The Apple/Sony XDcam HD seminar

[Nino]

Yesterday I attended in Miami the first of a nationwide series of combined Apple/Sony seminars on the integration and workflow of FCP Studio and XDCAM HD.

http://seminars.apple.com/go/sonytour/indextrk.html?s=10&cid=WWW-D060526FCSSONY-X7Q00

The 3 hours (actually 2 hours) seminar touches the basic of the system. If you don’t know anything about the XD HD or FCP in general (probably you’ve been in a cave for the last two years) then it would be worth attending, otherwise it definitely wasn’t worth my drive from Tampa to Miami. These are scaled down version of the ongoing seminars that Apple had at NAB this year. The Apple presenter wasn’t well prepared and apparently was his first day demonstrating the integration system. No Sony rep took questions from the audience, and that really bothered me. The entire Q&A went thru the Apple presenter if the questions were about the camera it was referred to the Sony reps standing on the side and their answer were mostly yes and no. The program wasn’t that good but in all fairness these were the first of the series and I’m sure they were learning too.

What I got out of my semi-wasted day was that, as I suspected after NAB, Sony without any doubt is pushing the ½” XDcam HD as the substitution for the Betacam as the general acquisition tool. The 2/3” XD HD most likely will not be the ideal camera for the day in day out acquisition but more toward a substitution for the 900. Again this is all speculation. What I know and been told is that most network who have been purchasing the XD system are planning to move to the XD HD with the generous help of Sony.

Brian you didn’t miss anything and still own me a beer.

[Flaca Productions]

hey nino,
sorry i dragged you into that and wasted your time...dang.

i guess i owe you TWO beers......

[Nino]

I'm sorry Brian, I didn't mean it that way. Actually I'm glad I went, I took my 16 yo son with me, he is the family computer wizard and he is very interested in learning FCP and the business, he is actually a very good PA and grip. Now if I'm lucky and he gets smarter he'll follow on the footsteps of my other 2 kids and get a real job instead of production. He really enjoyed the seminar. But I'm okay with the two beers.

[PHX Shooter]

There's a pretty thorough review of this on HD for Indies (http://www.hdforindies.com). Guess right now you can only deal with the 25Mbit now. I wonder hw long until the 35Mbit is ready as that seems to be the solution most are interested in.

[Flaca Productions]

no apologies needed, nino!! i took it in the light-hearted way that you meant it! (I do know that it was a pretty good haul for you, though!)

I'm glad your son enjoyed it.

[EFP]

Sony without any doubt is pushing the ½” XDcam HD as the substitution for the Betacam as the general acquisition tool. The 2/3” XD HD most likely will not be the ideal camera for the day in day out acquisition but more toward a substitution for the 900.

Funny, because that’s not the info I’m getting from a Sony Technical Product Manager.

When Clive (Sony Technical Product Manager) was asked why the new HD-XDCams aren’t compatible with the current SD-IMX rigs the answer as of June 14th 2006


The issue is really that the current XDCAM SD range may be considered true broadcast, whilst the new XDCAM HD range is aimed at the professional market. Two completely different market segments.

Hence the record/playback capability of DVCAM and not IMX - for backward compatibility of professional products. Ivan hit it on the head when he mentioned that this is the equivalent of the DSR range.

The XDCAM HD product range that you want (call it broadcast if you like) has simply not been released yet.

We all know that the 2/3" 4:2:2 XD HD camcorder is on its way. This will of course need compatible decks, and I am pretty sure that this range will live up to all our expectations including backwards compatibility in all the right areas.

Timescale is the only question (which I can't answer - even if I knew!).


Clive went on to state:


We all know that the 2/3" 4:2:2 XD HD camcorder is on its way. This will of course need compatible decks… . Confirmed - any future (2/3") dual layer machines will of course support existing 23GB single layer discs


Nino may be thinking that I got this info from another trade mag and it’s all PR hype with no reality..

Fact is I got this info straight from a Sony Technical Product Manager – just two weeks ago…He confirms that the current HD-XD is a replacement for the DSR line and the 2/3i HD XD 4:2:2 is coming for main stream (day in day out HD) broadcast and will be compatible with SD-IMX including up-converting the IMX disks… .Feel free to publicly talk to him at http://xdcam.com.au/

PS
If anyone accuses me of turning this into another format war – I’ll personally come down and shove a prototype XDCam dual-layer disk down his/her throat.:)

[Nino]

Ivan, you are probably right, you are probably one of their best clients and right be up there with the Sony top dogs. I’m sure that Miami is such an insignificant market when compared to Vancouver that at yesterday’s Apple seminar Sony probably sent a pair of rookies in a conspiracy with Apple to disseminate misleading and confusing information to the equally insignificant Miami’s video and television community.

I would love to get into another format discussion with you, I’m sure that if we think really hard we should be able to find something that wasn’t already said before, but I have a more important commitment, I promised my cat that I would brush her tonight and I’m a man of my word.

[Baltimore Shooter]

Nino, maybe you just got a bad Sony rep who didn't know his bunghole from a hole in the ground.

When I went to the Gov't Video Expo in DC the Sony rep seemed to know the (SD) XDCam inside and out. He showed me a bunch of features I wasn't even aware of.

Maybe your rep spent too much time in South Beach the night before ;)

Warren

[Canonman]

There's a pretty thorough review of this on HD for Indies (http://www.hdforindies.com). Guess right now you can only deal with the 25Mbit now. I wonder hw long until the 35Mbit is ready as that seems to be the solution most are interested in.

I attended the Dallas session. Pretty much a waste of my day since I already own the camera and software. The thing that REALLY has me po'd is that they claimed the software was going to be available yesterday. It was the same thing they demo'd at NAB and told us 'end of June'. Well, it's nowhere to be found and my Sony contact called me today to say that they 'mis-spoke' at the Dallas/Miami events and they are 'shooting for a mid-July release date'....yeah, yeah promises, promises.

The best thing about yesterday was how damn good the 4K projector looked in the theater being fed by the 15" Macbook Pro.

cm

[SandRat]

Fact is I got this info straight from a Sony Technical Product Manager – just two weeks ago…He confirms that the current HD-XD is a replacement for the DSR line and the 2/3i HD XD 4:2:2 is coming for main stream (day in day out HD) broadcast and will be compatible with SD-IMX including up-converting the IMX disks… .Feel free to publicly talk to him at http://xdcam.com.au/



How are you so sure your Sony rep was being honest with YOU? When it comes down to it, he is a salesman.

A Sony Tech told me a different story than what you were told.

