Balancing Indoor for Outdoor Light

[N.Klaeser]

I would like to know when shooting interviews indoors, what type of filtering do you use to keep the windows from blowing out. I have seen many interviews were the outdoor environment matches the indoor white balance as well as the light intensity.

[D-S-N-Gshooter]

When I run in to that situation...I always switch to filter 3 and rewhite. Since I have a monitor to check my color with...that helps out a lot...don't know if there is another way, but this always seems to work for me.

[Nino]

There are many ways to accomplish this, it all depends on how much equipment you have available and how much time. It's not just a matter of white balancing your camera.

The least expensive way to do it would be to use Roscosun 85N3 or 85N6 roll gels on the window and continue using you standard lighting. This gel converts 5500K to 3200K as well as being a neutral density gel to lower the outside brightness.

The most expensive method would be to use a combination ND gels on the windows and HMI lights.

The down and dirty way would be to use CTB gel on your tungsten lights and time your shot for late in the day or very early so the outside brightness will be very low or match your tungsten lights. Sometime a "little" blue looking outside might look good. Time your shot to avoid direct sunlight coming into the window.

If you are lucky enough to have fluorescent lights you can replace the bulbs to 5500K, in this case you will still need to gel your windows with ND gels or time your shot.

[Hiding Under Here]

Shooting with windows in the shot is very tricky. You can get the whole thing set up right, but just when you start to shoot the sun will go a little higher and hit something out the window and make it too hot to shoot. So in addition to using the right gel for the desired look, you should also try and evaluate how the sun will interact with your shot as time goes on.*

[SherpaPhotog]

I've run into this a few times, when all else fails, error on the side of orange with your 5600K, because blue just looks bad

[Baltimore's Finest Fotog]

Three things I'm wondering...

1.) How do you actually "gel" a window?

If you are lucky enough to have fluorescent lights you can replace the bulbs to 5500K...

2.) If you change the bulbs, I suppose this solves your color temp. problem, but what about your iris dilemma? Isn't your outside still going to be brighter than your inside?

...which leads me to...

3.) Another solution that comes to mind is to up the intensity of your lights or simply move them closer to the subject, but I am always leery of doing this for fear of making the interviewee uncomfortable or causing the person to squint. Isn't there a specific kind of lens filter (that's probably way out of a local guy's budget) that can be used to match the intensity of the background lighting with that of the foreground???

[BluesCam]

You have received some very good advice. I would add that sometimes I like the look of the window going blue in the background. It can add some nice color to the shot.

I used that effect in a professor's office full of dark brown furniture. I added a golden break-up pattern and it really looked nice. Almost a stained glass look, very elegant. Every situation is different. I always carry Duvetyne/Commando Cloth for control as well.

[Chronically Confused]

When I come to those situations, I ask myself where the primary light source is. If the light you see filling the room is from indoor lighting, I'd use filter 1 and try to go away from a window.
If the light you see filling the room is from outdoor lighting from a window, I'd switch to filter 3 and not worry about the window

[Baltimore's Finest Fotog]

If the light you see filling the room is from outdoor lighting from a window, I'd switch to filter 3 and not worry about the window

Sorry, but how do you NOT worry about the window if it's going to be in your shot? That window will most certainly be BLOWN OUT during the day time. Unless you mean stay away from the window?

But, if I'm not mistaken, I believe this thread is in regard to those interviews that incorporate windows into the shot. For instance, I was watching that ESPN documentary, "Black Magic." One of the interviews (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHUJgDAFJzo) was done with the gentleman sitting right in front of a big bay style window. It comes in at :17 and stays up for about 10 seconds. How do you achieve this exposure? (Though I think even this window is slightly overexposed)

Side note: Now far be it from me to claim to be a qualified critic on lighting, but I have to say I wasn't that impressed with the lighting in most of the interviews. Some looked nice, but others looked to only have a keylight and that's it. And it seemed like some of them were shot in close quarters with very little dimension - i.e. right up against a bookshelf, or sitting on a couch flat up against a wall. That is puzzling to me.

