Getting Ripped Off

[Hiding Under Here]

I have managed to keep my losses in this business to a minimum. But when they occur, when people rip me off, I find it torques me to extremes.

Here's the story.

I have a small (extremely small) side business selling raw footage of Boston scenics. I started it back in 2004 when the Democratic convention was in town. And I am very interested in this kind of product for the future. But that's beside the point.

I got a call from a production company in Seattle. A woman called and we spoke briefly. They wanted a copy of the reel. I looked them up on the web. They're legit. I sent the reel with a bill inside. Okay, that was overly-trusting, maybe even downright naive. Mea cupla. That's who I am. And maybe why when it gets violated why I get so pissed.

So the bill says net-10 days. I wait. No payment. I give it two weeks. Then I call. The woman won't come to the phone but she returns an email. They'll send the check tomorrow. very sorry for the delay. Eleven days later. No check. I call. Yes she's in. Who's calling? Hold on. Sorry. She's not answering my pages. -- That's when I ask for her voice mail. Oh, she stopped taking voicemail awhile ago -- did away with the service. -- That's such a crappy lie.

Now I know. These folks plan on outright stealing this reel of b-roll from me. They have no intention of paying. None of returning it. I can't fathom that a legitimate production company would be so dihonest. It blows my mind. I'm many things, but a thief? A liar? Dishonorable? No.

I'd like to know how other people would handle this. I know what I did wrong. I know how to fix it in the future. I won't do it again.

Also, if anyone is from Seattle, I'd like to ask a few questions about this production company on the back channel.

Thanks.

[Ed_Scott]

I think a legal type letter - perhaps from an attorney, should set them straight. And be sure to put in the letter something about collecting ten times the amount should they use the footage without your permission. Copyright laws will actually work in your favor on this.

Good Luck!

[BluesCam]

Yes, a media law attorney. That's what I would do. I'm sorry to hear about this. There are obviously plenty of crooks out there. I hope it resolves in your favor.

[Matt Box]

paging Warren......

[Sean-1966]

Maybe it's time we started posting these company name somewhere.

[Douglas]

Yes, a media law attorney. That's what I would do.

Really? It's just an uncollected debt at this point. Until the video is actually used someplace there's no copyright violation. Do you think an attorney is going to take on a $500 uncollected invoice for a 33% cut? He'd laugh you out of his office.

It might be worth pursuing if/and/when the video actually get's used someplace, but then you've got to get a copy of it and prove your damages.

There's no good answer to getting stiffed.

Doug

[Graybeard]

Maybe it's time we started posting these company name somewhere.

Exactly,why not post their name? And spread it around.

Save your brothers some grief, and make sure it costs them a lot more than they gained by cheating you.

If you're still playing this out, I understand, maybe I'm too quick to go to Defcon 4.

[Shootblue]

Wiki "medieval torture devices" and you should find some creative ways to get the to talk. My personal favorite "the pear" should allow them enough room to fix their rectal-cranial inversion.

On a side note I am getting something just short of the runaround by trying to get money back on a camera that has been returned...because it had dead pixels that are not feasible to fix, though he said it had no dead ones. I don't think I am being unreasonable by doing it when they are visible at 0db...bastard.

[Graybeard]

[QUOTE= On a side note I am getting something just short of the runaround by trying to get money back on a camera that has been returned...because it had dead pixels that are not feasible to fix, though he said it had no dead ones. I don't think I am being unreasonable by doing it when they are visible at 0db...bastard.[/QUOTE]

The problem is, you gave them money before you could check the camera out.
When I buy used gear, I have the seller send it to Roger Macie. With the understanding that Roger will thoroughly check it out and tell me, and the seller, what it needs, if anything. Then, with that estimate, I can feel confident that I know what I'm getting. We can negotiate a price, Like, "I'll pay you what you're asking, minus what it cost to bring it back up to spec." If the seller won't go for that, and we can't make a deal, then he gets his camera back. He pays for shipping, and I pay Roger's bill.
That way, he's out some bucks for misrepresenting the camera, and I pay the bill for the checkup and estimate. But I'm not stuck with a camera that needs more work than I expected.

[Flaca Productions]

Do you think an attorney is going to take on a $500 uncollected invoice for a 33% cut? He'd laugh you out of his office.


i have a good relationship with a few lawyers that i've done repeated pieces and live shots with over the years. while i'm not a regular client of any of them, i'm sure they would be happy to shoot a letter off on my behalf if i asked nicely. this might be a good chance to foster a relationship.