[EFP]

No need to get into my rep versus your rep -waste of time.
Best thing to do is wait and see what the major broadcast facilities will do.

If you don't feel like trusting a Sony Technical Product Manager or if you don’t feel like reading Sony's own literature to see where Sony is taking XDCam (to see what format is aimed at who) then talk to technical supervisors at the broadcast facilities.

Facilities that are using IMX XD & Beta SP are aware of what's going on. When you order millions of dollars worth of gear Sony will let you know what their plans of a format are. The facilities ordering hundreds of cameras & decks have some say. They know what they want, how they want it to fit in with their current infrastructure.
All the XD IMX material is useless with the current HD-XD infrastructure, yet as we speak the various broadcast facilities around the world are rolling a few thousand IMX XDCams. I’m sure when they’re ready to go HD they will want the decks to be capable of taking an IMX disk and feeding it into a HD-XD system. They may even want their cameras to be switchable between their current house format and their new HD format.

There are numerous broadcast facilities around the world (including in the USA) that have heavily invested in the IMX SD XDCAMs. Not just XD format but most signals pass around the 4:2:2 IMX signal for SD. (even the freelance Beta SP SX signals at CBS net) Whole infrastructures are based around it. Many broadcast facilities in Europe, down under and even in North America.

I’m sure a few broadcasters will invest in the current HD XD (as the CBS locals and PBS news has done) Didn’t most of the US locals (net owned stations) previously invest in Panasonic gear equal to the DSR series Sony gear? Yet the national stuff is based on BVW, (or higher) series (IMX)

Before we start calling each other's reputations down - let's wait and see what happens, shall we? I can’t predict the future yet we all have a crystal ball we can look into and judge from past facility decisions.

Oh Nino I know I said there is no need for this my rep your rep stuff so I promise to quit.
But my friend, by your own admission.

"""No Sony rep took questions from the audience… if the questions were about the camera it was referred to the Sony reps standing on the side and their answer were mostly yes and no. The program wasn't that good but in all fairness these were the first of the series and I'm sure they were learning too."""

The tech guy from Sony I mentioned knows his stuff = TRUST ME HE WILL TAKE A QUESTION FROM YOU, he will try to give you an honest answer. One more point for my friend Nino, I may not own all the fancy gear you own but I did influence some gear decision making at a facility. I would put the estimate at around $300k and NO Vancouver rep was involved…. Don’t let “your cat” snap at you my friend. I apologise for my lousy use of grammar today.

[Nino]

Okay Ivan, once more you have a gift for understanding things in the way that you want to understand, let’s take this logically. The reps in Miami did not answer or gave very few answers to the Q&A, so how do you think we got the message that the XD HD camera is directed toward the freelancer (us) for general acquisition? Could it be may be that the entire presentation was geared to convince us freelancer that this indeed is the next acquisition camera? It appears that you are the expert in market strategies therefore who do you think that the ½” XD HD camera is directed to? What segment of production do you see the camera being slotted in? I can assure you that not a single time was the Sony presentation on the big screen at this seminar directed to wedding photographer, we can pretty much rule out event videographers as a Sony target marketing for the XD HD ½ camera. No Ivan, the core of the official Sony presentation was a testimonial and sample work of one of us talking to the rest of us, all independent freelancers or small production companies, and there were about 150 of us at the Miami Seminar. Now, I can assure you Ivan that Sony and Apple did not invite all of us for a social gathering, the sole purposes of these seminars is to sell Sony XDCAM XD and Final Cut Pro, lots of them. Now, if Sony is successful in achieving its objective and that’s all of us potential buyers actually buying the ½ XD HD, who will buy the 2/3” XD HD when and if it will be introduced? Do you seriously think that they will again gather of all us together next year to tell us that the 2/3” camera is the new acquisition tool and to disregard the $40K investment that we just made only a year before? So in your own way Ivan, do you seriously see this happening? Would Sony actually self-eliminate a substantial number of potential buyer of their 2/3” camera because their promotion of the 1/2” camera went so well? I’m positive that they don’t expect us to buy both cameras. Or could it possibly be that the 2/3” XD HD be intended toward higher budget productions and not for general acquisition? Was your Sony rep in Vancouver actually contradicting the national presentation that his own company put together for us?
And BTW Ivan, a very brief part of the presentation was that the signal out of the XD HD can actually be converted to 4.2.2 when capturing on FCP thru one of the cards already available now or in the near future from companies like AJA or Blackmagic. I know very little about it right now but by the time to make a decision I’ll get fully educated. And I’m sure we’ll get a full page from you on this subject.

[Graybeard]

Sorry to hear that the Miami seminar didn't live up to it's billing. I was scheduled to go, but money talks, and we had to work.

It is good to know that Apple is involved now, because Windows bites.

We've had the SDXDCam for almost a year now, and the main question in my mind is, can I amortize this thing quickly enough to afford to buy a 2/3" HDXDCam when it finally comes out.

As you probably know, Sony has offered to take the SDXDCams they sold this spring in trade for the 2/3" HD units when available. But, they're not offering that deal to "early adopters" like us. We're screwed. Thanks a lot, Just a few camera people in the U.S. drank the Kool-Aid, and bought these units early, and now Sony won't back us up. But, you can bet that all the network SD cameras will get traded, no problem. Why am I not surprised at how they do business?

I'm wondering if there will be any market at all for the used SD- NTSC versions when Sony releases the new HD camera. What do you think?
Is this thing going to be a boat anchor, or what?

[SimonW]

This is a tough one. As Ivan stated Clive Canon of Sony NZ was very clear in what he said, and he is usually extremely on the ball and doesn't give sales pitches.

XD HD can actually be converted to 4.2.2 when capturing on FCP

Yes, although note the word 'converted'. The F350 upconverts the 420 signal to 422. It doesn't output true 422 colour resolution from the camera head like the SDI on the SD cameras.

Or could it possibly be that the 2/3” XD HD be intended toward higher budget productions and not for general acquisition?

Not a chance of it. I have no doubt that the 2/3" XDCAM HD will be very high quality and will probably be used instead of HDCAM for many. However, HDCAM, and HDCAM SR are firmly at Sony's high end of production and they intend it to stay that way. I say that with the caviat that when Sony say that any 2/3" XDCAM HD is not meant to compete with HDCAM, they could well mean HDCAM SR. If that is the case then a 2/3" XDCAM HD could well be a successor to cameras like the HDW730/750 with a similar price point.

[SimonW]

Is this thing going to be a boat anchor, or what?

Depends what the timescale is on the 2/3" version, and also whether the market is making much demand for HD at that time. If you current SD XD is making money and continues to do so there is no need to worry.

