Words from the Wise?

[Monkeyhouse]

I was hoping some of you guys could offer some advice to a newbie in search of some direction.

I started out 2006 interning at great company I hoped to get a job with, but although it went well there just wasn't room for me in their budget. I moved on to a bad scenario in which I was paid about $500 for 5 months of putting in 50-60 hrs a week. After that I was broke and was contemplating getting a "real job", but I was lucky enough to get a few key gigs off of craigslist to keep my rent paid. Now I'm wondering what my next move should be. Eventually I want to be working with higher end equipment and clients. Not shooting for websites with my DVX100a. Do you think I'm better off doing another internship or is it possible to work my way through the ranks on my own? Thanks.

[Hiding Under Here]

Read the Craigslist post that's listed here just a few threads down. I think it talks about the problems you are facing.

Here's my advice -- be prepared to work not as an auteur, a photographer, but as a laborer, a worker, an underling. Learn by watching others who know what they are doing. In order to do that you have to commit yourself to something that isn't glamorous or much fun. Present yourself to production companies as someone willing to do what it takes to learn. Take the low pay for a while. Then look for opportunities. When they present themselves, be courageous and take them.

It's pretty simple. And it's not a matter of camera model numbers. Put yourself in a place where you can be with other people who KNOW what they are doing. Period.

[2000lux]

What's your background? A little more info' would help us give you more specific advice. Are you still in school? Did you just graduate? How much experience do you have?

What do you want to shoot?

We all get in to this business in different ways.

[PHX Shooter]

Where do you live? I have some work in Phoenix I need to hire out.

[Icarus112277]

2 things-
1- if you have a large market to work in you can definitely work your way. Video utilities in this area make between 300-450 a day here.
2-don't knock the small stuff- gear that is. It may not be top of the line broadcast but if you know how to work it a little you can pimp those small cameras out constantly.

to work with higher end equipment and clients you're going to have to pay your dues in one way or another- be it gophering, camera 'utilitizing' (as some of us old utes might), or whatever. It won't happen on its own and you won't get the work without references...and who will give them to you but people you assist, befriend, and learn from?

[Monkeyhouse]

2000lux - I graduated school a couple of years ago with an associates in audio video production. The first year I spent working for free on small sets (mostly stuff involving school) and I did a few small paying projects. By the end of 2005 I thought I was a pro. I got a big dose of reality when I started an internship with a high end production place here in Cincinnati called Lightborne. Technically I was a post-production intern, but I got to work on a couple of large sets as well and I started to get a notion of what it really took to be a professional in this business. I also got a chance to cut my teeth on their AVID Symphony and Media Composer. After that I moved on to a production place that I would rather not name, where I learned a great deal about editing and shooting, but unfortunately I also learned how cut-throat some people in this business are. Finally I got tired of not being paid, and I left that company in August. Since then I have done everything from working as a P.A. on a mid-sized movie set to shooting narratives for a website called realhealth.tv.

Right now, I like to think my skill sets are a lot more advanced then your average AV student out of college, but I understand that it's going to be some years before I can truly say I'm a professional with a straight face. Right now I know how to light a subject so it always looks decent. Sometimes my lighting even looks really good, but most of the time that's more by accident then by design. I also know what footage I need to tell a story and I try to look for different camera angels or perspectives that can spice it up. I'm pretty proficient with AVID and I like to think myself a decent editor.

Eventually I would like to shoot and produce television shows for networks like the history channel or national geographic. So I guess what I'm asking is this. Is what I'm doing now something that could possibly get me to that point, as long as I keep trying to advance my skills and knowledge? I'd like to think so, but I don't want to delude myself either.

PHX Shooter - Unfortunately I live in Cincinnati Ohio, but if you ever have anything in the mid-west let me know. I love to travel.

[Run&Gun]

Am I reading your post correctly? You worked between 1,000 and 1,200 hours for $500 total?!

[Monkeyhouse]

Icarus112277 - I actually love my DVX, but I felt intimadated by all the expensive gear you guys have.
Do video utilities basically function as Camera Assistants?

I'm moving to Philly in the fall so I can be in and around larger markets and hopefully have more opportunity to find work.