[Run&Gun]

Side note: Now far be it from me to claim to be a qualified critic on lighting, but I have to say I wasn't that impressed with the lighting in most of the interviews. Some looked nice, but others looked to only have a keylight and that's it. And it seemed like some of them were shot in close quarters with very little dimension - i.e. right up against a bookshelf, or sitting on a couch flat up against a wall. That is puzzling to me.

Off topic slightly. I don't know the production co. that may have done the series, but I shot for a series on ESPN the other year (in HD, no less) for a well known production company and the "style" was... well I'll just say I was very disappointed in 95% of the interviews I saw on-air. In fact, I watched some of them sitting in a restaurant while on a remote with a higher up at ESPN and some other ESPN people and shooter and we just shook our heads. I took my time on the few that I did and made them look as good as I could under their requirments, but most I saw were like you described: subjects right up against the backgrounds, very minimal lighting, and lots of subjects looking and framed on the "wrong side" with nothing compelling behind them to allow for "non-traditional" framing.

Geling a window, it's basically like window tint. I have cut it exactly for a specific window in a shot before and attached it inside, but I have large pieces that, if i do gel a window, I'll usually tape a large piece up outside over the window. Most of the time if I'm incorporating a window into the shot, I shoot it daylight, but depending, I'll mix tungsten and daylight colors into the background lighting. You just have to feel it out and it depends on the type of shoot. Also, sometimes you want the window or highlite to "blow out". You can use it artfully and sometimes you can use it to "hide" something you don't want to see that may be within view outside the window. But that usually works better on tighter shots and where there are other things in the frame so that the window isn't the only thing drawing your eye. Once again, you have to feel it out...

[Baltimore's Finest Fotog]

Yeah, it was definitely off topic, just didn't think it was worth starting a totally separate thread.

Still, the question remains...how do you match the EXPOSURE outside and inside without blasting your subject with lights? Does "gelling" the windows achieve both a balanced color temperature AND exposure? And is there, as I suggested earlier, a kind of lens filter/adapter that will fix the exposure dilemma?

[Nino]

Still, the question remains...how do you match the EXPOSURE outside and inside without blasting your subject with lights? Does "gelling" the windows achieve both a balanced color temperature AND exposure? And is there, as I suggested earlier, a kind of lens filter/adapter that will fix the exposure dilemma?

As I said above, 85N3 and 85N6 gels are both color converter and neutral density.
or you can put two layers of gels, CTB and ND. You can also use double net behind the subject just like you would use outdoor and that will reduce the background brightness by about 1.5 stop as well as giving you a softer background.

[cameragod]

I usually gel the inside of the window as that way it won’t flap in the wind angering the sound Nazi. :eek:
Quick and dirty is some double-sided tape in the corners if I have time I cut the gel to size of the window and then wet with a water/detergent mix, roll the gel against the glass to make it stick. No mess, looks good and the windows are cleaner than when I started.
It pays to spend a bit of time getting it right and do the whole window as if you only do the bit you think will be in the back of shot you can guarantee you end up with the one bit you didn’t do creeping into shot.
Best way to do it is to just tell the grip to get it done… what? You don’t have a grip? :D

A lot of modern buildings already have colour corrected/ND’d windows I’ve actually had to put up a 1/4CTB to make the outside look blue.

Gel is an important and incredibly useful and relatively cheap tool I’m constantly surprised at how few cameramen seem to know how to use it.

[Baltimore's Finest Fotog]

As I said above, 85N3 and 85N6 gels are both color converter and neutral density.
or you can put two layers of gels, CTB and ND. You can also use double net behind the subject just like you would use outdoor and that will reduce the background brightness by about 1.5 stop as well as giving you a softer background.

My apologies. After going back and reading through the posts again, I saw that you did address my exposure question in your first post.

I do, however, have one more question, Nino, or whoever would care to weigh in.

I was watching a 60 Minutes (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3960835n) piece*** on David Beckham this evening. In it Anderson Cooper interviews the CEO of the company that owns the LA Galaxy. It appears that the room where the interview takes place is completely surrounded by windows. Are all of these windows "gelled?"