Besides, as I mentioned abover, it could well be that they are in totally different price leagues.

[Matt Box]

"If anyone accuses me of turning this into another format war – I’ll personally come down and shove a prototype XDCam dual-layer disk down his/her throat."

Ha ha, no my friend I will not accuse you of turning this into a format war. It's and XD cam thread and BTW I found your comments added much to the topic.

But if I see a bunch of XD cam thoughts thrown into a thread that is on a totally different topic then the accusations will fly!!!!

:) :)

[SandRat]

I wasn't calling out anyone here, just mentioning that I was told the 1.5 inch XDHD was put out because the price-point is more evenly matched with what the freelance market (beta rates), independent filmakers and news departments would pay. The 2/3 is more for the F-900 market.

[dinosaur]

I think you should have gone to the show if only to chat in the back of the room with the Sony reps while the FCP presentation was taking place. Some of their answers were very enlightening.

But, they're not offering that deal to "early adopters" like us. We're screwed. Thanks a lot, Just a few camera people in the U.S. drank the Kool-Aid, and bought these units early, and now Sony won't back us up.

This is so typical of Sony. They did the same thing to people who bought $90K HDW700 cameras late in model run and then Sony just sprang the F900 on the market without any hint offering any trade up. Just ask Champe. Now he owns both and the HDW 700 sits idle most of the time because of its lack of 24p.


But, you can bet that all the network SD cameras will get traded, no problem. Why am I not surprised at how they do business?
When I asked the Sony Account Manger about this directly. I got a "wink, wink" followed by - watch what happens to the SD cameras at CBS News when the bulk of the CBS O&Os takes delivery of the F350s next year and he wasn't refering to any future 2/3" model either. I think the freelancers who jumped in early on the SD will probably be out of luck. Besides the pro rated deal Sony is offering for any possble future trade up is not a fantastic deal. Especially if you're currently leasing.


I'm wondering if there will be any market at all for the used SD- NTSC versions when Sony releases the new HD camera. What do you think? Is this thing going to be a boat anchor, or what?
In the seminar's video demo of the F350 XDCam was repeatedly and favorably compared to the F900 (by someone who owns a F900). Obviously the F900 is a far more dynamic camera, but the F350 made some astonishing pictures.

Can you really afford now to spend $60K+ when working the diminishing pie of shooting network news? We were outright told that a 2/3" XDHD model will clearly be aimed at the same market as current F900 owners.

[Canonman]

a very brief part of the presentation was that the signal out of the XD HD can actually be converted to 4.2.2 when capturing on FCP thru one of the cards already available now or in the near future from companies like AJA or Blackmagic. I know very little about it right now but by the time to make a decision I’ll get fully educated. And I’m sure we’ll get a full page from you on this subject.

Nino,

You can do that right now with an HD-SDI card. We also found out that you can hook up fw at the same time and use it for deck control during ingest via HDSDI.

Yes, the camera is a 4:2:0 head and upconverts to 4:2:2 on HDSDI output only. It also does a respectable downconvert to DVCAM out the fw port in real-time or in playback.

For everyone else,

This link is to a PDF with lots of FAQ's answered that are being thrown around in this thread. It's worth a read.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/docs/XDCAM_FAQs.pdf


cm

[Nino]

After I left the Miami Apple/Sony seminar I had more questions that answer, not much about the technical operation of the camera but how Sony has been conducting business lately. I couldn’t stop thinking why is Sony suddenly promoting the XDCAM HD so aggressively to freelancers; they never did that before with any of their products. You can’t pick up any trade magazine without seeing a full or even a double page advertising on the inside of the front cover, come to think of this is how I first learned about the XD HD camera. I have tons of promotional material that I received in the mail and picked up at NAB.
Let’s not assume even for a single second that even those Harvard MBAs with seven figures salaries in charge of Sony marketing really know what they are doing. Let’s not forget that in the last 15 years in the broadcasting industry Sony products practically sold themselves, they had no competition and no need to do much marketing strategies, but lately Panasonic, that in the past has been a total disaster in this industry, has become a true player in broadcasting. The more that I try to find a reason for Sony sudden direct interest to us, the freelancer, the more I’m convinced that Sony committed a major blunder in the marketing of the XD HD (SD) camera; this is why in the field they are just non-existent. Sony has learned from this and will not make the same mistake twice. In their marketing plans for the XD (SD) they underestimated the importance of freelancers in making their own decision. Sony figured that if they start selling packages to the institutions that hire us, we will automatically go out and buy the camera in order to secure ourselves their business, and so they did. Sony gave sweet deals to the broadcasters to install the XD systems and followed each deal with a flurry of press releases on every possible publication and web site intended only to impress us, as we’ve reading from our friend Ivan for the last two years. Well, the XD worked well for broadcasters, it improved their work flow and the XD was a success with shows that require a large number of cameras such as reality shows. I’m sure that given time the XD would have achieved the same success as the Betacam did and Sony banked on the successes of the past, but today’s technology is moving too rapidly and word of mouth is just too slow. Let’s not under estimate the buying power of freelancers, we’ve seen press release from Sony that some affiliates just bought maybe 10 XD cameras, well’ that’s not very much, here in Tampa alone I’m sure that there are at least 3 dozens of Betacam 600s, these are all potential replacements for any dominating new formats, multiply this nationwide and we’ll see some very impressive numbers. This is in reality a catch 22 game. Freelancers need the business from broadcasters but broadcasters need the freelancers in order to stay in business, if they start dictating what camera we must use in order to get their business but we don’t buy that camera, they are out of business. This is why they’ll prefer if you have their desired equipment, but if you don’t they’ll still hire you, so why buy new gears, not exactly what Sony had in mind. Now that HD is here to stay Sony will not make the same mistake again, word of mouth will not work, they must promote to freelancer just as aggressively as they do to broadcasters, and this is exactly what’s happening now.

The most troubling question however is why they made the announcement about the 2/3” HD almost two year before its intended release and why are they so aggressively promoting something (the ½” camera) that will definitely, or at least in the eyes of many, compete directly with the XD HD 2/3” camera. Or, why would they make a camera that will also compete with their own 900. From a business standpoint it just doesn’t make any sense, but I don’t think that’s what Sony has in mind.

Let’s look at market placement of the different cameras available today.

Level one, small camcorders, both Sony and Panasonic have HD, that race is set.