[Monkeyhouse]

Run&Gun - Am I reading your post correctly? You worked between 1,000 and 1,200 hours for $500 total?!

To be completely exact it was $650. It started off that the company had a job opening for an editor/shooter. When I went to the interview they said they needed me to intern for a while before they would let me freelance for them. So I busted my butt, and at the end of a month they told me that they would give me a contract to work on the television show they were producing. Anyway very long story short they strung me along for the rest of the summer. They were still saying I might get the contract in August, but by then I figured enough was enough.

Basically what it came down to is they used the chance to work on this television as a golden carrot to get me to come in everyday and work 50-60 hrs per week. A lot of those hours were self-imposed, but there was this unspoken idea that if I didn't work those kinds of hours they would get rid of me and find somebody else. On one hand I realize it was my own fault, because I was way to desperate to please, but....

[Baltimore Shooter]

$650 for 1,000 to 1,200 hours???

Wow, you're like Intern Of The Year!

Warren

[Icarus112277]

$650 for 1,000 to 1,200 hours???

Wow, you're like Intern Of The Year!

Warren


hawhawhawhaw!

Fuk'n grrraaate, man.

Get a little stcker "Hello my name is: intern of the year"

[Dan R.]

Therein lies the problem of doing what you love for a living. It is way too easy for others to take advantage of that enthusiasm and drive.

One of the most important things that anyone can learn getting into TV/film is this: Nobody Cares That You Are a Cameraman- So Just Make Sure You Get Paid! It is great to see the stuff you shoot on the air and see your 'name in lights' (well, err, credits, but it seems that way the first few times) - but really - does the average Joe (outside of your friends and family) really care? They won't even read the credits, much less remember your name five minutes later if they do. Doing what you love is a great thing, but in the end nothing matters but getting a good paycheck for it - or it isn't worth doing as a career. Interning has its place, but no company deserves a blank check of labor from someone starting out.

[Matt Box]

Nobody Cares That You Are a Cameraman- So Just Make Sure You Get Paid!

Good point Dan, while it may help a young kid (the ones doing the craiglist jobs) in a bar get laid on the odd occasion you will pretty much find that 95% of the rest of the population will just not care. Like many people hear I have millions of great stories to tell at the bar. Stories about all the crazy people, places, and things Ive filmed over the years. Well stories don't pay the mortgage and no one at the bar want to hear them anyway.

[Stoney]

There are a couple roads to go down to learn camera work. First is local news. Great place to start and learn how to churn video out... day after day. You learn storytelling there, unlike in many production arenas where you are a cog in the machinery. In local news you do it all on your own, much of the time. Always a need for motivated people to learn the ropes of shooting news.

Another route, which you've taken already, is production work. The production realm is good in many ways because you get exposed to high-end work. However, many times, you pull cables. It sounds like you've done both creative and grunt work.

These options have good and bad aspects to them. News is a great place to learn how to multitask. You quickly get to know what works and what doesn't work when you have daily deadlines. You gain lots of contacts in the television industry, too. However, you have daily deadlines and they can be a real drag. Plus, the local news grinder lets quality slip very easily (many producers have a need to fill black airspace and will accept anything they can get out of a camera or tape!). And, there is the low pay... not as low as $650 for 1000 hours of work but some smaller markets it is barely minimum wage.

Production work can have all sorts of problems too. Many of the above issues are common to the television industry as a whole.

One way I will almost guarantee failure is to strike out on your own, with little training or industry contacts. Owning a camera does not qualify anyone to do a whole lot in the TV business. You will be dead in the water as a serious freelance cameraman. Basically, like many said, do the grunt work.

What is grunt work? PA work is a start. Learn audio production. Many shooters got their start as audio technicians. Hell, I still run audio once in a while even though that isn't where I started out. Find a local network-level freelance cameraman in your area and ask him or her to hire you as a grip or extra hands. Volunteer if you have to.

Do not ever work for someone who takes as great advantage as your previous experience did. There are a lot of sharks in television so keep your eyes peeled.

No shame in making a paycheck.

