Damned if you do, Damned if you don't

Baltimore Shooter

Well-known member
The cost of finding alternative fuels. Think about this the next time someone wants you to lower your rates. This from MSN:

Why grocery bills are getting bigger
Running cars on ethanol may curb our consumption of imported oil, but it's also driving up the price of corn and meat.

By The Associated Press
Ethanol plants' strong demand for corn is driving up the cost of livestock and will raise prices for beef, pork and chicken, the Agriculture Department said today.

Meat production will fall as producers face higher feed costs, the department said in its monthly crop report. Ethanol fuel, which is blended with gasoline, is consuming 20% of last year's corn crop and is expected to gobble up more than 25% of this year's crop.

The price of corn, the main feed for livestock, has driven up the cost of feeding chickens by 40%, according to the National Chicken Council. The council says chicken, the most popular meat with consumers, will soon cost more at grocery stores. The industry worries the competition from ethanol could cause a shortage of corn.

The average price of corn, unchanged from last month, is $3.20 a bushel, up from $2 last year.

Though chicken producer Tyson Foods (TSN, news, msgs) posted its first profitable quarter in a year Jan. 29, executives warned that a dramatic rise in feed costs will raise chicken prices.

"Companies will be forced to pass along rising costs to their customers, meaning consumers will pay significantly more for food," Chief Executive Dick Bond said.

Deputy Agriculture Secretary Chuck Conner said the Agriculture Department is keeping an eye on corn supply and demand. Demand likely will prompt farmers to plant more acres in corn, he said.

"We do have confidence in the marketplace's ability to react," Conner said. "We believe producers are seeing the market saying, 'I need more corn, not only for ethanol but for our feed needs in this country.' "
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Warren
 

Tapeape

Active member
er. . .you're not damned if you don't. Ethanol is BS. It simply doesn't work as advertised. The only use for ethanol is to cheat on smog tests if you gutted your cat - and people that do that aren't worried about the supposed (and nonexistant) environmental benefits of ethanol anyway ;)
 

pre-set

Well-known member
I disagree. If you dilute a given quantity of gasoline by 10% or 20%, then you have effectively "boosted" the overall mileage of the current fleet of vehicles.... Assuming that the reduced power/economy of ethanol doesn't eat up the savings of 10%-20% - which it doesn't (but it IS about 4%-6% LESS efficeint per vloume than gasoline)... So figure worst case, it saves 6% gas for all vehicles across the board, worst case. That's a pretty good first start, I think.
 

Canonman

Well-known member
I had already heard about this a few months ago and I'd gladly pay more to support American farmers vs. having my money go overseas to buy crude oil. Anything we can do to wean ourselves from the OPEC tit should be thought of as a good thing.

JMO,

cm
 

cameradog

Well-known member
I disagree. If you dilute a given quantity of gasoline by 10% or 20%, then you have effectively "boosted" the overall mileage of the current fleet of vehicles.... Assuming that the reduced power/economy of ethanol doesn't eat up the savings of 10%-20% - which it doesn't (but it IS about 4%-6% LESS efficeint per vloume than gasoline)... So figure worst case, it saves 6% gas for all vehicles across the board, worst case. That's a pretty good first start, I think.
The big flaws you're leaving out are that it takes more energy to convert corn to alcohol than it does to refine gasoline. So the energy saved in miles per gallon is spent elsewhere in the distilling process. Further, diverting farming resources to corn production not only reduces the amount of corn for food purposes, but it also takes resources (land, labor and processing) away from other crops, driving up their prices as well.

A few farmers and distillers win because of big government subsidies. Society as a whole loses. Enjoy your $3 Coke and your $7 Big Mac.
 

pre-set

Well-known member
I drink Pepsi and eat Fillet-o-Fishes. <sarcasm>

Yeah, ADM is going to make a killing on corn revenues, but I would think that foks upset by ethanol production would be MORE angry that the U.S. won't be using as much of our crop lands to feed the rest of the worlds' poor.

Since this is something we've done for decades and not gotten very much credit or thanks for, I'm fine with that. But some other country out there better feed the people we used to...
 

thru-the-lens

Well-known member
I blame that evil Tony George and his damn Crapwaggons running Ethanol in the Inferior Racing League.

thru-the-lens.
 
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pre-set

Well-known member
Yeah, for real. Everybody knows there's supposed to be VISABLE flames when racing fuel catches fire!!!!
 

Tapeape

Active member
I disagree. If you dilute a given quantity of gasoline by 10% or 20%, then you have effectively "boosted" the overall mileage of the current fleet of vehicles.... Assuming that the reduced power/economy of ethanol doesn't eat up the savings of 10%-20% - which it doesn't (but it IS about 4%-6% LESS efficeint per vloume than gasoline)... So figure worst case, it saves 6% gas for all vehicles across the board, worst case. That's a pretty good first start, I think.

If you're talking fiscal savings, you have to factor in the federal blend tax subsidy which is 50 cents per gallon (and then states, especially those in corn-producing regions, usually add their own subsidies) So ethanol actually costs more than regular gas - that's just hidden by all the handouts from the government.

If you're talking energy savings, you must take into account the entire energy equation, which includes growing the corn, transporting the corn, processing the corn, transporting the waste products, and transporting the ethanol (which has to be done in a truck which burns fossil fuels, since it can't be sent in pipelines due to its water absorbtion properties). Once you do all that, the ethanol energy picture, especially if the ethanol is derived from relatively low-sugar sources like corn instead of high-sugar sources like sugarcane and sugarbeets, doesn't look quite as rosy.

I'm all for environmentalism. I just want it to be real.
 
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