Level two, a replacement for the Betacam. Workflow is becoming very important. Sony was banking on the XD and Panasonic on their P2 camera but the race now must include HD. Sony has the ½” XD HD, great for work flow. Panasonic has announced their new HD 900, definitely a much better camera on specs but has no work flow. The advantage is that they are both moderately priced cameras. Not good for established freelancers as the relatively low priced cameras will bring a whole new wave of freelancers in the field. Good for broadcasters that will now be able to initiate price wars among us. Be sure that Sony is using the possible freelance cost saving as a strategy to convince broadcasters to adopt the XD HD as a main format.

Lever three. Panasonic has their best and most successful camera, the Varicam. Sony has none. We are seeing an increasing number multiple camera EFP shoot with the Varicams. Most of the freelancers that I know who have invested in a second format (beside the little cameras) have invested in a Varicam. Even thou Varicam is not designed for a good workflow, this camera right now has no competition, so what’s Sony to do? Why not introduce a 2/3” HD camera with the workflow of the XD system to directly take on the Varicam. And how do you maximize future sales? You announce the camera 2 years before it is released, you flood the market with all kinds of rumors with the sole objective to cause doubts to those who have intentions of buying a Varicam and hope that they will wait for the new Sony before making a decision.

Level four. The Sony 900 and higher. As the camera never really made it as an ENG camera as the Varicam has, they will remain at their current level for high end EFP productions. No direct competition right now from Panasonic, but considering that Panasonic has been keeping announcement of new models pretty close to their releases I would not be surprised to see a new line of high end cameras from Panasonic to spoil the release of the Sony 2/3” XD HD.

Does any of this make any sense?

Well, that’s the way I see it on a Saturday night with nothing worthwhile on TV to take my time so I can write this crap.

[EFP]

Nino,
We all speculate but we can also look at facts that already happened and are happening.
So here is a little bit of speculation with a bit of fact.

A)))
“””””Why is Sony suddenly promoting the XDCAM HD so aggressively to freelancers???”””””

Simply put it’s a freelancer camera.
This is a professional XD-LINE.
Pros make video. Freelancers are pros.
But as you pointed out = there are different levels of video productions.

TELEVISION PRODUCTIONS / LEVELS
(my view)

1a) Network Movies, Sit-Com, Drama, A-Rate TV spots
(Cinematographer with film / Beta SR etc.)
1b) TV Specials, NG Flag Shows, etc
(Cinematographer with film / Beta SR HDCAM Vari etc.)

2) Top EVENTS / SPORTS / AE = A-Roll EFP
(HDCam/ Varicam / DigiBeta little Beta etc)

3) NETWORK C/A, REALITY or Equal Cable & Corp =A-Roll EFP
“””CURENTLY”””
(Mostly BETA & IMX + little Varicam little HDCam)

If #3-level goes full HD, when, & to what format. That’s part of our disagreement.
How much will remain in SD and WHY? How long for & why?
Do the nets want to lower the SD stuff from Beta SP, SX and now a whole lot of IMX to ½ CCD DVCam?
They knew about the current HDXD line coming = back when they ordered the SD-XD.
Why did they buy the SD stuff this late in the game?
Do the facilities have an estimate, a plan?
They are aware that a 2/3i 4:2;2 HDXD will be out for them.
Those are only a few issues concerning the facilities.

Issues for the freelancer:
Will you be able to use the same format for A-ROLL above in my #2-level list?
Will you be able to use the same camera for all the SD acquisition (#3 list) =may be required for some time to come. There are level (#3 list) requirements for many broadcast, cable & corporate productions; the nets are only one sector.

Now comes a level below.
4-LEVEL
This is where I think the current HDXD fits in.
Lower-end broadcast + mostly corporate and professional productions.
(DSR LINE or equal HD SD )
Why did Sony make this line of XDCam?
Why is Sony trying to sell to freelancers?
Are you for real my friend?
As I said many times = this line of HDXD will be in demand. But not in the level of productions that require a more robust format with bigger chips as in Net-Level A-Roll, main-stream cable and high-end corporate.

The current XDHD is a good facility camera. Not just freelance.
The O&Os among others are buying into this XD-LINE.
Many, many pro facilities (below network level, even a few mainstream cable and corporate) will find this line appealing.

“””FOUR LEVELS”””
That’s one of your mistakes Nino. There are at least “FIVE” levels Level-1 is all HD, Level-2 is mostly all HD and the last three levels still have HD and SD levels split up. Clearly the current HD-XD line is not in the same level as A-ROLL EFP for network main stream (#3). BTW, the fifth-level is the “prosumer handycams”

B)))
”””””The more that I try to find a reason for Sony sudden direct interest to us, the freelancer, the more I’m convinced that Sony committed a major blunder in the marketing of the XD HD (SD) camera; …”””””

The SD-XDCam line (in your mind blundered & non-existent) had sold more units then any other format (including Beta SP) in the same time period. Major facilities (including in the USA) have now almost totally converted their whole (SD sector) facilities. Many facilities, including CBS have done this after they knew and tested the current HD-XD line. Sony had very good reason to put both IMX-50 and DVCam in the 530. They had very good reason to make a DVCam only unit. They are both work-whores. Sony also had very good reason to release the current HD-XD line.

And Nino – this will blow you away my friend.
SONY HAS A VERY GOOD REASON TO RELEASE THE NEXT XDCAM LINE!!!!
The next line may be a bit under HDCam quality but way above in workflow.
That’s the one the nets will want for main stream quick turn around EFP HD A-ROLL.
FLASH NEWS NINO – Eventually a quad layer line is coming out that will be under Beta SR quality but way above HDCam with XD- workflow included.

C)))
“””””If they [broadcasters] start dictating what camera we must use in order to get their business but we don’t buy that camera, they are out of business. This is why they’ll prefer if you have their desired equipment, but if you don’t they’ll still hire you, so why buy new gears, …”””””

Well looks like NBC is buying people out. Tough Sh!t . NBC outa business huh?
I, as a fellow brother of freelance video don’t mean to hurt anyone with that – just cold reality.
I don’t know about you but in my reality we really, really, really need to supply exactly what they ask for. Even little details like 2/3 inch CCDs.

Nino please take these comments as the friends we once were, and hopefully still are. But your biggest mistake is your lack of taking into consideration that Sony and the large facilities are in collaboration. The big long-term plan if you like. Sony bends over for them.

