this in person.
Amazing what a 3 year old can remember!

[AKinDC]

When has McCain admitted he was wrong in a situation where it didn't help him politically?
From what I've observed, and I admit I haven't seen everything he's said, he only admits he's wrong when it helps distance himself from Bush, or in a situation where he has no other choice, i.e the Martin Luther King holiday issue.

[Alaska cameradude]

Wow, all the libs on here have convinced me. I'm voting for Obama now! Seriously though, does ANYONE seriously think this discussion will make someone say...'O ya, you were right and I was wrong. I'm switching my vote.'? The guy who wins will win because he gets more of 'his' guys out to vote on voting day. It WON'T be because he somehow 'reaches out' to the other side or somehow 'outdebates and convinces the other side to change their views'. McCain is a Republican and Obama is a Democrat. End of story. Now some conservatives may not like McCain, but do you really think they are going to vote for Obama? Hillary supporters may be pissed about losing to Obama, but do you really think they will vote for McCain? And I bet all the debating back and forth on internet forums is not going to change ANY of the votes of people who posted on this thread either!! In my eyes, the bigger issue, is that we have exactly ONE choice.....Obama or McCain and NOTHING else. I feel like a kid in school taking a multiple choice question....is it (a) or (b)? I keep looking for (c) None of the above!

[Wideangle]

Hey, Alaska dude, speaking of politics...whats up with your Uncle Ted up there?
Do people up there think he's innocent and it was a set up or what? I was kind of shocked when I was in Anchorage last summer and saw they had named the airport after him...while he was still alive! There's a real good reason why people wait till after someone is dead to
"honor" them. It's tough to "f**k up your reputation when you're six feet under!

[pre-set]

Originally Posted by AKinDC

When has McCain admitted he was wrong in a situation where it didn't help him politically?
From what I've observed, and I admit I haven't seen everything he's said, he only admits he's wrong when it helps distance himself from Bush, or in a situation where he has no other choice, i.e the Martin Luther King holiday issue.

There's that whole Keating 5 thing, remember. How he managed to skate through that I'll never understand.

[pre-set]

Originally Posted by Wideangle

I'm sorry, preset, I didn't know you were there to witness all this in person.
Amazing what a 3 year old can remember!

I guess I'll have to clarify for people as challenged as you....

No. I wasn't there. Everything I know about this subject is from secondhand knowledge. Knowledge, part of which, was imparted to me by men who were there and DID experience this, as part of the training I received almost 2 decades ago. I figured then, as I still do now, that I could trust what they were able to teach us.

[Wideangle]

svp, here's a interesting article about your guy McCain and his impact on your
Ohio....

McCain's criticism came before he was to travel to Wilmington to discuss possible job losses, as many as 8,000, from the proposed closure of a DHL shipping site, the result of a corporate merger aided by his campaign manager during his work as a lobbyist.

In 2003, McCain campaign manager Rick Davis lobbied Congress to accept a proposal by German-owned DHL to buy Airborne Express, which kept its domestic hub in Wilmington in southwest Ohio.

In announcing a restructuring plan in May, DHL said it planned to hire United Parcel Service to move some of its air packages, sending them through an airport in Louisville, Ky., and putting the Wilmington Air Park out of business.

Davis took a leave of absence from his lobbying practice to work for McCain, a self-styled reformer who asked his campaign staff to disclose all previous lobbying ties and make certain they were no longer registered as lobbyists or foreign agents.

The economy and job losses are important issues in Ohio, a critical swing state that gave President Bush the electoral votes needed for re-election in 2004.

McCain campaign spokesman Brian Rogers said Wednesday that Davis had not worked with DHL since 2005, long before DHL announced plans to move its work out of Wilmington. The companies merged in 2003.

"At the time of the merger, no one anticipated an impact on jobs in Wilmington," Rogers said.

McCain, as chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, had a role in the deal, too. He urged then-Senate Appropriations Committee Chairman Ted Stevens to abandon proposed legislation that would have prohibited foreign-owned carriers from flying U.S. military equipment or troops, which Airborne Express said was aimed at torpedoing its merger with DHL.

Rogers said McCain opposed the bill because it could have hurt the military's airlift capabilities in a time of war.

The DHL-Airborne deal ultimately went through, despite opposition from competitors UPS and FedEx, which argued that it would violate a ban on foreign control of domestic airlines. DHL is the U.S.-based shipping unit of German postal service Deutsche Post AG.

On Wednesday, Sen. Sherrod Brown, an Ohio Democrat and Obama supporter, called on McCain and Davis to use their past ties to DHL to urge the company not to move jobs out of Wilmington.

"John McCain through this whole thing has said zero about his connection to DHL," Brown said. "We need their help. I'm accusing them of indifference."

A task force of local and federal elected officials as well as business and labor leaders has been working to save the jobs.

"This is worthy of every presidential candidate's attention," Wilmington Mayor David Raizk said. "Whether it's a vote-changing issue or not, I think it might be a little too early to tell. It's a matter of making sure our situation here stays on the front burner."

During a campaign visit last month, Obama discussed the situation with Raizk and other officials and pledged to help if elected.

In a statement Wednesday, Ohio Republican Sen. George Voinovich called the situation "one of the worst job catastrophes that any community in this nation is facing" and said the involvement of both McCain and Obama indicated it merited global attention.

"We are going to need some involvement by the German government," Voinovich said.

DHL declined to comment.

Ohio is a general election battleground state, and rural southwest Ohio, where Wilmington is located, is a Republican stronghold. In 2004, Clinton County — which includes Wilmington — voted for Bush over Democrat John Kerry by more than 2-to-1, even though Bush narrowly won the state.

___

Associated Press writers James Hannah in Ohio and Sharon Theimer in Washington contributed to this report.

___