Sound Problem- DVCam/mini DV

[Graybeard]

I shot a job last week for a new client on DVCam. This is not our usual format (XDCam, or BetaSP), but seeing as they wanted something more compatible with their equipment, which is just a laptop for edit, I put a DVCam DSR1 on the back of a D50WS that we have for the best possible quality.
The sound seemed fine while we were shooting, (listening to return audio on mixer). But the client sends me an email saying the sound is not there, then another saying the sound is distorted, then another with a video clip with distorted sound. I would describe it as a normal track, but with a hollow, warbling, second track playing with it.
My question is, is DVCam sound compatible with a miniDV player. I'm guessing that's the problem, but I can't get the client on the phone, or get them to tell me what kind of equipment they're using, after several requests.
I'm going to ask for the tapes back to play them myself, but in the meantime I thought I'd ask you guys to see what you think. Thanks.

[Hiding Under Here]

When you say MiniDV player that's a little confusing. A basic DVCam VTR like the Sony DSR-11 will record and playback both DVCam and MiniDV. I think the deck itself understands whether it is seeing DVCam or MiniDV. So the deck shouldn't be a problem. If, for some reason, the deck is a MiniDV dedicated unit (and I don't even know if that kind of thing exists) and playing back a DVCam recording, the video itself would be the bigger problem, not the audio.

I think what happens with DVCam and MiniDV is that the tolerance of the digital audio tracks is very narrow and unforgiving. You might hear decent sound in the headphones, but the digitization of the audio, if it's not perfectly recorded, can burn you. I know audio techs have warned me in the past of audio issues with these cameras.

I hope it's something correctable. Good luck.

[Baltimore Shooter]

Hopefully Run&Gun will chime in, he has a D50 w/ (I think) a DSR1, or at least a DVCam back.

Someone told me that w/ digital audio, zero is actually minus 20 or something close to it, though I don't know why. IMO, zero should be zero, not minus anything.

Warren

[F4 Fan]

Having shot mini-DV, DVCAM and DVC-Pro for five or six years now it’s possible that the deck is not reading the tape right. It could be a menu setting – with the DVC-Pro decks there are menu selections that must changed in order for the deck to read a DVCAM tape. It’s kind of like setting your VCR for SP or LP. Or going way back to vinyl records, it’s like playing a 45 at 33 rpm speed.

If the tape was shot in DVCAM they may be playing it back in a DV-SP or mini-DV setting. This could be the problem. Maybe they should try another deck or check the settings. Of course the video is usually jittery as well.

And yes Warren, in the digital world minus 20 db is about where we have to record the audio at. Digital doesn’t have the tolerances that analog does, much less headroom in the audio to work with.

Good luck -reshoots suck.

[Baltimore Shooter]

And yes Warren, in the digital world minus 20 db is about where we have to record the audio at. Digital doesn’t have the tolerances that analog does, much less headroom in the audio to work with.

So why didn't the bone heads that developed digital audio set some sort of standard that so that zero would actually be zero and not minus 20? That would elimate a lot of confusion. What happens when everything is digital - from aquisation to editing (w/o a D/A & A/D media converter) and distribution? Will we set everything at minus 20 from then on or will there be, at some point, a standard where everything is set at zero? You'd think the bozos on the ISO or whatever standardzation board would have forseen this problem and have it figured out.

Okay, end of thread hi-jack

Warren

[Mike]

I own a DSR1 camera back and it should be noted that this deck will only record in DVCam mode. If you are trying to play the tape back in a consumer grade MiniDV (which is really DV format) deck, there will be a compatability problem. Even if you put a MiniDV tape in the DSR1, it will record on it using the DVCam codec. So, make sure the client is playing it back on a DVCam deck.

If the client doesn't have a DVCam deck (and my suspicions are that they don't), you can make a firewire dub from a DVCam deck onto their deck without any generational loss (but there will be an inherent loss in technical quality--which I doubt the client will notice).

[Run&Gun]

I've only used a DSR-1(rented) on my 50 once(I have a PVV-3 Beta back), but everything was fine, we'd do quick tail checks at the end of interviews(just like with Beta or HD or whatever else) to make sure picture and sound were fine. The DSR-1's, just like the PVV-3's, don't have the ability to let you monitor off of the playback heads while you are recording, so if you are monitoring return, you are just hearing the E/E and not what is actually being layed to tape, so there could be the possibilty for overmodulation and you wouldn't know it without checking the meters and checking playback. Digital is very unforgiving when it come to audio. Once it's overmodulated, there's almost no chance of saving it. As stated above, -20 on the camera is where you should set tone(0 on the mixer). Hopefully it is something on the clients end and not yours(we all hate it when we cause a problem), but we've all had to do at least one re-shoot in our careers. Live and learn and good luck.

[Graybeard]

Thanks guys, what your saying is pretty much what I was thinking. This client is a major print magazine that has a website. They're trying to do some basic "street interviews" and pop them on the net. They've done this before, with their own personal mini-DV consumer cameras, and edited on i-movie. Now they wanted a pro crew to shoot it with better quality. I thought the D50 with DVCam would be just right for what they wanted to accomplish, but in retrospect I wish I would have done it in Beta SP. Then they would have been forced to get a professional transfer.
I'm almost sure that the tape we gave them had no problems, sound or picture. My son uses this camera all the time with the DSR-1 on the back, no problem. It looks to me like they're trying to transfer using a mini DV unit.
I'll post on how it shakes out. Thanks again. Bob

[Necktie Boy]

I think the client is trying to playback a DVCam tape in a regular DV Camera. Even if you rode the audio a little hot, the sound should be good. I shot on a DSR-300 all the time...No audio problems if played on a DVCam deck, but I know it will not play in a DV Camera. I did read somewhere that a Sony Mini-DV Cameras will play a DVCam tape. At worst, you will have to dub(firewire) from DVCam to Mini-DV

[2000lux]

Some consuer Sony cameras can play back DV-CAM. Usually it's the ones that have a prosumer DV-CAM version available like the VX-2000 (the consumer version of the PD-150 - I think).

Mini DV tape is so small that the tolerances are really tight. I've heard from some people that often you need to play back the tape from the camera it was recorded in or it's not going to go over the heads right. If they're not trying to play it back out of a plain DV deck, that might be the problem.

DV-CAM mode runs the tape over the heads faster than regular DV so if they were playing it back at DV speed, wouldn't it just sound really slow?

-20 is indeed actually 0 in the digital realm. I know it's silly but there it is. I find that most producers complain this is actually too low and want you to shoot with -12 as 0 which works fine. On the JVC HDV camera you can set zero to be -20 or -12. On the DVX's 0 is -12 permanantly. I had one producer ask me to make -6 zero and I told him (tactfully) that he's the only person who ever asked for that and I really didn't think it was a good idea. You can always boost it in post.