?XDCAM HD is the new Betacam?

[Nino]

There’s an interesting Sony advertising banner on Creative Cow that starts by saying “XDCAM HD is the new Betacam” There are actually some interesting links off that banner.
I guess I wasn’t far off when I assumed that based on the early marketing strategies Sony was indeed trying to make the XD HD the Betacam Replacement, this is however the first time that I’ve seen Sony actually putting it in writing.

[Shootblue]

They need to hurry up and get it out and about then. Some improvements are needed if they want to make it "all that". A crappy 1/2 inch model with crappy specs isn't helping their cause. Things like a bad low light sensitivity coupled with a junky S/N ratio and noisy gain aren't too appealing.

[Douglas]

"XDCAM HD is the new Betacam"

That's exactlty what I stated right here 6 months ago. If XDCAM HD isn't going to replace Betacam as the dominant format, then nothing will.

Crappy? Even in SD mode the F350 looks better than a D600 or HL59 -- plus you get HD, 24P, 30P, and a tapeless format. I'm finding that the need for a 2/3" camera is overrated. Why not 4/5" or 1"? The only thing that makes 2/3" special is that that is what we've been using for 2 decades. So what? Technology changes and 2/3" may not be needed anymore.

Doug

[Shootblue]

Well, I'm glad you disagreed...otherwise I wouldn't have looked and saw that the Varicam, HDCam 730, HDX900, and I am guessing a couple other cameras are all 54db of S/N...the same as the XDHD. It is a bit low at F9, though I suppose if you are used to shooting with a D600, it would be perceived as better. With the variety of shooting conditions that we face, I really believe that F11 is the minimum that you need. There are a lot of dark places we find ourselves in. But, I am sure you can get by. I have read a couple places, including here, that it does have a noisy gain pattern. Perhaps that is because you have like five times the information presented in HD, so it appears worse, idk.

[Nino]

Am I starting troubles again?

[Shootblue]

No, I don't think you are causing trouble at all. I like the XDCam system overall. I think it needs some tweaking, some of which would be less compression in HD and things like improving the light sensitivity. While I think Panasonic makes a very nice upper level camera, such as the SDX-800, they lack the portability in P2. XDCam solves this by cheap discs and large record times.


There is a good battle in the arena of price...Sure the 530 makes a great picture. But it's list is almost three times the Panasonic competitor, the P2 spc700. (I say competitor because the differences are mainly 24p and some cinegamma junk, though the SDX-800 still varies from the 530 by almost one and a half times the price). Even with a couple grand in cards, its still not at all a bad deal for the Panasonic. Sony has to get the price down for these things to catch on. I don't disagree that they are great cameras, but in these days of budget consciousness going all the way up to the network level, it could kill them. That being said, the steady business that some shops are doing in capacitor replacement for DVCPro cameras could reveal the real cost difference.

[Douglas]

To call a camera "crappy" because it's bad in low light seems a little short sighted. I NEVER shoot in low light. In fact, I have -3db turned on 99.9% of the time with an ND filter. For that .1% of the time that I need low light capablity, I'll live with it whatever it looks like. Unless you're shooting run-and-gun news, lowlight capablity seems like a really insignificant thing to worry about.

In fact, I'm not even sure if it really does look like crap in low light. I'll have to take your word for it because it's not something I've ever bothered to check out. In truth, I've never noticed the picture from the F350 to look crappy in any situation I've used it in.

Doug

[SimonW]

Agreed totally.

[dinosaur]

mms://wm.vitalstreamcdn.com/sony_vitalstream_com/Eldred_pdwf350.wmv

Jody Eldred's demo video WMV

or follow ">> Shooting with the PDW-F350" link at http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/xdcamhd_gallery_jeldred.shtml

[dhart]

I think this new "betacam" decision will be settled in post-production rather than in the field. in other words, will post production facilities purchase enough playback units so a producer can be reasonably assured they can transfer the footage (bits) over to their favorite NLE system? That remains to be seen.