[freedom]

A lesson learned a very long time ago...
I was pitching my services to a busy production co. The producer told me they would not put their production in the hands of an inexperienced shooter. You are a small part of the budget but a big part of the sucess. Why would a producer take a chance on you to save a few bucks. Now some would but not mainstream producers with real budgets on the line.

I learned more about shooting in 2 years of working as an assistant cameraman than in any other part of my career. I did 2 years as a PA, 1 year as a grip then 2 as an A/C. The shooters I was assisting started passing me overflow work and I started shooting faster than I expected. Then it was a slow, rocky climb up the ladder from there.
Today there's not nearly as much call for A/C's. But there are plenty of other support jobs to line up with. The first question you need to answer is what part of the market you want to work in. News, commercials, corp, features, weddings are all very different and do not have much overlap. Pick one and start working in the support jobs within that realm.
That will be .02 please.

[Monkeyhouse]

I wanted to thank everybody for answering my questions so honestly. Good advice is something I have had a hard time coming by. It reinforces my belief that I really do love this industry.

Freedom - one more question. I definitely don't want to do weddings! I love movies, but I don't want to make them. What I really want to work on is non-fiction television programs, like history channel and national geographic. (or close to it) So would television news be my best be to eventually lead me to these areas?

[freedom]

monkey
I have never shot news but now almost all I do is Discovery, History, HGTV, etc. The producers I work with tell me they get a lot of news shooters but they feel many news guys don't have the broad range of experience. That's not to say all news shooters are not good enough, plenty are but many are not. I keep preaching that a news only experience is too limited. Continue to do the commercial & corp production work to get a broader range of experience. The editing of your own packages is a good thing and that was my weakest link going in so I won't discount news althogether but I found shooting for the editor instead of for the director/script was an easy transition.

I had 15 years experience plus all the needed gear on hand to get into the cable doc realm. These companies want somebody who can light fast, shoot well and make something out of nothing. They do not need editing skills. Although the ability to shoot for the editor is very much needed and the less the field producer needs to dictate every shot, the better.

I had a set of skills going in and did 4 years of sales effort to get up to the level of a regular flow of work in this arena. That was mostly cold calling around the country. Now that I'm on many lists, I don't do as much cold calling but mostly reminder calls to existing clients. I still find it hard to get on some company lists even with my regular experience at their level.
I suspect that there's a guy or two in every market now who is on the list of all the major production companies. I managed to get in fairly early on and count myself fortunate in my timing. This is similar to many other areas. CBS, ABC, NBC & ESPN all have their regulars in each market and now I've managed to carve out that niche with the cable network production companies.

If you want to get into this, you'll need several things.
1) A gear package; although the camera isn't as important now. I've rented 4 different cameras in the last year and had the client provide 3 others. But I provide all the rest of the gear. You would need easy access to a good rental company.
2) A good demo reel. You can mail a DVD or have video clips on line. It doesn't have to be exactly network stuff but it should have the same level of work. IOW, it could contain corporate work but shot in their style.
3) Tons of patience. Most of the busy companies already have crews around the country they call on. So you will be second or third or fourth on the list. You have to wait for the other 3 or 4 guys to all screw up, get too busy, move or retire. I've got one client I've been after for 4 years. I'm waiting for their regular guy to piss them off and I'll be in for sure! I have another client that tells me they love my work but the 'other' guy has been with them much longer and they feel a loyalty to him. I'm firmly in second place. I guess that's better than 5th place and I respect their loyalty. There are some companies that have short memories.

This is a crowded market. When I started shooting corporate, my market was short on shooters. It got way oversaturated and that's when I started chasing the cable networks. Now this, and every market is getting saturated. So you really have to stand out with good work and a great attitude. And you will need patience.
I suggest you start out as a soundie. Seems every market is short on soundies. You will get to work with a lot of different shooters and production companies. Some shooters will treat you very well and will offer overflow work to you eventually if they are comfortable with you. That's how I got started, by overflow work from shooters I was working for. I freelanced a total of about 4 or 5 years before starting to shoot. I suspect that in this market it will take longer because of the glut of shooters.
I've sen that it is very hard to move out of one level of production into another. So if you start shooting a low level of production, you will be stuck there and find it very hard to get out.

Good luck!