**There WAS a two shot in the piece that ran on TV that would've perfectly illustrated what this thread is about, but they apparently posted a different version on the web...perhaps using the cutaways of Anderson instead of the two shot. But there was most definitely a great two shot with a large window next to Anderson and the CEO that was very nicely exposed for the outside and inside and there was no way they could've used double net because the window was too close to the two men.**

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse, but it was just ironic that I saw this story tonight after responding to this thread. So, of course, it got me to wondering if a crew would take the time to gel every single window in a situation like this one.

***Note: The piece is hyperlinked in my post.***

[Run&Gun]

I didn't see the piece, but a lot of buildings now, have heavily tinted windows which makes things very easy. I did a sit-down a while back where I ended up using the windows as part of the background and i was able to balance the exposure properly just hitting the subject with the spill off of my 800 HMI.

[LuccaBrazzi]

That window wasn't a "must have" for the interview (unless it was w/the CEO of a window company.)

If you MUST shoot this way, close the blinds or drapes. This adds some "texture" to the background.

But I've shot w/windows in the background. I just put a dichro on my key-light. Put on filter "3" and white-balance near the subject's face.

Works every time for me.

[cameragod]

You don’t have to shoot toward the window but sometimes,done properly, it’s the best option.
Don’t be afraid of the light…

[Geezer.1]

If you have a choice, say in a corner office with two windows, look for the background that will be the easiest to balance. For example if one side has an open sky and the other has the wall of the building next door then then the building next door will naturally be a lot easier to deal with. You may gain some advantage if you ped up the sticks to get more dark stuff in the background if you can do so without screwing up your frame.
Back in my film making days when we had lots of time and HMI lights didn't exist then putting gels on windows was the only choice. A sheet of 85 with substanitial ND built in was the way to go. Getting it flat so it didn't pick up highlights could be tricky but it genreally worked.
Now I use gels on tungsten lights as most of my work is run and gun and modern HMI's are not in my budget. There are a lot of choices for correction gels for lights out there. Rosco makes a nice 1/2 correction gel with diffusion that get's you really close color wise, lets more light through and softens things up so you don't have to use an umbrella or soft box.
If I had my druthers I would pack a couple of 400w lightweight HMI's and chances are there would not be a situation I couldn't balance out.
I can think of ten thousand reasons why that won't happen and each one has a picture of a president on it.
Hope this helps some.

[Wideangle]

I gel up windows and kick them with an HMI when using a window for a back drop.
A cloudy day helps in that a gel might not be necessary if you aren't incorporating
the sky. I think Nino addressed it best...if you have the right tools, then go for it.
If you don't, then I would avoid it unless you are going for the "silhouette" look where
you don't want the subject to be identifiable.

[SupaMusk]

I just put a dichro on my key-light. Put on filter "3" and white-balance near the subject's face.

Works every time for me.


I Second This Notion

[punky cameraman]

all due respect to Nino .... my florida brother on the street.
but most of us don't have the time ....... or all that sweet gear to light the
crap out of every interview.

for you production guys ... Nino ... he's the man.

but for those of you grinding news on the daily turn,
keep it simple.
if the majority of light entering a room is from the windows .... use it.
make it your key light if possible.
i do this almost everyday
i carry two large foam core reflectors in my SUV and i use them for fill.

also don't buy into the filter 3 myth (must use when daylight present)
you can use filter 1 even when you use window light as your key.
trust me it will be a mixed light situation and you might need to turn off
some room lights but window light is very natural.
white balance off the key light source .... say the window and the worst that
will happen is a warm background.

punky

[quicklad]

To your question about the interview with the team owner.

Keep in mind the ambient light is significantly higher if you are "surrounded by windows". So, depending on the directions of light, and specifics of what is out the window, you don't need to blast the subject so much as augment the available light.

Punky is right in that the most beautiful interviews I've "lit" have been when I could take advantage of an out of shot window with reflected light as the key (North facing windows anyone?) - I tell my client I'm using the Big Gaffer in the Sky.

Having enough grip gear to push and shape the light on the background become essential at this point.

[OKCLense]

I like to use outside light as my backround light if I have the ability to control it a bit. I use tungsten light, then have a blue background light. You can also put blue gels on the tungsten light and balance to 5600k and have white background.

[Baltimore's Finest Fotog]

To those who have answered my questions about balancing exposure between the inside and outside environments, Thank You. It has provided some insight. I am going to look into buying gels to apply to windows.