[Douglas]

If Sony were smart they would release a no-frills XDCAM HD external disk drive. No LCD, no video playback, no record, just file transfer to a computer via Firewire. I"ll bet they could build it for under $500. Imagine how quickly this format would be accepted if every client could simply buy a $500 drive and have direct access to the XDCAM HD disks.

And even if it it cost Sony more than $500 to build them -- so what? Lose money on the players. That's what Microsoft does with XBox.

A low-cost player is the only link missing in the chain of production.

Doug

[SimonW]

You might be in luck. Apparently at the last NAB they showed the PC mounted XDCAM drive. Seems like they still intend to release it.

[Baltimore Shooter]

No, mini dv is the new Betacam. All you need is a $200 camera from Best Buy. MR and NBS said so, so it must be true ;)

mms://wm.vitalstreamcdn.com/sony_vitalstream_com/Eldred_pdwf350.wmv

Jody Eldred's demo video WMV

or follow ">> Shooting with the PDW-F350" link at http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/xdcamhd_gallery_jeldred.shtml

The quality of that video was incredible! That video and the Sony product demo video of the F350 were amazing, not just in the quality of the images the camera produces, but the quality of the video once it's encoded for the web. A high quality like that will help to blow open the door for broadcasting on the internet.

I don't disagree that they are great cameras, but in these days of budget consciousness going all the way up to the network level, it could kill them.

Jody Eldred, the Director/Cameraman in the video said the HD XD is about $25k, that's no different than the DVCPro cameras, so I don't think it'll make much difference to the bean counters. And the DCVPro camera is only SD, not an HD camera. So you get HD for the same price as that crappy SD camera is. It's a no-brainer.

Warren

[PHX Shooter]

Warren, I gots to agree with you, those videos were great. I've been curious about the dynamic range of the HD XDCAMs and now I knows. I wonder how much it would cost to pick one up in Singapore, hmmmmm. I do need a vacation and I haven't been there since I was in the Navy.

[must-c-tv]

PHX - the best guy in Singapore is Derrick Ang of LSV.

www.lsv.com.sg

[freedom]

It's one thing to buy a lens in Singapore but if the warantee doesn't travel with a camera back to your home I would be wary. Especially with a new design and a pretty unique one at that. A lens can be sent to any lens repair shop but an XD camera isn't a common repair item.
It would have to be one hell of an attractive package for me to 'ride bareback' without protection!

Question to those who are using the XD-HD...
Without revealing your specific clients, can you name networks or shows that are accepting this format?
Thanks

[must-c-tv]

Freedom,

I don't know about the US, but my Betacam SX from Singapore came with a worldwide Sony warranty.

I have taken into the Sony shop for very minor things in Dubai (cleaning/check up after Iraq War) and Beijing, and Sony has been fast with good service in both locations.

The USA may be different and problematic just because it's the US. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case...

[Canonman]

Question to those who are using the XD-HD...
Without revealing your specific clients, can you name networks or shows that are accepting this format?
Thanks

Discovery Channel HD is accepting this camera for aquisition if you use the HQ (35mbs bite rate) setting.

And BTW, a warning to potential out of country buyers. My camera developed a shutter problem in late June and had to go back to Sony for warranty repair. It had a fried chip resistor on the pcb that controls the shutter circuit. They had to expedite a board from Japan. About 11 days end to end.

Unlike earlier tape based cameras, Sony gives two years, parts and labor on the XDCAM units so I'd think twice about scrimping on warranty coverage. Just a thought.

cm

[Run&Gun]

Another waranty story: A fellow shooter here purchased an XDHD in May, during the first couple of days a major problem developed- the camera would not eject the disk. SONY overnighted a brand new replacement to him. I don't think that they would do that on a gray market item in the US.

[Grip]

And for those looking to edit with a NLE, I believe Avid MC is the only thing that can handle the 35mbs bite rate. FCP might be touring with the camera, but does not support anything beyond 25mbs

[SimonW]

Wait till IBC.

[Canonman]

And for those looking to edit with a NLE, I believe Avid MC is the only thing that can handle the 35mbs bite rate. FCP might be touring with the camera, but does not support anything beyond 25mbs

Nope, Sony Vegas currently supports only 35mbs and Avid Liquid 7 supports 35 mbs as well as Canopus Edius Broadcast. You are quite right about Apple/Sony as I use FCP and I'm po'd at Apple right now. The issue isn't the transfer software, it will handle anything the camera/decks throw at it. It's Apple not having a compatible codec.

