Sony FS7 and PMW200/300

Starman

Well-known member
Current clients that want XDCAM usually want an EX1/EX3, but often I have been renting a PMW350, and using my better HD lens plus batteries and support gear, so getting a little bit of a gear rental out of it. Point is sometimes the client brings SxS media. These are NBC Universal and corporate clients as well.

Considering a PMW300/200 1/2 inch camera in the near future, but also haven't discounted the Sony FS7. I have heard rumors that the FS7 will replace the EX3/EX1 type jobs in a lot of circles. Supposedly, a lot of programs may move toward large sensor acquisition. Both the PMW series and FS7 can shoot XDCAM format/codec, from reading the specs.

Does anyone have any experience or future predictions? Any trends you already see happening?
 

Douglas

Well-known member
The PMW-200/300 have been replaced with newer models so I would question the wisdom of investing in either of them unless you get a really good deal.

The FS7 is a great choice and very, very versatile with suoer35mm sensor, HD, 4K, XAVC, XDCAM, 180 fps slow motion, etc. -- except it doesn't use SxS cards. So if you have clients bringing their own cards, perhaps not a good choice for you.
 

cameragod

Well-known member
Hey Doug I have a client who wants to buy the FS7 and they asked me what lenses I’d recommend. They are doing a run and gun in and out of cars type thing. I’ve had a play with the Sony Kit lens but it’s not wide or long enough and to be honest the zoom speed and infinity focus ring would drive me nuts. I was thinking they needed two zoom lenses, one wide, one long and a prime 50 for IV’s to get started but I would love any advice on this.
 
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Necktie Boy

Well-known member
Hi CG,

Which Sony lenses where you testing? The Sony 28-135 doesn't has a not spinning iris and focus ring. It has hard stops.

Many will agree that the 28-135 isn't wide or long enough. There are plenty of threads about that. Rumor is that Sony will make a wide angle power zoom to match the 28-135.

For run and gun, some are using a Canon 24-105 with a speedbooster. For a normal lens on a Super35 is a 35mm. There are a few Canon Cine Zoom lenses that are perfect, but cost and weight may be too much.

As for a wide zoom, a 11-16 seems to popular. For the long side, I picked a Canon 100-300mm to test the water. It's a bit slow, but cost was cheap for testing. I know Doug had a Cine Red 300, but changed to a Canon 100 to 400mm. From another thread, Doug listed the lenses he has.

For lenses selection, it depends how deep their pockets are. If you read the Large Camera Sensor Thread, I asked about what lenses are being used.

As for me, one reason I like the "kit lens" is that it's a power zoom. It's not as fast nor zoom speed as an ENG lens, but at least a power zoom. Also, you will find that some Cine lenses are a few stops slower than an ENG lenses. It would be nice to have constant f2.8 lenses.

I have been testing the water with older Nikon still lenses. I do like the look of them. I mostly have primes since those are faster than the zooms.

I would say three zooms to cover a given range. Looking at Doug's list, he had three zooms that cover the range from 11 to 150mm.

Doug, I read the thread on the other board about what lenses to use. I hope you don't mind answering with your lens comments.
 

Douglas

Well-known member
Hey Doug I have a client who wants to buy the FS7 and they asked me what lenses I’d recommend. They are doing a run and gun in and out of cars type thing. I’ve had a play with the Sony Kit lens but it’s not wide or long enough and to be honest the zoom speed and infinity focus ring would drive me nuts. I was thinking they needed two zoom lenses, one wide, one long and a prime 50 for IV’s to get started but I would love any advice on this.
That's a tough topic to address for someone I don't know. But unless they have deep pockets, I think they should be looking at Canon lenses with a Metabones adapter. I do not use either of those myself because I have PL lenses, but if I didn't, I'd be looking at those. I prefer Nikon lenses over Canon lenses, but the focus ring turns the wrong direction and there's really no getting around issue -- so Canon lenses are a better choice for experieneced TV shooters.

As for focal length, I have no idea what lenses are in the Canon line-up, but a 18-50mm f/2.8 (or something close to that) would be ideal for most run and gun, with a 70-200 standing by. The FS7 will get center crop with firmware 3.0, so if they are not shooting 4K the 18-50 could do double duty as a 36-100mm f/2.8 as well.

BTW, a 50mm lens is not long enough for most interview setups.
 

Douglas

Well-known member
Hi CG,

Which Sony lenses where you testing? The Sony 28-135 doesn't has a not spinning iris and focus ring. It has hard stops.