Not everything will be HD in one single poof (it’s already been in transition for almost ten years.) There are still issues with the EFP and ENG stuff and in many cases it’s better to go in good clean SD. Many technical reasons that would take pages of reading. There are non-technical issues as well. Don’t under estimate Sony, CBS and other facilities that helped push SD-XDCam to be the best selling format to date. CBS and the others know about all the XDCam formats that are still to be released. They know what they have done. They had access to a current HD-XD prototype at least three years ago. (Sony rigged the ½ POV HD HEAD, mickey-moused to a computer with prototype MPEG-2 L-GOP VBR at various 4:2:0 rates.) You can be sure that for a while now Sony had a 2/3 CCD-head rigged to a NLE simulating different bit-rates in 4:2:2 for CBS. You can be sure that Sony is telling them what is still problematic. You can be sure that guys like Frank also talk to uplink specialists and other techs (including avid) to see what is problematic at this date.

Nino I can’t stress this enough. The facilities knew (before they bought the SD XDs) what the next XD format will be like.
Sony are helping with the technology but there are non Sony technology issues as well. NLE Hard Drives, Bandwidth, Access, Speed, Delay etc.

There’s the issue of trying to figure out how many people will watch the CBS NIGHTLY NEWS on a 32inch SD and how many people will watch the CBS NIGHTLY NEWS on a 42 inch HD. They are trying to figure out a time scale for the technology, speed, access, money involved etc. If 70 percent of the folks (in the next four years) will watch the news on SD, do you really want to lower their “current” quality while bringing in additional headaches of HD?

Nino, this long post barely touches all the issues involved of why there are so many formats out and more importantly why some people at the networks believe that putting in a fairly new high quality SD format (so late in the game) may be better suited for certain applications.

My last point:
“You will be forced to feed the beast with the gear they call for, sorry.”:p

[Hiding Under Here]

Important people in the broadcast decision making realm are still not convinced that 1/2" CCDs are the way to go. Most have their eyes on the 2/3" version which, as everybody knows, doesn't even exist. Bear in mind that the expense of changing lenses alone is extremely costly. And most people own 2/3" lenses, many of which can make a 1 to 1 change to a 2/3" camera without any conversion that restricts their imaging abilities.

The 2/3" HD XDCam may be more in league with the F900 than people imagined. However, the 1/2" nature of the current HD XDCam still worries folks -- even if that concern is borne from ignorance. In conversations I have -- and most people haven't touched or seen the 1/2" camera -- everybody assumes that the 2/3" HD XDCam is what we are all waiting for.

I have to be vague here. But it's rooted in fact. There have been freelancers I know who have had cameras stolen or that have broken down who have gone to the network decision makers (some of whom are quoted at this board) and asked outright "Should I forget Beta SP and just buy the XDCam?" -- and in each instance I know of they were told at different networks by different people to "wait". And they replaced their Betacams with used ones, not XDCams. I cannot go any further than that in telling this story. But it underscores that the networks are not promoting the current state of XDCams as they wave of the long term future -- at least to freelancers whom they know need an extended time frame to pay back their investment. I believe if the time frame between the 1/2" introduction (last April) and the 2/3" introduction is short enough and the industry is not fully geared up with the 1/2" cameras, then 2/3" HD XDCam (if it isn't riddled with bugs and flaws) will insert itself as THE replacement for Beta SP/DigiBeta/SDX900 and some Varicam work.

But dino made the single most important statement in this discussion. Look at the economics of it all. The networks are wilting. It's network magazine programs that created and drove the entire freelance industry. Even if you never worked in that milieu, you are here because it was the big bang, the demand that created the supply. Now, as it abates, the question remains -- who will have a strong enough business to absorb the cost of buying yet another camera to satisfy an increasingly fragmented clientele?

Even if the networks went with the HD XDCam TOMORROW, not many freelancers would have the stomach -- not to mention the financial resources -- to harness up that horse. Of course some would simply have to. I am among that group. But is that business model going to increase the amount of work I do or what I make? The networks are declining and their will to pay adequately for equipment is sagging. If freelancers revamp with HD XDCams and HD lenses and HD monitors -- will the networks be willing to compensate comensurate with the cost? And, as business becomes more competitive now that "cable production rates" have driven down the a la carte nature of charging for gear in favor of a ten hour, one fee for the whole enchilada mentality, who will be able to buy this new equipment and pay for it in a reasonable amount of time?

The other question, of course, is what happens if you can't or don't retool? Keep in mind also that freelancers are aging. It is a workforce comprised significantly by baby boomers. The unstated question among most of us is -- can I see myself doing this when I am sixty years old?

So the HD XDCam better get here soon. I can see whay the 1/2" HD XDCam is being pushed as a replacement for Betacams -- because it's here now and it looks great. Why wait? But will we bite? That's another question. I will only jump in if I see evrybody else doing it. I will not be an early adopter because I can't risk the investment. MY money's on the 2/3" camera. Only a strong argument for something else would change my mind.

Final question -- If and when the HD XDCam technology is ready and if and when the networks want to produce documentary-style news program with it, will there be any programming at the network level to support this kind of investment by freelancers on any large scale? The answer to that, I believe, is up for grabs.

[Douglas]

I wouldn't suggest buying any new gear, especially a camera, until you have a pressing need for it. I'd say you are smart to wait and see what happens with the 2/3" XDHD.

However, after shooting with the F350 for almost three months now, I wouldn't be willing to spend very much extra $$ for a 2/3". Unless the price of the 2/3" is surprisingly affordable, 90% of current Betacam owners are going to be perfectly happy with the 1/2" version and will find it hard to justify the extra expense --- unless of course, clients are demanding the 2/3" model when it is available.

I'd be willing to pay maybe $5000 extra for a 2/3" model to get the narrow DOF it'd provide and hoepfully a better viewfinder. Anymore than $5000, and I think I'd pass. Besides the DOF issue, I really can't imagine what could be that much better. I mean, how good of a picture do you need?

My prediction is that many people who are taking a wait-and-see attitude will eventually settle on the 1/2" model when they see the sticker price of the 2/3". I'm not saying there's anything wrong with putting off the purchase as long as possbile, I'm just predicting that the camera many freelancers eventually buy is already here.

Doug

[Nino]

Ivan are you for real, What exactly does this mean?

"The SD-XDCam line (in your mind blundered & non-existent) had sold more units then any other format (including Beta SP) in the same time period"

“Same time period?” Is this how you base your information? If you have something better please give it to us. Sony discontinued sale of the Betacam long before the XD was introduced, I should certainly hope that XDCAM had better sales.