[Stoney]

I wanted to thank everybody for answering my questions so honestly. Good advice is something I have had a hard time coming by. It reinforces my belief that I really do love this industry.

Freedom - one more question. I definitely don't want to do weddings! I love movies, but I don't want to make them. What I really want to work on is non-fiction television programs, like history channel and national geographic. (or close to it) So would television news be my best be to eventually lead me to these areas?

TV news is just one place to start. Like Freedom says, there are lots of ways to go. What news gets you is a foot in the door. But, you have to expand your skills beyond news, like freedom says. For instance, I shot news for many years then went into a small production house as a shooter then went to a cable network as a shooter. I have been in the business for eleven years and that barely qualifies me to get on people's radar as a freelancer.

There are very few shortcuts. The process will take years of work.

If you want to do cable production, which there is a lot of these days, my advice would be to align yourself with a local freelance shooter (or production company) that works on cable programming. Do their grunt work for a while (get paid, though). Here in San Fran, there are at least three production co's that produce for cable (HGTV, History, Discovery, etc.). PA for a place like that. They all have young kids out of school who they hire... because they work on tight budgetary margins. That leaves a lot of opportunity for people just like you.

[Graybeard]

You've gotten some terrific advice so far, but I'd like to stress that for the direction you are going, documentary type shooting, local news, at whatever level, is a very good training ground. I started out in the 115th market. You have access to tools, daily problems to overcome, technically and editorially, and daily feedback on your work. You can use those tools in "off hours" to put together a reel that you can be proud of. Which is invaluable for jumping to the next level. You may not want to become an editor, but being forced to edit your own stuff every day is an invaluable experience.
Make all your mistakes at that level, learn from your more experienced co-workers, build a reel, and plot to make your next move. All while earning a paycheck.

[Icarus112277]

Icarus112277 - I actually love my DVX, but I felt intimadated by all the expensive gear you guys have.
Do video utilities basically function as Camera Assistants?

I'm moving to Philly in the fall so I can be in and around larger markets and hopefully have more opportunity to find work.

True you won't get on any big show with that cam but there is work for it.

And yes video utilities are basically camera assistans- main duties include cabling, building cams, and coiling cable for the handhelds.

[Monkeyhouse]

True you won't get on any big show with that cam but there is work for it.

And yes video utilities are basically camera assistans- main duties include cabling, building cams, and coiling cable for the handhelds.

Cool that's what I thought. I definitely don't have a problem working under people for a while, even if it is for ten years as long as I can get my foot in the door. Maybe I will try doing sound for a while, I already have a pretty good ear for it as I spent the last 10 years playing in bands.
I was wondering how the East Coast is for jobs .
Specifically I'm think about Philly. For a few reasons. 1. It's a bigger market then I am in now (Cincinnati) 2. I figure maybe it's close to NYC so I could always go up their for work if I needed to. 3. Cost of Living won't be as bad as New York.

[2000lux]

You're certainly asking the right people which is great.

When I started out I really didn't know any one like the people you're talking to now. I didn't know how to reach them and I'm not sure I even would have known what to ask. I just new that I liked working in TV and that I definitely wanted to be a cameraman. Unfortunately I figured that out after college so I didn't go to film school. I have a psychology degree. I've learned pretty much everything I know on the job.

I first got interested in shooting news because most of the good shooters I had worked with, had worked in news for a while. I figured that it was probably a good place for me to learn too; sort of like boot camp. Then I got bitten by the journalism bug and stayed in much longer than I thought I would. Being a journalist is a vocation, not just a job.

Since I moved in to freelancing a little over a year ago I've found that having a news background is kind of a stigma in some circles. People think you shoot every thing hand held, weirdly white balanced, and that the only light you know is the camera light. They say, "We really don't need a news shooter..." When I finally get them to look at my demo reel, many come around. I often get calls that start with "We really liked the lighting on your reel. We'd like you to..."

I wouldn't say don't try news. I think it's a great training ground. As was said before you have to do every thing: shooting, sound, editing, even field producing. You do all kinds of stories, under all kinds of conditions, under a lot of pressure; and you do it every day. Just keep your long term goals in mind and move on when you're ready.