I use tungsten light, then have a blue background light. You can also put blue gels on the tungsten light and balance to 5600k and have white background.

The color temperature thing is no big mystery. Though it has me wondering now, in light of OKCLense's comments...how many of you actually use tungsten as your keylight when there is a significant amount of daylight coming into the room? Unless I want to get really creative with my lighting and take a chance - so long as I have a monitor - I might do something like that. Otherwise, if there's daylight in the room, I usually go with that as my keylight.

punky cameraman, you also have me wondering...

if the majority of light entering a room is from the windows .... use it.
make it your key light if possible.
i do this almost everyday
i carry two large foam core reflectors in my SUV and i use them for fill.

Are you saying that you won't use any lights if you've got a good natural light source? I've done this before with tungsten lights - a la Ray Farkas in his Brain Surgery piece where he's sitting by the table lamp. In other words, I may use a nearby lamp or overhead light as my keylight with a little bit of fill from one of my lights instead of using all artificial light. The same goes for using any available daylight coming in through a window...I will utilize that light and fill with one of my lowels. But I've never JUST used the window as my keylight. And I definitely can't imagine using any kind of a reflector to fill in the remainder. I'd like to see an example of this if you've got one. I'm curious how this would look, because unless you're in a sunroom or a room surrounded by windows I feel like there wouldn't be enough light to illuminate your interview.

Lastly, quicklad, I've heard others refer to North facing windows. I think I know what you're referring to, but if you could...elaborate...

[Hiding Under Here]

When there is a lot of daylight pouring into a room, your professional freelance television photographer generally does one of two things. Most likely they get out their duvateen (black material) and they take some clamps (the silver ones with the orange tipped pincers) and they start covering the windows. If you're in a room with four windows and you want to use one of them in the background, you cover the three windows that are not in the shot. Then you gel the window in the background using an 85 that turns it around to 3200 degrees or with a non-85 treated ND that lets it go blue. That is, provided you are using tungsten lights for your keys.

The other option is to use HMIs. But HMIs have many drawbacks. They are expensive to buy and rent. And it costs a lot of money to have a truly full complement of HMIs to do the myriad jobs that tungsten can handle. Also, with tungsten lights you can afford more fresnels and fresnels come in handy in the background. The drawback to tungsten lights is that they lack the output of HMIs. Generally and HMI at the same wattage of a tungsten unit puts out about three times the amount of light. So a 575 watt HMI puts out the equivalent of 1500 watts tungsten.

[Nino]

To add to Tom (HUH) post above, in most interview we do, time, place or season should not be identifiable. This is why most of the time the first thing we do is to block out every available light and start with a dark room.

all due respect to Nino .... my florida brother on the street. but most of us don't have the time ....... or all that sweet gear to light the
crap out of every interview.

It is not always the case, I get to do the down and dirty interviews too. Actually if I'm running the show many times I prefer to have only the main subject in a involved set-up, this will visually give the subject strength and anchor him as the most important subject in the story. For other less important subjects in the same story I prefer to see them in a lesser involved setting (I can just see Rosenblum taking notes).

[punky cameraman]

balt-mores finest ....
no, i don't use tungsten lights when i use window daylight for interviews.
i have found that the dicro filters for tungsten lights makes an ugly blue light.
now if..... if i had a nice set of HMIs i would use them.

this is very similar to the Ray Farkas style because i think he used very limited
additional light ...
an added benefit to using less light is that you will be able to shrink your
depth of field which is nice in its own way ..... like Farkas
picking a good location for your interviews with as much natural light will
make it look ...... natural.
and when you mate that interview with your b-roll it will match
as opposed to jumping from a perfect head shot to b-roll that looks as if
it was shot on another day.

another thing, i shoot in florida where we have TONS of natural light in every
building ..... you might not be able to do this everywhere

may of us were trained in the days of crappy cameras ..... just throw tons
of light on everything.
but now we have cameras that don't need tons of light ..... so light your interviews
well but with less light from your truck.


i will work on getting some frame grabs ...... stay tuned

punky

[Hiding Under Here]

Using natural light is cool. It's like video jujitsu. But it's kind of a one-size-fits-all kind of deal. You can get very very clever with natural light. However, it's fleeting and it's fickle and, if you rely on it solely, it will backfire on you in the end. You have to have other solutions in your tool box. And if your budget is limited -- even severely -- you develop that tool box (clamps, clothes pins, diffusion) over time.

