Hey P2 and XD Cam shooters

[newsshooter]

I normally shoot on an old black and white DVC PRO 700. This week I landed a freelance gig shooting on a new Panasonic 500 P2 with 4 16 gig cards. It's got a beautiful image, but I don't like having an hour and half of "tape" It took 14 minutes times 4 to file transfer 16 minutes of video to the computer. I then had to delete the cards to shoot more today. That's a scary thought because the producer will be out of luck if something happens to the files in her computer. She has two copies, one on the computer another on an external drive so she might be alright. It also seems like there is a lot of menu's to surf through to make things happen. I'm also shooting to a fire store for back-up, which seems cool and maybe I'll like it once I figure out how to use the crazy thing. It also has lots of menu's. Back in the day photogs had a camera and a cord hooked to a deck, now in 2007 I have a camera and a cord hooked to a deck. The producer reminded me the Panasonic is MPEG-4 at
4:2:2 compression. The XD CAM is 4:2:0 at MEG-2. Panny is 135 MB/S and XD is
35 MB/S right? Does any of this matter? I like the workflow of the XDcam because of the 1 hour $33.00 disk, but does it look as good as the HD DVC PRO? How are you P2 freelancers handing out your video to producers? Are producers packing hard drives and computers now? Can anyone tell the difference between P2 and XD CAM?
I'd like to buy a Sony EX, but it's card driven!!!! WHY!!!! The EX card is a little cheaper, but you still have to file trasfer to a disc or a drive when finished shooting. Is Sony XD as slow as Panasonic on the file transfer? How long does it take to transfer a full XD cam disc to final cut? Please set me straight here. Thanks

[rocky1138]

I've said it before & I'll say it again. If you're editing non-linear, I think you should be shooting non-linear unless you have time to spare (ie the footage isn't NEEDED for air in 45min), then tape is still a good bet for the cost & quality. I think P2 is next to perfect for local news daily turn shoots, just about everything else... XDCAM takes it.

The thing that I love about P2 is that for 90% of the packs I've shot, I would have loved to have all my SOTs on card #1, all my b-roll on card #2. So that once we get back to the station (or truck) both the reporter & I can start logging the footage we each need w/o waiting on the other person.

I've heard soooooo much about people complaining of how they don't know how they're going to give their P2 footage to the producer at the end of the day. Simple solution, don't shoot P2.

did I help out at all newsshooter? or was my reply just as much of a vent as yours?

[cameragod]

For the last few weeks I’ve been shooting a mix of XD and P2 and while P2 is working out a lot better than I first thought there is a lot of extra time added to my day to make P2 work. Also to make the cards last long enough we are shooting at DVCPro25 which I’ve never liked.
I just feel that Panasonic made a lot of claims at the launch of P2 and very few of them have stacked up.
Is it better than tape? A resounding yes!
Is it better than Disk? Not even close.
With XD I’m a cameraman and my job is over when I hand over the disk.
With P2 I’m a cameraman/data-wrangler/librarian/worried man.

Typical P2 day.
Get into work. Put station gear in car, only 5 of the 10 P2 cards that are supposed to be with the camera, a mix of 4GB and 8GB. First job at 10am. Shoot a quick iv and 5min of GV’s. Have to go straight to a protest after. Reporter goes back in taxi but I can’t give her the card because I might need the memory space. Shoot 20 min of protest, before having to go to Parliament House for question time… I’ve been dreading this, Parliament QT runs over 2 hours and I don’t have enough space. Put in a call for more cards. None available, so I just have to get as much as I can shooting selectively… the cache is a god send in situations like this!
QT is over at 3:30pm meanwhile the reporter who I shot for at 10am is still waiting for me to get back and ingest her stuff.
4pm and everything is being ingested into the Avid server at real time (what happened to drag and drop!!!) I can’t shoot because all that’s all my cards.
Ok now I know a Panasonic rep would say buy more cards, half of mine had been taken by a crew going overseas, but apparently there is no budget for extra cads.
So get a P2 Store. The station has 3 but don’t use them because they have issues. As well as problems with reliability, a tendency to crash the Avid server when attached and the thing about running out of drive letters to name the top two.
Get a fire store. It’s not an option in a news operation… it just isn’t

I can work around the problems with P2 but why should I have too?!!
I don’t want to learn new workflow! I want a workflow that works for me not against me.

Btw this station has been “going” P2 for three years.

[photogguy]

To answer the question of import speed, in the three years I shot XD, import speed was 4x regular speed. If I shot four minutes of video, it took one minute to import the video, using News Edit. The more you shoot, the longer it takes.