Many will agree that the 28-135 isn't wide or long enough. There are plenty of threads about that. Rumor is that Sony will make a wide angle power zoom to match the 28-135.

For run and gun, some are using a Canon 24-105 with a speedbooster. For a normal lens on a Super35 is a 35mm. There are a few Canon Cine Zoom lenses that are perfect, but cost and weight may be too much.

As for a wide zoom, a 11-16 seems to popular. For the long side, I picked a Canon 100-300mm to test the water. It's a bit slow, but cost was cheap for testing. I know Doug had a Cine Red 300, but changed to a Canon 100 to 400mm. From another thread, Doug listed the lenses he has.

For lenses selection, it depends how deep their pockets are. If you read the Large Camera Sensor Thread, I asked about what lenses are being used.

As for me, one reason I like the "kit lens" is that it's a power zoom. It's not as fast nor zoom speed as an ENG lens, but at least a power zoom. Also, you will find that some Cine lenses are a few stops slower than an ENG lenses. It would be nice to have constant f2.8 lenses.

I have been testing the water with older Nikon still lenses. I do like the look of them. I mostly have primes since those are faster than the zooms.

I would say three zooms to cover a given range. Looking at Doug's list, he had three zooms that cover the range from 11 to 150mm.

Doug, I read the thread on the other board about what lenses to use. I hope you don't mind answering with your lens comments.
My run & gun lens is a Zeiss 15.5-45mm f/2.6 that cost $20K so not really something I can recommend to others.

I have the Duclos 11-16mm for super wide angle when I need it, but to be honest, it does not get used very much. And it's silly to even think of it as a zoom because it's only 1.5x. It's really a prime that can be used at 16mm or 11mm. But you wouldn't want to use it as a run & gun lens unless you plan to be standing within arm's length of everyone you shoot!

The Canon 24mm with a speedbooster might be okay for R&G, but is important to recognize that the speedbooster turns it into something wider than a 24mm. So any other 24mm lens would NOT be wide enought for R&G. The speedbooster complicates things when comparing lenses.

A decent cheap lens for the FS7 is the Sony 18-105 f/4 if someone won't be shooting 4K. It's sharp enough for 4K, but it requires the camera's "distortion compensation" mode to be turned on to avoid barrel distortion and that only works with HD. I own one and it's a solid performer for $600. It will be the kit lens on the new FS5 and it should have been the kit lens on the FS7 instead of the poorly chosen 28-135.

Oh, one more thing. I actually have the Canon 200-400 f/4 with built-in 1.4x teleconverter and not the 100-400. But I only use this lens on my F55. In fact, I am have been shooting wildlife in Glacier and Yellowstone National Parks for the past week and the lens is really paying for itself fast! Still have another few days before I move down to Teton NP for moose.

My RED 300mm f/2.9 I previously used for wildlife is for sale if anyone is interested. It paid for itself many times over with stock footage sales. A fantastic lens that in some ways is better than the Canon that cost 4x more. It's still in mint condition with just a small dent on the removable lens hood.
 

Necktie Boy

Well-known member
Hi Doug,

Not to hijack this thread......But.....

Why don't you like the 28-135? The range isn't the greatest, but it does do 4k nicely, not like the 18-105? A buddy tested one and didn't like it one bit. Felt the glass was soft and focus by wire was terrible. He liked the cine feel of the 28-135.

I like 28-135 since it's like an ENG lens. I am always in manual mode. Just wish the zoom speed was faster. Is it prefect, no, but a bit cheaper than the Canon 17-120 Cine Servo. LOL

Yea, I screwed up on my notes. You do say 200-400mm. Don't know where I got the 100mm? Sorry.
 

Douglas

Well-known member
The 28-135 falls into a no-man's land. Who needs it? The 28mm isn't wide enough to be used for run and gun. The f/4 aperture isn't fast enough for interviews. And 135mm isn't long enough for wildlife or sports. If I had this lens, it would never get used. In fact, I contend that no matter what someone uses this lens for, I'll will bet there is a better option they could be using instead. My advice is to spend the $2500 someplace else and get more bang for the buck.

One other consideration is that it is an e-mount lens. Who wants to be investing thousands of dollars in e-mount lenses? Not me.

The 18-105 is a pretty good lens for the price. I don't think it is soft at all. Your friend is dead wrong on that. And the focus by wire issue is a not a big deal if you use push auto. Hell, it is faster than doing it manually on many other lenses. Is it a perfect lens, no. But it's not bad for the price and for what it is.
 