I still do some sound tech' work because it gives me a chance to learn from more advanced shooters. Making good connections with them has many benefits too.

What I've always wanted to do is to work on Fronline, Nova, National Geographic Channel, Discovery Channel, etc. Most of the people I've met who do that kind of work actually have film backgrounds which suprised me for some reason. I've realized that this is a long term goal and so I'm trying to be patient as I get more interesting and higher end gigs, and work towards that goal.

Right now I want to get some real HD experience (not just HDV) because I know that it will help me get in to that circle. It seems to be a catch 22 situation though. One either need to have the experience already, or be super established. Maybe I'll take a Craigslist gig to get the expeience I crave...

I think that's enough stream of conciousness writting from me for one night.

[Icarus112277]

Cool that's what I thought. I definitely don't have a problem working under people for a while, even if it is for ten years as long as I can get my foot in the door. Maybe I will try doing sound for a while, I already have a pretty good ear for it as I spent the last 10 years playing in bands.
I was wondering how the East Coast is for jobs .
Specifically I'm think about Philly. For a few reasons. 1. It's a bigger market then I am in now (Cincinnati) 2. I figure maybe it's close to NYC so I could always go up their for work if I needed to. 3. Cost of Living won't be as bad as New York.

First off, if you're working under anyone for 10 years you're doing something wrong. Five years, MAX, before you switch careers.

As far as sound, its not a bad idea to have some experience with it, but I would highly discourage going into it full-time. You might get too far down that path to switch back to video, and you may get pigeon-holed (oh yes it happens).

I know some people who come from Philly to NYC for work but they're getting a rate that makes it worth it. This is more of a subjective thing, but I wouldn't really recommend Philly- how much non-news production is done there? KNow how much is done in the city and the area? I don't think anyone really does...every time I think I've worked with everyone, in every house, someone I've never heard of calls me to work for them. Its almost unlimited as long as you're ready to work hard, FOCUS your attention on getting work, and have an 'IN' of course. One 'in' gets you in the first door, where you can cut your teeth a bit. If you have the desire and potential to be a good worker people will recognize it and you will be filling in for people better than you on other gigs when they get double-booked. Then they will let you have clients, or give you contacts for stuff they don't have time for anymore. Once you have your own contacts you are in- it grows fast.

But yes it is expensive and very hard at first. But the experience will make you stronger, though a short stay in Philly probably won't kill you...though it may delay you. When I first got to the city I got a LOT of last second work (ie sick calls or whatever). It was imperative that I as close. I worked in a restaurant for about a week before I had to quit- getting too much workto have another job. But being close and taking the work always got me higher on the list- crewers want to make the least amount of calls possible. Doing a little bit of work here and there in the city might be harder than you think. But give it a try- it can't hurt...although I wouldn't sign any long term leases. If you're as motivated as you sound and have some talent and are reasonably intelligent and balanced person you should have NO problem getting ahead fast.

Most importantly, be professional. Remember names, write down dates and phone numbers, answer your phone, return calls immediately even if you can't do the job, dress decently show the desire to get the necessary results. Don't bitch and moan. Smile. Make friends and small talk but always be ready to turn on the razor sharp get-down-to-business side at a moments notice.

ONe thing I've found and been extremely lucky with is that true professionals- the type of veterans other pros speak of with reverance- don't mind answering a couple questions for a well-intentioned and respectful newcomer. When I was starting as a utility I befriended a couple vets and asked them to go through every switch on the camera that I didn't know. I took notes, and of course bought the guy lunch for a day. Knowledge is important but second to attitude. Both is golden. I recently had one of THE BEST people at my psotion teach me a new skill in order to fill in for him on a VERY FUN and VERY well paid show. Filling in for him is awesome enough having him come in early to teach me a piece of equipment (that is all over the place) is indescribable. Its respect, but also the fact he has confidence- that I have the talent, am reasonably smart and adaptable, that I won't lose my cool and that I will get the **** done, and that I WON"T STEAL HIS CLIENT- never give your card out or accept work from somenone else's client.

End of drunk rant.

[Baltimore Shooter]

You might get too far down that path to switch back to video, and you may get pigeon-holed (oh yes it happens).

Indeed it can.

Warren