[newsshooter]

Both of you have answered my question for sure. P2 is a pain in the butt. You have to be very organized through the workflow of your day. We are also using a 500 gig fire store, but I really don't want to trust a hard drive by its self that can crash and have corrupted files. I filled 4 cards twice today and we had to take an hour to file transfer so we can delete the cards and keep shooting. Everytime I deleted files it gave the producer stomach pains. I think I'll be saving for a XD cam. For those that shoot both can you tell the difference? Doesn't XD cam still look great?

[patssle]

But XDCAM EX is going to solve all the P2 problems...right? ;)

[newsshooter]

Yeah I think the guy that invented P2 got fired and Sony hired him!!! Let's invent a mini blue ray disc for the EX. We all need to get together as photogs. and make our own format and cameras that works for everyone.

[rexreed]

It takes me approx. 6 minutes to transfer an hour of video into our server at the station. Originally we had some problems and it would take 45 minutes or so, but that was a design flaw on our end. We typically drag and drop with no issues.

[Canonman]

But XDCAM EX is going to solve all the P2 problems...right? ;)

The difference is that with the EX camera, recording time in HD will actually be usable, not some 7 minute joke. That means you won't need to buy as many cards to get the job done, and that you'll have ample recording time per card so that you won't be stopping to dump the cards in the middle of things.

But yeah, I still prefer disc over card.

cm

[patssle]

Cards are still ahead of their time. P2 came out a couple years ahead of EX...so the technology just wasn't there like now when EX is finally coming out.

You can shoot 30 minutes of 720p on the 16GB P2 cards.

Eventually both P2 and EX will becoming cheap enough where you can have a 64 or 128 GB card for less than $500 bucks.

[svp]

P2 32GB cards should be out soon. I still hate P2 though. If I shoot 40 minutes of video, it can take longer than 40 minutes to load it when you take into account you have to go through and rename all the clips. The other day I had some free time and tried to rename clips in the camera so I wouldn't have to do it in the edit bay but apparently you can only name a clip BEFORE you shoot it. The camera wouldn't let me change the name of a clip that had already been shot. For me, and I don't speak for anyone but myself, P2 is a pain in the a$$. I delete my cards at the end of the day (to make sure I don't lose my story that day) but we are always shooting stuff that will be used later. Problem is I can't keep this stuff on my cards until it airs and I know one day MediaManager is going to crash and we're going to lose everything. Its AVID, its only a matter of time. What do we do then? I still believe tape is much more reliable than files. Even with those XD disks, there's no guarentee a file won't end up corrupt.

[NEWSSHOOTER3]

P2 32GB cards should be out soon. I still hate P2 though. If I shoot 40 minutes of video, it can take longer than 40 minutes to load it when you take into account you have to go through and rename all the clips. The other day I had some free time and tried to rename clips in the camera so I wouldn't have to do it in the edit bay but apparently you can only name a clip BEFORE you shoot it. The camera wouldn't let me change the name of a clip that had already been shot. For me, and I don't speak for anyone but myself, P2 is a pain in the a$$. I delete my cards at the end of the day (to make sure I don't lose my story that day) but we are always shooting stuff that will be used later. Problem is I can't keep this stuff on my cards until it airs and I know one day MediaManager is going to crash and we're going to lose everything. Its AVID, its only a matter of time. What do we do then? I still believe tape is much more reliable than files. Even with those XD disks, there's no guarentee a file won't end up corrupt.

Not happy with the P2, eh? We'll be P2 in 08, and I'm not sold because of the issues you brought up here. This whole "clip" thing, does a new clip occur every time you start and stop recording? Meaning, the project bin has a few dozen clips in the end? I'll admit, when I have time, I prefer to dump all I shot into one clip and edit from that. I shoot minimally and its been working well for years! I HATE multiple clips...!!! :eek:

I'd like to see 3 good and 3 bad things from some P2 users...?

[cameragod]

I can’t think of one thing that P2 can do that XD doesn’t do as well or better. I do like that cache system on Panasonic cameras better than Sony’s ;)


I think if you spent enough money and time P2 would work well but we are talking news management and I can’t help being cynical. The stations that are attracted to P2 are primarily interested in saving money, that’s fine in the long term as long as they don’t skimp short term in the setup costs and do it properly… good luck with that.

I wouldn’t leave a station because they were P2 but if I had a job offer from two stations and one was XD and the other P2, I’d be looking at the XD, the work load is better.

[Drew Yaussy]

Probably the biggest issue with XD is engineering...1/2" chip for XD - 2/3" chip for P2. Otherwise, it's all about the recording media. For workflow issues, I'd pick the XD.

[amp]

I still hate P2 though. If I shoot 40 minutes of video, it can take longer than 40 minutes to load it when you take into account you have to go through and rename all the clips.

How long does it take you to type? Everyone at my shop can bring in 40 clips totalling 20 minutes and have it ingested and properly labeled in under 10 minutes. I am curious as to how you go about ingesting and labeling.