Necktie Boy

Well-known member
Sure, it's not the perfect lens. You do have to give it a big plus for the power zoom feature. Most of us do come from using ENG lenses. One lens did it all, but going with a large sensor, cost and size plays a big factor. I knew that I need a better wide side. I knew I would require more than lens to cover different focal lengths.

Also, as a shooter, we have to go back to our film training. Primes rule while zooms are okay. Times have changed. Zooms are better. If you can point me to a cine style lens with a power option for $2500 buck for 4k shooting, I would be glad to look at it.

I have read many reviews on the 18-105 lens. Most say it's okay for the price, but rather spend that money on better lens. That's why you see more using the Canon 24-105 with a Speedbooster. More bang for your dollar.

Would I have been happy with the 18-105? I don't think so. The manual setting and manual rings on the 28-135 felt closer to an ENG lens than most other lenses.

Will I invest in E-Mount lenses? Sure, it I can get a wide power zoom. Right now, I have adapters for Nikon F and Canon lenses. I rather go with Super35 lenses.

I see your point, but hope you see my point, too.
 

Starman

Well-known member
Hmmm....

The way I will go will probably be a PMW300/200, for current use, planning on most likely buying a Sony F5 with the ENG dock in the future.

That would be a killer combo right there.
 

Robin

Well-known member
Hi Starman

I went from PMW500 to F5.. I don't think you need the F5 and a PMW300/200.. The F5 will shoot XDCAM.. when I first started with the F5 I had cheap Samyang primes.. and an optical only adaptor for B4 ENG zoom in centre crop mode.. this covered most work..
Also I would try the F5 without the dock first.. I really don't think its needed for general doc/corp shoots.. I kept my PMW500 to begin with.. with the idea F5 for corp and 500 for doc,s.. but realized I didnt need the 500 ...
 

Douglas

Well-known member
I don't think you need the F5 and a PMW300/200.. ...
In my opinion, he doesn't need the F5, either. Unless someone is working at very high-end levels, and will shoot RAW or SR, there is very little the F5 offers over the FS7. And the FS7 is much easier operate and requires virtually no other accessories in order to be ready to roll right out of the box. I kind of could see why somone might cut corners and buy a F5 instead of an F55 a couple of years ago, but now that the FS7 is on the scene, I don't really see a good reason to buy an F5 today.
 
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Robin

Well-known member
Agree.. was just using that as my own example .. re needing a S35 sensor camera and any other size..
I think i would still go for the F5 if i were buying today.. for the PL mount,and side LCD/Hot buttons.. (hopefully even better with V7 menu update !)..some low milage second hand ones around too..and if you already have paid out big for SXS cards.. lack of centre crop is a draw back with the FS7 but very soon to be rectified I believe.. but yes for the money the best camera in the known universe ..
 
Agree.. was just using that as my own example .. re needing a S35 sensor camera and any other size..
I think i would still go for the F5 if i were buying today.. for the PL mount,and side LCD/Hot buttons.. (hopefully even better with V7 menu update !)..some low milage second hand ones around too..and if you already have paid out big for SXS cards.. lack of centre crop is a draw back with the FS7 but very soon to be rectified I believe.. but yes for the money the best camera in the known universe ..
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Sony offer a hardware upgrade path on the F5 to F-55 as well?
 

Douglas

Well-known member
Yes, but it costs more than if you had just bought the F55 in the first place. I would be surprised if Sony sells any F5 cameras these days. Either you need the power and performance of the F55, or you can settle for the excellent value of the FS7. The F5 falls in the middle someplace and I don't see why someone would buy one today.
 

Robin

Well-known member
Yeah I wonder if anyone did the full 5 to 55 conversion.. But the very good value $1,000 up grade to internal 4K.. (due to a hack that forced Sonys hand).. then gave my F5 the thing that would have been the only real reason for the up grade.. internal 4K.. i think a lot of people did this up grade.. the difference in CFA and global shutter aren't concerns for my work..
No argument FS7 best camera for price in town.. but still really personally i would spend a bit more for a 4K internal F5.. I really like the side LCD.. and have a heavy PL mount zoom.. so the PL lens port is needed.. I know there are adaptors but my goal in life is to avoid all and any adaptors !! yes I know the F5 is EZ but thats a pretty formidable PL mount adapter .. and really that E mount is not strong enough for heavy cine lenses in my view.. and the market it was aimed at is DSLR lens users.. hence the E mount in the first place..

Although agree now with the FS7/Fs5 around.. the F5 market is very crowded.. I wonder if they will just make a F60.. to combine the F5/55 .. and possibly bring the price down a bit.. (worth hoping for !) that would be my next camera .. rather than an FS7..
 
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