[2000lux]

I'm sorry if this seems really basic, but I thought it might be good for the newbies who might be lurking and have similar questions.

...how do you match the EXPOSURE outside and inside without blasting your subject with lights? Does "gelling" the windows achieve both a balanced color temperature AND exposure?

The same gel you put on your tungsten lights for color correction or to change the color for some other reason comes on large rolls. To correct the day light to match your tungsten lights, you use a CTO, orangy gel that will turn the blue (5600K) day light orange (3200K).

If you have time you can cut a piece to the same size as the window and attach it to the inside of the window. You can also put it on the out side of the window in which case you can often avoid actually cutting the gel and save it for another day, and just do it quick and dirty. The gel will reduce the intensity of the light by a stop or so. You can also use neutral density (ND) gel with it to cut down the intensity.

Your other option is to use blue day light correction gel, or a dichroic filter, to correct your orangy tungsten light (3200K) to daylight color (5600K). The gel or filter will cut down some of the brightness of the light, but it's easier and quicker than geling the windows. This requires that the view out the window not be too bright, or that you put some ND on the window.

Yet another option is to light the interview with an HMI. Again, you may have to adjust the brightness of the window.

...is there, as I suggested earlier, a kind of lens filter/adapter that will fix the exposure dilemma?

No. That's physically impossible.

I've never JUST used the window as my keylight. And I definitely can't imagine using any kind of a reflector to fill in the remainder. I'd like to see an example of this if you've got one. I'm curious how this would look, because unless you're in a sunroom or a room surrounded by windows I feel like there wouldn't be enough light to illuminate your interview.

Windows make great key lights. I've used them many times. It works especially well on clowdy days where the exposure isn't likely to change much. At the least you want to be getting indirect sun. If the sun is shining straight through the window and on to your subject, that could be a bit harsh.

Just use the window as a big soft key light. In my experience, if you face the subject directly at the window, place the reporter in front of it for them the look at, and shoot slightly from the side, you'll get some very nice modeling. You could also have the subject face slightly away from the window and get even more dramatic effects. This is where a reflector might come in handy in that you could bounce some fill in to the shady side of the face. If you're feeling really ambitious, I could see using a reflector to create a hair light too.

Remember to shut off the tungsten and florescent lights in the room so you don't have an orange background. However, if you leave some small practicals on in the background - far enough away from the subject that they affect don't them - like a table lamp, or some accent lights, the warm tones can look nice.

Using windows as your key can be a real time saver since you don't have to set any thing up. You'll have plenty of light.

Experiment with it on a VO SOT or some other time when you don't have a reporter breathing down your neck

Here are some examples of work I've done.

In this one I used the light coming in the window as the only light for Maggie Kigozi (~ half way in to the story). I turned off the lights so there wouldn't be color temperature issues. She's facing slightly away from the brightest window (you can see how the light falls on her face). She's also getting some fill from a darker window on the wall opposite the book shelf.

Indians in Uganda (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/international/2007/11/14/inside.africa.b.uganda.indian.immigrants.cnn?iref= videosearch)

I just want to mention that the reporter, Nick Valencia, was there as a VJ and shot most of this package him self. I only helped shoot part of it. He was there working by himself for three weeks and turned out several packages. I think he did a great job.

Any way. Here's the second example. In this case the room is all windows on 2 1/2 walls. I used the blinds to cut down the amount of sunlight coming in to the room, and then gelled the key and hair lights. The key is a 600W Omni with an XS Chimera and full color correction blue in the Chimera. The hair light is a Lowel Pro Light, also with some CTB gel. The fill is a reflector. Unfortunately CNN seems to have taken the video off their server, but I found a still from it.

http://www.forgenow.org/images/cnnvideo.jpg

For the B-roll of Kjerstin and her fiance in the dining room, I used the glass patio door as the key, and filled with that same Omni with the Chimera and blue gel. You can try to see the video here (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2007/04/19/pysk.erickson.affl) but like I said. I think CNN took it off it's server.