[Shootblue]

We had agreed on a 72 hour review period. It took me just a couple hours after I got it to see that it had a problem. He was pissed when I called him and reluctantly returned it. It was a good deal...d35ws, 12x6.5 lens, low hour pvv3 and batteries for 8k. I didn't want to have to start the search over, but there was no reasonable way to fix the pixels. 7k for a new block is not gonna happen.

I am sorry that I know more than some guy who shoots a show for FSN about a particular technical aspect but I am not going to get stiffed because he has a problem.

The other thing that pisses me off is that it took him a week to get back to me about returning the money after he got the cam back. He then emailed asking for an address for a check to be sent to me. Since I still hadn't got the check, I asked him if he had got the email with my address. He then replied asking for me to send him a paypal request. I'm very close to letting the world know about a particular individual.

[news-shooter]

I too am having trouble collecting from a client due since April.
Perhaps we should start a thread or posting somewhere shouting out these deadbeat production companies so others wont get ripped off

[Ed_Scott]

I also have a good relationship with an Attorney. He has in the past wrote a short and direct letter that got results. Hopefully Tom, you have the same type of relationshiop with a Lawyer that would be willing to help you out.

[Birdy]

Hiding,

Could you PM me the name of the production company in Seattle? I'll be hiring a crew out of either Seattle or Portland in the next week, and I want to avoid them. We are shooting in both cities.

[Baltimore Shooter]

Wow Tom. I know how you feel. Now you know why I demand payment BEFORE the tapes are sent out. I've been burned a few times too, that's when I started my policies.

Now that this is in the past tense, I would draft a demand letter yourself, then have an attorney look at to give his nod of approval. It's more of a business issue than one that would require an entertainment attorney. Demand payment within a certain period of time (say 15 days) or you will report them to the appropriate credit bureaus. I assume they're a small company, not a large company that would laugh at a negative Dunn & Bradstreet report.

I would also remind them that you are prepared to sue them in your state. If you sue them, they'd either have to appear in court (which of course, they wouldn't bother flying all the way out for that, thus you'd win) or they'd have to hire an attorney in your state to represent them (which would cost them 5-10 times what you're suing for), so they'd probably pay your invoice (plus late charges) just to resolve the matter. However, they may not even pay attention to you til you file suit. Then, all of a sudden, they're eager to get it resolved, they certainly don't want to pay their attorney's fees or have to appear in court to resolve the matter. However, this scenario involves more work on your end, but it would be worth it just to know those bastards had to pay.

As others mentioned, you could start another thread on here and other media related message boards and out them, put their name, address and phone number in bold. Then send your contact at the company an email with links to said threads. The embarrassment may (I stress may) make them pay up. They couldn't sue you for libel as long as what you say is the truth.

It's a bummer, I know. It makes your blood boil just knowing you got burned. But then that's why I have the policies that I do.

Good luck,
Warren

[Hiding Under Here]

Thanks for the replies.

I didn't charge them up front for a number of reasons. Time being one of them. Trust another. But I also think I didn't value my product highly enough. I guess I thought that if I got burned, what's the harm? It's only a tape. Looking at it now, though, I see the flaw in that kind of thinking.

I think the next few steps have to be taken very carefully. I wrote the woman who called to purchase the b-roll a very brief email. In it I asked her straight out if she had any intention to pay me. I pijnted out tat she had already violated two agreements to do so. The first was our intitial phone call and the second was an email that I have saved whwre she promises to send a check the next day.

If I get no response to my email I will send a letter to the principals of the company. It will be a demand for payment. Nothing more. I will attach a copy of her email to show that she has agreed to pay me. I will also attach a copy of the FedEx receipt (with their FedEx number) that demonstrates I sent the product. Then I'll wait a little bit and see what transpires. If I get no result I will then make a phone call. If, after that, I get nothing I will do what you are thinking Warren and file a small claims suit here in Massachusetts against the company.

This is not a company that does photography by the way. They have a website and seem to focus on post and animation. If I do get burned, I will certainly make their name public here.

[freedom]

So lets assume Tom files in small claims court and wins. How can he enforce collection? Some small claims courts will garnish wages if you win against an individual in your state. I won a small claim judgement against a repair shop many years ago and the court gave them 6 months to pay installments.
But it will be interesting to see what could be done against an out of state company.
Good luck Tom.