[Matt Box]

I always thought he meant the same time period but during each systems introduction. So I think he may be comparing the sales of XDcam now to the sales of Beta sp when it was introduced years ago. Anyway I'm sure he will tell us in his own special way. ;)

[Hiding Under Here]

Keeo in mind that when Beta SP was selling at its height, the market was much narrower than it was today. There were far fewer groups representing themselves as full-fledged production companies. The advent of cheaper editing sytems has allowed many many people to enter the production business. In the late 1980s when Beta SP started to take off (and it didn't really fly until the early 1990s), editing systems cost a fortune. So the industry was very much a segmented cottage business. In fact, many many companies went bust at the end of the 80s because they invested in editing sytems that were outdated and priced as though they were made of gold.

I remember seeing one of the first 3 CCD one-piece cameras. It was an NEC model around 1986. The gain capability of the camera blew me away. A friend bought an Ikegami HLV77 (his company still has it, my friend has died) in '89 or '90. He was one of the early adopters in these parts. I couldn't believe what an incredible image it made.

So, if comparable time periods is the beginings of Beta SP versus the beginings of XDCam, we're in the early stages. It's three years from now. Let's see how many XDCams are selling then. My guess is a lot. But as much as Beta SP? Tough to say.

Ihaven't even seen the 1/2" HD XDCam. But Doug's analysis sounds on the money.

[Skipcam]

I know of several Network, syndication and cable shows that are being shot on 2/3" XDCAM SD. I know of only one show that say they will be starting to take the 1/2" XDCAM HD product (that's the Leher news hour on PBS). The CBS O&O's that are taking delivery of the PDW-350s are going to use them in 4:3 DVCAM (SD) mode. So my question to other freelancers is: who is going to take the HD product from these cameras? Douglas, you and FLACA in Florida are the only people I have heard of who own these cameras. I assume you use them in a closed loop system. That is, you can control the product from acquisition to final edit. If not, what have you been shooting with those cameras? Most freelancers only do acquisition, hand off the tape and it's up to the client to finish to final product. With 2/3" XDCAM, I see a small but increasing client base who can take the disk and fly away with it. But if Sony is pushing this 1/2" HD/SD product to freelancers....who are we going to sell it to? As EFP rightly points out, we have to give the client what they want, and I can't see anybody who wants this 1/2" XDCAM HD disk. What am I missing here? I will concede that either XDCAM SD or HD camcorder can shoot a 4:3 output that can be easily dropped to DVCAM tape and service the lower end corporate work that has been on DVCAM (DSR-570, PD170 etc.) for quite a while.

[Baltimore Shooter]

Well, one thing is for certain, the 1/2" HD XD look FAR BETTER than those hdv handycams. Not only can you hold them steadier, the picture is amazing. Take a look at the demo DVD or even the online demo of that camera. For the price, it beats the others. Though I wish Sony would hurry up and get a 2/3" HD XD on the market.

Warren

[Douglas]

Skipcam,

You are correct. I'm primarily using the F350 on my own projects so I can use whatever I want. However, I've had a few corporate clients bite for the F350 when I sold them on 24/30P and the benefits of archiving HD footage for the future. I charged them a nominal fee for dumping it to a DV firewire drive for them and everyone is happy.

I'm getting out of the day-hire freelance business anyway, so I don't really care how long it takes the kind of clients I used to shoot for to catch on . . . but I predict they will. Whether it's 2/3" or 1/2" doesn't matter, XDCAMHD is going to be the next Betacam. If I could buy stock in XDCAM-HD, I'd invest heavily. It's coming.

Doug

[dinosaur]

Though I wish Sony would hurry up and get a 2/3" HD XD on the market. Warren

I really hope your D600 is paid off.

With Sony saying that its price point for a 2/3" HD XD is going to be around $60,000+, add $18-20,000 for 2/3" HD glass, $3,000 for a HD-SDI Monitor and $10,000 for a playout deck. I hope your client base can sustain the $80,000+ package that you're in such a hurry for.

Maybe you can sell your D600 & lens for $15K when your new dream camera hits the streets.

[Baltimore Shooter]

I really hope your D600 is paid off.

With Sony saying that its price point for a 2/3" HD XD is going to be around $60,000+, add $18-20,000 for 2/3" HD glass, $3,000 for a HD-SDI Monitor and $10,000 for a playout deck. I hope your client base can sustain the $80,000+ package that you're in such a hurry for.

Yes Dino, my D-600 was paid off 3yrs ago. I believe when that camera comes out, it'll be the 'must have' camera like the D-600 was. And I think we won't have the trouble w/ clients that we have now, like those who think the POS pd150 et. al is better because it's digital instead of analog or that it has 24P or 900x digital zoom.

They won't even think of using it as a main camera, it will be for those dangerous locations where you don't want to risk the HD XD. They'll want the HD XD, thus we'll be able to make our money back on it faster .

And as far as a playback deck, I'll need to get an HD playback/record deck when I upgrade to my edit system to HD anyway. However w/ the HDXD camera, we'll be able to play video out of the camera anyway just like you can w/ Digibeta (along with audio) but with no head wear.

So I for one am ready.

Warren

[Hiding Under Here]

How are we going to make our money back faster with an HD XDCam than with the D600? You'd have to charge more for it to do that. I certainly can't work any more days than I do. In fact, I work too many days already. I barely hve enough time for the accounting, not to mention being a father to my kids. So I'd have to charge more for the camera.

If the HD XDCam penetrates the market as people seem to think it will, everybody will have one. That's not a good thing. In this latest go-round of HD production look what happened. The F900 was initially a rare and exotic bird because it was so expensive. In the begining, freelancers were charging upwards of $2500 for the camera, photographer and sound tech. More demand for the camera developed. And F900s became more plentiful. Did the price go up? No. Did it stay the same? No. It came down. Why? Because rental houses were essentially the only organizations rich enough to afford the F900. So they bought them and began to control the market for them. The vast majority of freelancers didn't have enough F900 work to buy one of these expensive cameras. So you rented it if you needed it. Now the rental houses controlled the pricing structure for the F900 and the daily rate plummeted. Why? Because when things got slow, the rental houses panicked and they made deals to keep the cameras earning money. It was better for them to keep the cash rolling in than to get too proud and hold the line on their rate structure. Also, they had no competition from us. We couldn't cobble enough F900 work together to justify the price. So the path was unimpeded -- rental houses bought as many F900s as they could support and they cut deals DIRECTLY with producers. We got eliminated from that process. And that hurt us in the long run.