I hope that helps, or at least gives people some ideas.

[Baltimore's Finest Fotog]

Great stuff, fellas.

2000lux, I haven't checked out the clips yet, but I appreciate the input. Funny you should suggest experimenting with a window as a keylight. I found myself in a perfect situation today on a VOSOT, and I took advantage of it. I'm going to try and post some frame grabs tomorrow if I can. I hope I can get some feedback on some of my more recent lighting "victories."

[AlexLucas]

Look guys, we can all argue about the methods that we use, but I think we can all agree, Nino does have some schwag gear that we're all jealous of. :)

What I think needs to be embraced (by all of this to those without working light kits) is that when you get in a situation like this, the only people that get out of it in one piece, grip truck or not, are those that understand that lighting is the most key and important skill set, and that most ENGs have not spent the time, put in the patient learning part, or had the classical education in photography to learn it.

You must, as a photog, understand that what these guys do every time to get soft backgrounds, good lighting, and get a specific look out of tough situations has more to do with their knowledge of the science of photography, that they've studied diligently, rather than the equipment that they use. You must know the exposure, shutter, color temp, contrast issues, and a lot of factors like the back of your hand and with a 'built in light meter in your eye socket' before you turn on the camera. That's how you'll succeed. The rest of the photog pool is doing what I call 'fumbling towards results,' with the occasional 'lucky moment' where all of your factors worked, and then they slap it on a resume tape.

Guys like Nino that truly understand their craft, don't slap it on a resume tape. They slap it on a tape for a client, and get paid well every day for it. There is no fumble, there is no "getting lucky with the light."

You are a professional. Fumbling through anything, like I've seen from others, is well, unacceptable.

Example: I know photogs that don't know what an HMI light is, and why any photog would want one. I know the majority of photogs that are unsure of how to, in ordinary lighting conditions, get their lens to an F4 or below. Some believe that a 250w tungsten open face light is too powerful, and you should 'gain up' to pull a background. When I tell them my key light on the live shot was a 1k DP light, they say, "man, that's too powerful."

To Baltimore, and a lot of guys that are thinking about what they're doing and asking questions, I say welcome. We're your friends. PM us and call us. We care about people who care, and we like your attitude. There are no secrets among the winners. Just more questions.

We're all still working out new ways to get creative, and lighting is a true master art that most people in ENG never even dabble in. Most can't care enough to set their camera up correctly for an outdoor shoot, so why would they care about lighting? That's an even deeper subject.

[Wideangle]

You can get very very clever with natural light. However, it's fleeting and it's fickle and, if you rely on it solely, it will backfire on you in the end. You have to have other solutions in your tool box. And if your budget is limited -- even severely -- you develop that tool box (clamps, clothes pins, diffusion) over time.Hiding Under Here

I agree. When I get to an interview location, my first thought is to eliminate
problems and take control of the situation. Using daylight may work in a few instances, but it's lack of consitancy means you either have to take a measure of control over it, (gels, diffusion, etc), or you take it out of the equation and create your own palette. Either way, it HAS TO WORK! You can't stop the interview because your sun moved, or went behind a cloud, or came out of the clouds and
blew you background out. I'm one of the lucky ones in that I have a bigger tool
bag at my disposal then some, (hmi's gels, etc). That doesn't mean I have a
staff of sherpas to help me lug, carry, and set-up all this. Like Nino, you don't
always have the time, budget, or help to do that "perfect" set-up. So you pick your moments and situations. A luxury I have sometimes is the ability to scout a location in advance which of course gives me a heads up as to what to bring and what to leave behind. It is usually in these instances that I can get a better handle on
what will work without someone watching me like they have a stopwatch on me.
The use of internet JPG's has helped me as well. I had a PSA I had to shoot in NYC
with Wynton Marsalias at Lincoln Center. Several e-mailed pixes of the room we were to shoot
in gave me enough info to come up with a game plan ahead of time. This was even more important because of strict union rules as to how many watts I could use
before they were required to park an electrician in with us at some crazy hourly rate
the client didn't want to pay for. So advanced intel can give you a little more flexability
or at least a better idea then coming in cold. A good monitor, a working knowledge of the kelvin scale, and reading zebras doesn't hurt either!