[dinosaur]

This should not be construed as legal advice. If this were me, and the client continued their action by not paying for copyrighted stock footage material, I would try to find their end user if possible. The client to whom THEY provided your stock video to. That would be absolute proof of use without permission. I would then notify the end user that both parties are in violation of your copyright and to cease and desist in its use or face legal action in accordance with the U.S. Copyright Code.

A small claims award in Mass. by default, will only cost you more money in filing fees and court costs. The likelihood that action in a local Boston court will gain you any monetary return is almost nil. One could use the "heavyweight" arm twisting of a possible large five figure fine within the U.S. Copyright code to convince the Seattle based company to immediately comply with a demand for payment. A certified lawyer's letter or notice that I was contacting the U.S. Atty. in the Seattle district would serve as wake up notice that I was serious about enforcement of my copyright and that should precipitate payment. I would then give them 15 calendar days to make payment before filing any papers with Seattle's Federal District Court.

There is huge difference in enforcing copyright for the use of stock footage vs. work for hire, which this is not.

[Baltimore Shooter]

So lets assume Tom files in small claims court and wins. How can he enforce collection?

Refer to my previous post. I first reported a client who owed me money to Dunn & Bradstreet. I figured if nothing else, they'd have something negative on their D&B report. As it turned out, that got one client off their ass to finally pay me. Everytime I contacted them, it was just excuse after excuse, but when they got a call from D&B collections dept, they paid up promptly.

With another company (in NY) I reported to D&B, the company actually gave them excuse after excuse, so they referred it to an attorney they have in NY. The attorney filed suit and and won, giving them the authority to withdraw the past due amount, plus interest and attorney's fees from their account. So then, their attorney calls my attorney to play "let's make a deal", I couldn't believe that one. The attorney checked with me and I told them "no f'ing way". So after several months (8 or so if I remember right), D&B deducted their take and I received my check for only a little less than what I originally charged the client.

Warren

[Icarus112277]

Good stuff here- but how about this for an idea:

If and when any of us here are doing business with a new, out of state (or in state for that matter) client maybe we could post here and get feedback BEFORE getting stiffed...I know it may not always be practical, but in the cases that it is this method could help us all out.

For my part, if anyone needs info on NYC area companies let me know. I know most of 'em, and if I don't I certainly know someone who does.

[freedom]

I've posted this before, I now ask for references from new clients. I ask for 3 shooters names, numbers and e-mail. If the client is out of state, I insist that the shooters are not from that state.

[Baltimore Shooter]

Tom,
How is your situation progressing? have you decided what you plan to do with this client?

Warren

[timkeating]

you are not going to get paid, so at least have some fun with them.
Call at all hours
Find out their cell phone numbers...call at all hours
Constantly send your bill to their fax numbers..
auto faxes are great.
Find their home numbers,,, call call call
deliver pizzas to their office.

[Miami Nice]

Why not post their name so everyone else will know not to do business with them?

[A Step Above Productions]

I just went through this and before I tell you the end result… I want to tell you the back-story.

I did a job back in January for a guy I knew, he was a former anchor I had worked with about ten years earlier. He now has his own production company and hired me for a full day. Every thing went great and we worked well together. At the end of the day as we both were headed on our way I gave him my invoice. He said he would have a check to me in a few days. I thought this was great… it normally takes me 30+ days to receive payment.

Three weeks go by and nothing, I don’t get worried even though he is late as far as what he told me, but as far as he actual due date he is not late. Well the actual due date comes and goes and nothing… so I call him… nothing… email… nothing. A week later he calls me and tells me he has a check. But he wants to give it to me Saturday at a new shoot. I happily agree.

We meet at the shoot on a Saturday morning at a Costco, I ask him if we have permission to shoot and he tells me he spoke with his client and they assured him it would be okay. We were shooting a health screening for seniors. A half day shoot.

Well guess what… we had no permission to shoot, so while we were waiting for permission I was asked if I would help set up the screening. Being a professional I help… until I am asked to take the waist measurements of the seniors. This is also the point were we found out we could not shoot at Costco.

This was to be a half-day shoot, and normally I would charge that if cancelled the day of. But since I knew this guy I offered to just charge him a small cancellation fee of $200.00. He was very happy and sang my praises to his client.

Again he tells me he will pay me by this end of the week… I say great and tell him I ill email him the invoice later that day.