So now let's jump ahead to the future. The HD XDCam makes it debut. The centralized production agencies -- like the networks -- are weaker than they were in Beta SP's heyday. They don't make nearly as much news-style programming as they did in the mid-1990s. And they don't need super-HD for news/news magazine programs. They just want their footage to conform with their broadcast standards. If they are broadcasting in 16x9, they want it 16x9. If they are broadcasting in HD, they want it HD. Do they really need 2/3" CCD HD versus 1/2" CCD HD? Probably not. Can the cameras be synched together on multi-camera shoots? Can they be matched in the field with a minimum of fuss? Do they make the correspondents look good? Those are, perhaps, even more important factors than the quality of the HD.

So where does the HD XDCam work come from? The History Channel? Discovery? PBS? Maybe a quilt of clients who always want the best. But will they pay for it? Will they let you charge $2000 a day? $1800 a day? To recoup your costs? Not likely. You'll be lucky to get $100 more a day than you charge now. Why? Because they will offer you the promise of more work down the road and you will need them to help pay for your investment.

And now you're competing with the rental houses. You don't think they're going to back down now that they've had a taste of HD profits? Do you? Rental houses will be working totally against you. Question: You want to get rich? Solution: Find a way to earn money while you sleep. A freelancer only makes money while he works. Rental houses make money while their gear is out on jobs they don't work. Keep that camera out on jobs. Make it work as much as it can. You, the freelancer can't do that. You have a breaking point and a finite client base.

So how are you going to pay an HD XDCam off more quickly? My belief is that you will not. The D600 is a one time deal. It's over and done. New cameras will bring with them a new business model. They will not pay for themselves over and over again -- in my opinion -- like the Betacam did. So, if you go into it looking to replicate the quick payoff of the past, I think you will be sadly mistaken -- and just plain sad -- about the results.

[Baltimore Shooter]

You forgot the proliferation of reality shows. They weren't around so much in the mid 90s like the reality shows are today.

Also, w/ rental houses, they rent gear, they don't have crews. The client still has to call other shooters, audio techs, grips, gaffers, etc. The client won't want to have to do that much work when they can call an equipped crew, ready to go.

Warren

[Hiding Under Here]

The clients get a better rate from the rental house to begin with. Three days for five -- that's STANDARD. And if you match it, it's a 40% discount right off the top. Those reality shows go to rental houses for their gear and then they crew the job separately. That's how they keep their costs low. In truth, reality shows will show themselves to be cyclical just like news magazines. The future is the web -- watching news and entertainment programming "on demand", when you want it and in the sequence you want it in.

Technology is all about letting people choose what they ingest on any number of levels. Our challenge will be to figure out a way to plug into THAT paradigm shift. You're going to have to work smarter and be a lot leaner than in the past. I don't know how many of us will be able to afford the luxury of 2/3" HD XDCam. And this time it won't be SONY's fault. It's the natural progression of time and technology that will motivate change in the future.

[Shootblue]

Sony may be hurting themselves by pricing it too high...I know they basically have to re-engineer the laser setup for a higher bandwidth, but a lot of the technology in that camera is already existing...With a 7 year warranty on the laser system, and the outs you need on the camera for full quality playback, why not use the camera as the deck? I have talked to at least one freelancer who plans to go that route. I know that you may have the rare occasion to have to record in video, but rental may be a better way to go for those rare times.

Of course this is the first version of the camera...if you can wait til the next one comes out you will save...get a demo and save...used HD glass and save, etc.

[Nino]

Warren , think about what you said about Michael Rosenblum in one of your recent posts, and that’s about him for his own convenience only talking about high end and low end productions and never even mentioning that most production are right in between. Now think about the cameras that will be available in the next two years. We have pretty much established that small camcorders will be for low end productions and cameras like the Varicam and the anticipated XD HD 2/3” will be for the higher end productions. There’s a very large area left in between, let’s call it mid-budgeted productions, that kind of stuff that we do everyday. Clients who do not follow into the high or low categories will look for value. Value does not mean cheap, value means a fair and good balance between costs and quality. What will the client have to choose is the question that we should all ask ourselves. When I kept predicting that the ½” XD HD will be the replacement for the Betacam I was never referring as that camera being the best on the market, my was a business calculation. If a client wants to maintain the daily rates as they are paying now, when the Betacam is gone what will be available to them? If like you and Ivan are saying that the next acquisition camera will be the 2/3” XD HD camera, then the average daily rates for productions will have to increase to the same level as the current rate of the Varicam, because the cost of the new 2/3 camera will be similar to the cost of the Varicam. So in reality what you and Ivan are predicting is that all production’s standard daily rates will have to rise to what is currently considered higher end productions. Of course that would be really nice but it will never happen. Clients will look to maintain their current costs and the only way to do it will be to hire crews equipped with a mid-priced camera that will continue to provide the quality of picture as the current Betacam, and the only one that can provide a good workflow and is currently (and in the foreseeable future) available is the ½” XD HD.

Another risk in investing in a high priced camera is that technology is advancing too fast. It has been a standard for the last 15 years that the camera pay-off was 5 years and insurances depreciated cameras over a period of 10 years. Those days are gone. Today we are lucky if any technology we invest will have a three years life before being considered obsolete and replaced by new technology. So before we even think about making a large investment we better make sure that the demand for it is there before making the purchase and not on speculation, or you might find yourself owning the bank more money that the camera is worth.

[EFP]

They don't need super-HD for news/news magazine programs. They just want their footage to conform with their broadcast standards. If they are broadcasting in 16x9, they want it 16x9. If they are broadcasting in HD, they want it HD. Do they really need 2/3" CCD HD versus 1/2" CCD HD? Probably not.

They probably don’t need “super HD” but they do need to conform with their broadcast standards – as close to “studio profile” as possible.

Take the F350 and shoot a live feed under normal circumstances and it will look good enough – in fact under the right circumstances even people like me may be fooled into thinking that it’s a 2/3i camera. (although something fishy was going on MSNBC with one of the live feeds at the shuttle launch)

Now take the same camera, do some tough shots with it –lay it to disk in low 4:2:0 give it to the post people, they may need to do some heavy processing with it – maybe the cameraman will even need to do heavy green screen work – have it processed and air it. I guarantee that even the average person viewing at home will see a difference between that and a 2/3i 4:2:2 cam. This is the area many freelancers still don’t understand.

I hate to sound like a broken record but look at past facility decisions. The 2/3i SD XD DVCam is an exceptional camera. No other 4:1:1 camera comes close to it. Yet why are the network level facilities putting in the much more expensive IMX??? You must also know that the IMX model is not compatible with the new HD-XD line.

The only reason I can think of is they are “conforming with their current SD broadcast standards (studio profile) while also getting ready for their HD standards.