[cameragod]

How long does it take you to type? Everyone at my shop can bring in 40 clips totalling 20 minutes and have it ingested and properly labeled in under 10 minutes. I am curious as to how you go about ingesting and labeling.


I’d love to know how. I’ve been to four companies that shoot P2 and they are all ingesting at real time or slower. They all say it is theatrically possible to do it quicker just they can’t for some reason. Usually it’s all Avid’s fault… bad Avid… apparently.

[amp]

I believe your slow ingest time is a software problem. The first week we had P2 with our Avid, it ingested in real time. They (Avid) were made aware of the problem and wrote new code for us. Now, it goes about 4X. Hopefully, your engineers have a good relationship with Panasonic and Avid. Luckily, we have some good IT guys.

[Run&Gun]

Probably the biggest issue with XD is engineering...1/2" chip for XD - 2/3" chip for P2.

For the initial adopters, yes, but now there are 2/3" HD XDCAMS.


http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/docs/PDW700_HD1500_broch.pdf

[PopShaker]

We've been p2 for around 8 months or so and I'm thinking your ingestion problems are your avid software. When we first started we were ingesting close to 3-4 (3 min for a 4min clip) now it is at least 1-4, maybe faster.

I actually really like the format. Although I'd bet having the discs is probably better. (I just haven't used them...)

My hvx200 sux though... But that is for a different thread...

[Canonman]

This whole "clip" thing, does a new clip occur every time you start and stop recording? Meaning, the project bin has a few dozen clips in the end?

Currently, that's also how XDCAM HD works. However, the new F335/355 will have the ability to start/stop without generating a new clip each time until you say so. It's possible that the current cameras will get that functionality via a firmware update.

But yeah, think of it in its current state as taking stills with a digital camera. Each press of the shutter generates a separate image file as does each start/stop cycle with the video camera. Personally, I prefer it this way, but I can see how others might not, depending on editing style.

cm

[NEWSSHOOTER3]

Currently, that's also how XDCAM HD works. However, the new F335/355 will have the ability to start/stop without generating a new clip each time until you say so. It's possible that the current cameras will get that functionality via a firmware update.

But yeah, think of it in its current state as taking stills with a digital camera. Each press of the shutter generates a separate image file as does each start/stop cycle with the video camera. Personally, I prefer it this way, but I can see how others might not, depending on editing style.

cm

Okay. I got it now. Just trying to make sure my feeble mind's wrapped around the ins and outs. I'm in our test group, and will be getting a P2 soon. Thanks for the info!

[quicklad]

P2
Good:
1) Tapeless capture, usable files right away, not "captured"
2) 100mbs hd video - the same video as the Varicam, each frame gets it's own compression
3) 4:2:2 compression - much better colorspace for green screen work

extra - they improved on the bad things about the dvx100 - much better lens, better camera controls

Bad:
1) STILL workflow issues two years after introduction - unacceptable
2) No immediate path to RELIABLE archivability (a hard drive is not reliable)
3) Short loads - although shooting a pN format allows 32 minutes of HD on a 16 gig card - the same load as a Beta SP.

Overall - the advantages - quality, over the workflow issues, speed & archivability - make this a better camera for non-news use.

I'm just finishing a long green screen project with this camera and also have worked on some sit down interview type stuff. I have time in between set-ups and interviews, and enough cards, to make it all work. My package includes a laptop, a 'P2 Store', three 8gb cards, two 'pocket drives' and some software upgrades to make it all work.

The "p2 store" is the worst $1700 i have ever spent on equipment - and Panasonics 'upgrade', the "p2 Gear" takes away the storage capability and adds a screen - for DOUBLE the price. Think of the laptop you can get with $3400 - and a laptop has a screen and connects to a hard drive just like the p2 gear.

The p2 workflow changes from job to job depending on the production itself. There is a learning curve, and I like the workflow and archivability of XD - but I picked the HVX200 because of its video quality with the idea that the workflow issues will get better as will the p2 card situation as well (ie price and size).

So far so good.

[amp]

The "p2 store" is the worst $1700 i have ever spent on equipment


Curious, but why is it so bad? I love my P2 Store.

I am betting one issue you have (and many others have had) is that your still have the Verify Switch (located under the battery) set to "ON". This is a bad idea. It takes twice as long to copy a card because it has to copy the info, then verify that the info you just copied is the same as what is on the card. Simply turn the verify to "OFF". I have never had a problem since I switched it to "OFF". If you leave it ON, you can easily have a corrupt file because if there is any shaking while you are copying, info on the copy could be just slightly different and it won't work right.

[cameragod]

Anyone got a work around for running out of drive letters with the P2 Store?

[quicklad]

Curious, but why is it so bad? I love my P2 Store.


I will try the verify switch, but my issue isn't really with the speed (it's a lot of info to transfer no matter what).