A month goes by nothing… two month go by nothing. I call, nothing… I email, nothing… I send him letters, nothing.

Once it hit 90 days past due, and not hearing a word from him, I send him an email stating this is his last chance to pay before I get my lawyer involved. He obviously did not take me serious, because I got nothing.

I had my lawyer send him a demand letter and within two weeks a check for $200.00 was in my mail box… just a check, not a letter, not an apology… nothing.

Bottom line if you can’t get results, ask a lawyer to fire off a letter on your behalf. It is nothing for the lawyer all it is, is a form letter they fill out to fit your needs.

[Sean-1966]

I have a client that I've sent collection agencys after, my lawyer, the whole shooting match. I'll be suing when I get the time. This guy was in a bind and I stepped up to help him out. I think we need a site where we can post there names and help each other out.

[Matt Box]

Check out www.bigbookofbastards.com

[tubecamera-or-bust]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse since I have often posted this reply before but... here goes...

Get yourself set up to take credit cards. It will cost you very little to do so and if you go through a place like BJ's (the warehouse store) you can hook up with Chase Merchant Services and pay no monthly fee. You can accept MC, Visa and even Amex.

You can accept their card # over the phone or in person. It works either way. Over the phone will cost you a few more percent but it's worth it. After all, 97 % of $1500 is better than 100 % of nothing, right? Once you process the transaction you have their money. They cannot take it back.

And for all of you who say asking for payment up front is a sign of poor business... that's B.S. It's just the opposite. A good business person nails down payment BEFORE he/she does the work, not after the job is done. That's just being a dope.

I've recently done two jobs for overseas clients. Both sent producers to the states for the shoot. I got credit card #'s from both before I booked the job.

Two weeks ago I did $8000 worth of work for a new out of state client. I asked for $4000 up front a week before the shoot to hold the dates and $4000 on the final day of shooting. I got it.

If that's being a bad business person, well, I'm crying all the way to the bank.

Look, you cannot even book a hotel room or a car without a credit card. Why should anyone expect to book a professional video crew without one?

Wise up. Get paid upfront or tell them to take a hike. Sorry for being harsh. Nothing personal.

[freedom]

tube
can you give more details about this bj? no such thing as a bad bj...

[Todio]

Here's a thread with some helpful and funny stories on this subject.

http://www.b-roll.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13690

[tubecamera-or-bust]

Freedom:

BJ's is a wholesale membership club. Like Sam's club. Major cities have one or the other. Chase does not charge a monthly fee to have a merchant account with them. Most other merchant services do.

Bank service charges, discount fees, etc. are all business deductions so either way will work. I like Chase. Never had a problem and easy to deal with.

http://www.bjs.com

[grassland]

The credit card thing is a good idea. I had a client that simply wasn't paying. After several promises and missed payment dates I set up a credit card account and told the producer " Pay with your card or we go to court". I got the card number and (with a little effort) the money. Now the credit card company can wait for payment.

The small cost involved is worth it to avoid collection problems.

[Chestfever]

Credit cards and pre-payment to book long shoots are the way we go. We also require 100% payment at the end of the shoot for first-time clients. We've lost a few jobs with this policy but I've decided those are clients we'll live without.

Before small claims court or paying for a lawyer, here's a story we've used successfully several times. Tell the client that your bookkeeping is done by an outside company (true in our case). Tell them as part of the deal all invoices over 90 days past-due are given to them for collection (not true).

I then tell the client that I don't want this to happen because I give up a large chunk of the total invoice. And I mention that this other company gets ugly....expect lots of calls, faxes, etc...

We've used this story 5 times and collected 4. Bottom line...if it doesn't work we sue in small claims, very easy to do, collection of the judgement is more difficult, but not impossible.

But, as mentioned previously, credit cards or payment on location is the way to go.

[Matt Box]

Any of you guys know of any other credit card payment/merchant service companies besides BJ's that don't charge a monthly fee? I've checked out the web a bit but most seem to charge a monthly fee. I may be being cheap but its just something that I hope to not have to use that often.

[quicklad]

You could always use Paypal - they take a percentage - but no monthly fee.

[Flaca Productions]

i haven't used em, but chase merchant services was mentioned above:

http://www.chasepaymentech.com/solretsol.do

or

http://www.chase.com/cm/cs?pagename=Chase/Href&urlname=crb/sbfs/page/sb_1.jsp