And a slight correction, FCP handles only 25mb at present. It won't do 18 or 35 both of which are variable bit rate which leads me to think that is where the problem lies... variable bit rate.

Here's the silly part. I can overcrank in 35 mbs mode above 30 fps which drops the vertical resolution in half and the bitrate gets halved to 17.5 VBR. FCP has no problem reading it.

You do have the option of course to capture via HDSDI if you have a board installed for that. You can also hook up the firewire cable simultaneously and use it for controlling the transport.

cm

[SimonW]

Urr, Vegas? Vegas 6 currently supports DV25 and IMX50 flavours, but not HD. Although Sony did make a press release that they will be demoing XDCAM HD capability at IBC with Vegas 7.

[Dedline]

Sony already offers an external disk drive unit but only for SD units at $4950. It's supposed to operate as a firewire external drive so I wonder if one could just stick an HD disk in and see if it'll read the files.
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=10014&id=78599

[Canonman]

Urr, Vegas? Vegas 6 currently supports DV25 and IMX50 flavours, but not HD. Although Sony did make a press release that they will be demoing XDCAM HD capability at IBC with Vegas 7.

Yes, I knew about full XDCAM HD support in the upcoming Vegas 7 release. I believe the existing HD support comes by way of the Cineform codec you get with the Sony package. I emailed and asked specifically about this to a Vegas 'power user' whose initials are DSE. Ring any bells? Trust me, he knows Vegas inside and out.

cm

[PHX Shooter]

Another option is MPEG Pro HD from a company called Main Concept (http://www.mainconcept.com/site/index.php?id=7850), they make a plug-in for Premiere Pro that is supposed to import MXF files. Apparently, you have to import it as a 25Mb file and the change the prefs in Premiere.

BTW, I was being a bit glib about the whole Singapore thing, don't need to hijack this excellent thread.

[Lensmith]

a warning to potential out of country buyers. My camera developed a shutter problem in late June and had to go back to Sony for warranty repair. It had a fried chip resistor on the pcb that controls the shutter circuit. They had to expedite a board from Japan. About 11 days end to end.

Be thankful your camera wasn't a Panasonic.

You'd still be waiting for the parts.

Eleven days! I had to wait over three months for a part from Panasonic...and I guess you can tell I'm still a little bitter about that! ;)

[SimonW]

I emailed and asked specifically about this to a Vegas 'power user' whose initials are DSE. Ring any bells? Trust me, he knows Vegas inside and out.

Yeah, but its nothing to do with handling of XDCAM files. Cineform is just an intermediatary codec for editing with. Vegas 6 will not handle XDCAM HD files in any way or form. What DSE would be referring to is that when he used the F350 he had to ingest the footage via SDI (because Vegas 6 could not take the HD MXF files), and he would have transcoded to the Cineform codec.

DSE certainly knows Vegas, but he should well know that the current version will not take XDCAM HD other than through downcoverted firewire to SD, or via SDI. DSE stated that XDCAM SD was a standard feature on Vegas 6 when it was first released too. But that feature only came about several updates later.

[Canonman]

Be thankful your camera wasn't a Panasonic.

You'd still be waiting for the parts.

Eleven days! I had to wait over three months for a part from Panasonic...and I guess you can tell I'm still a little bitter about that! ;)

I'd be very bitter if that camera was my only bread and butter. I have to say that Sony treated me very well. The tech I talked to on the phone wasted no time calling me back the next day after I emailed a sample video showing the problem. They wanted the camera ASAP because they were concerned about this being a looming headache affecting several units as opposed to an isolated incident.

My only gripe would have been that they didn't give me a notice when they sent the camera back by Fedex. Fedex won't deliver without a signature and I was just leaving when I saw the truck come down the street behind me. Intuition told me to go back and sure enough, he was delivering the camera.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with Panasonic. I feel very lucky now.

cm