Here's why I think it's the worst $1700 I've ever spent -

It's either a very overpriced card reader or a very under capacity storage device with no upgrade path.

When OS 10.5 comes out and my express card adapter works the way it should - I think it's an ebay item!

[amp]

I agree they are overpriced. They do need to increase the size of the drive. Since we were one of the first stations to go P2 in the nation, we still have 4 GB cards. That means we can fit 15 cards in it. BUT, if you have 16 GB cards, you can only fit 3 cards in. Seriously? Pany, you can do better than that! Give us an upgrade!

[tarzan]

We just got some P2's at our station. I've used them on two packages so far, and both times the editing process was living hell. Some of the things I'm disappointed about with P2:

1...I'd heard about how great it was to have a "pre-record" mode, so you don't miss certain shots or nats that take you by surprise. Bad thing about it, though, is if you have that mode turned on, once you're looking at your clips in the Avid bin, the thumbnails don't show the the main subject you were pointed at when you started "rolling," so to speak, but instead show the first frame of the clip, which is whatever your camera was pointed at 6 seconds before you hit the MCR button. So if you took a shot of a protester holding a sign and yelling something, and 6 seconds prior that, your lens happened to be out of focus and pointed at the pavement, that's what your thumbnail for that clip will show. That SUCKS. It renders thumbnail images USELESS!!! So basically to look for certain shots, I'm clicking into a clip and shuttling thru it in the preview monitor to see what the hell it is, then clicking into another clip just to see what the hell it is, etc.... -UUUGGGGGHHHH!!!! There's GOT to be a BETTER WAY!!!!
Is there any way to change that, either in Avid or in the P2 cameras, so that the thumbnail shows the frame you were on when you started officially "recording?"

2...In the Panasonic training orientation, they told us how each P2 card has 16 GB of space, and there's 4 card slots. At that time, I did the math in my head: 4x16=64Gb. That being the case, why the hell would each card only have 65 minutes of recording time on it? My Tivo has 80Gb of space, and can store 80 HOURS of TV programming. Hell, Joe Sixpack can go to Best Buy or Circuit City and buy an 80 Gig iPod that can store 80 HOURS of movies and TV programs in the palm of his hand!!!!!! So, theoretically, shouldn't a P2 camera be able to store 64 HOURS of raw video, rather than a measely freakin' 4 hours? That's BULLSH!T!!!!!!!!!!!!

3...Not only is the ingest time slow and tedious, but I also have to do this "mount all" crap with my Avid to get it to "recognize" the P2 drive and it's contents. -So that also takes extra time and is a P.I.T.A. I remember the Panasonic reps told us it was a simple drag and drop process. Part of it is, but the sure left out a lot of details.

[newsshooter]

Sure it's an easy drag and drop that takes an hour for an hour 10 minutes of video. The reason 80 hours of movies fit on an Ipod and 80 hours on your Tivo box is the compression rates. I-pods do apple's H264 conversion. You would be able to fit the same amount on an I-pod as you do those cards if your movie was full res. HD or compressed to 4:2:2 MEG 4 like the P2. I'm not shooting P2 or XD cam yet, but I'm laughing at all the reponses to this post because everyone seems to have the same workflow problems with P2. The format sounds fine once you work out all the bugs.

[tarzan]

I think I also read in the P2 user manual they gave us, it said not to expose the cameras to temperatures exceeding 100 degrees Fahrenheit. WHAT??? HELLO!!!!!!! We're in PHOENIX!!!!!!!!!!

[tarzan]

Hey everybody, there's a movie out in theatres about P2:
http://phoenix.cox.net/cci/movie/detail?_mode=view&mid=62379&_action=validatearticle

[detroitsprings]

I shoot on P2 and like it. I have changed the way I Shoot on some things, When I need to move my shot, or zoom in a bit, instead of stopping and staring again, I just continue to roll, that way I have one clip to injest. We also will Link all of our clips together, and then inport, again, 1 clip instead of many clips.

The station I am at at, we edit on Leitch. it is about 3x fast and we are using USB 2.0 cables. I have a powerbook G4, and I slide my card in the computer, and it is 7x fast. WHY did we not get FCP????? FCP and P2 were made to work together.

We also use Proxy cards. We shoot on our P2 cards and a SD card, at a much lower quality. When we are done shooting, I give the reporter the SD card, and they load it on their computer and they log there. They are not using a edit bay.

That helps. Our station is happy with our P2.

[jumpkutz]

The good p2

1) tapeless format
2) cards go directly into laptops
3) (i can't think of a third right now)

The bad p2

1) lack of versatility
2) not broadcast ready like raw tape
3) slow downloading

[cameragod]

Just did two weeks news on P2 before going back for two news weeks on XD.
The LCD on the side of the P2 camera does give truer colour but apart from that I can honestly say XD kicks P2’s ass in every department… can’t think of one reason to go P2.