Some of you may be thinking that Sony could come out with a “deck only line” a deck that will take a SD IMX-50 4:2:2 signal disk and up-convert it to the 4:2:0 35Mbps XD-HD signal and vola – compatibility issue solved. But would this really be up-converting the image? Maybe in resolution but certainly not in S/N noise, sampling quality, artifact ratio etc. Somehow I don’t think the facilities plan on going this route. If you refuse to get what “they” want tough for you – they will either buy some people out (like NBC) or start looking for people that abide by their gear requirements. Sorry.

The 2/3i 4:2:2 XDCam won’t be “super hd” just good, almost near studio quality” HD. If you want “super hd” you need to buy a full-raster 1920 by 1080 4:4:4 BETA SR….

Mr Matt Box,
Thank you for explaining to Nino what I meant with the SD XD sales.
I may need you for further translation for Nino – please stand by.:D

[JCTV]

Let me get this straight, everyone on this thread work “exclusively” for the networks? I think not. My work is split roughly 60% broadcast and 40% corporate. I bought my F350 for the 40% that have various requirements. I look at the networks to be on of the LAST to convert to another format. I am not sitting around waiting for the “big” shift while there is work available now. Converting producers over to a new format is a slow process, usually one by one.

I have lived through this before, this will show my age but, back in 1982 I worked for a television station that got the first Betacam in Florida. News had just converted from film to ¾” tape and 1” tape was considered the broadcast standard. I worked in commercial production and worked for a lot of ad agencies using an HL-79 with a Sony 1” portable recorder. All was fine until Sony drops this “thing” in our lap. It had no cables, all one piece and, get this, a single tube….blasphemy! Who would ever accept this as a broadcast standard! We got a client brave enough to give it a try so we shot in New York, St. Louis and Denver in various conditions and guess what…they loved it. We converted client by client, one at a time, to Betacam and you know the rest.

There will not be a flag drop to convert to a new format, and I don’t think you should be looking for the networks to be giving you an answer. The simple fact is you will have to deal with multiple formats for years to come. Betacam will die a long slow death and the glory years of one camera fits all will die with it.

[Nino]

Let me help you out Ivan so you don’t have to bother Matte Box. The “Same period “ statement is either misleading, dishonest of ignorant. Most likely you cut-and-pasted from one of the many press releases that you’ve been quoting. Ivan, were you around in 1986 when Beta SP was introduced? I was there and I also was spending big money. Making any comparison with the release period of the XDcam is just plain nonsense. If Sony used this as a comparison to show the success of the XDcam over other formats then that’s just plain dishonest and deceiving. When Beta SP was released in 1986 it was no picnic. The system was plagued with problems with both the equipment and the newly created high density metal tape. It took years for Sony to clear the problem, what made it worst was that they never acknowledged having problems. In 1991, five years after the BetacamSP introduction I took my BVW 400 on an oversea assignment. We brought along a BVW35 to check tapes and we did that regularly several times a day. The tapes, over 40 of them, look good on the BVW35, but when I got back to editing, the video was unusable. Sony had an entire bad batch of tapes and they never bothered to tell anyone, not even to the dealers that sold the tapes. What happen was that the clear coating on the tape was flaking off and clogging the control track head. On top of this Sony had an anti-clogging head available and started selling new cameras with the new head but again never informed previous owners of the potential problem. The problem was so widespread that Sony modified several BVW75 decks to copy the bad tapes and reintroduce the control track. Five of the 40 tapes were not recoverable. We had to send a producer and a crew back oversea to re-shoot the missing footage. The corrective service of course was free but you had to get the tapes at their offices in NJ. And of course they also put in the anti-clog control track head at no charge. Very generous of them considering that the camera was only few month old when this happened. Again Sony never acknowledged having any problems, we considered legal action but the cost would have been prohibitive. As a compensation for the problem that never really existed according to them, they gave me 200 free tapes, the good ones. Of course there was no internet back then so we did not have the means to communicate with other freelancers. I can assure you that something like what happened to me 15 years ago would never happen today. Ivan, these were not rumors or press releases, this happened to me and this was just one of the many problems that kept on surfacing over and over again until Sony slowly got rid of all of them.

When making these comparisons keep in mind that video back then was in its infancy. The reduction of tape size was also what worried many in the business as the formats went from one inch, then down to ¾ and then ½”. It was not only a new tape format; it was a change from composite to component. Getting a post production suite wasn’t just a matter to feed a deck into a computer. To get a basically equipped component A/B edit suite with ADO and graphic generator you had to spend at least $400k, I know because I did it. The timing of the components signal was critical and very difficult to maintain. Because the equipment for an editing suite had to come from different manufacturers it took months to get a system at full speed and after that it took us at least one hour each day to retime everything as temperature changes and small current fluctuation was instantly throwing the component timing off.

Ivan, did you mention something about NBC? In the late 80s we were doing some subcontracting for NBC. This is when Panasonic came on strong with their MII component system. NBC did the 88 Olympic in Korea with the MII and the press releases went wild. That was supposed to be the system to have. I invested over $200K in equipment that came back from Korea so I could better service NBC. Without going into details, 9 months later I sold all the MII equipment for $80K. And very silently NBC started installing and integrating BetacamSP decks into the MII system until Betacam took over.
Maybe now you understand why I don’t believe in press releases and I’m very skeptical about everything that manufacturers say until I see it myself.

[Hiding Under Here]

The participants on this board have been discussing the migration of video formats away from Betacam for a number of years. No one works exclusively for the networks here. Nor is anyone waiting for some sort of signal from the outside world to run out and switch formats. The current shift in this topic is about whether freelancers will be able to afford the more expensive 2/3" HD XDCam if and when it debuts.

Betacam was introduced in 1982. It didn't catch on as a one-piece format, utilized in a film-style configuration, until about 1990 with the advent of the BVW300A/400 and the Ikegami V55. Until then, independents were shooting with Ike 79EALs (the most popular camera ever produced until that time) and portable Beta recorders. SONY may have invented Betacam, but they were unable to make a satisfactory camera. Until the Ikegami made it's debut, there were still those who believed that tube cameras were the way to go. Once the V55 and the improved BVW400A hit the market, shooters' reliance on tube cameras evaporated. The explosion in Betacam (SP) sales is directly tied to the rapid expansion of the role of the freelance photographer. And the occupation of freelance photographer would hardly be half as populated without the reliance of the networks on them to create their day to day product in the field.

So while no one is waiting for the go ahead from the networks, it is absolutely understandable that many of us would look to them for some clue as to how to proceed, since they will be assisting us in amortizing the cost of these new cameras. People in closed loop systems, those who shoot and edit for specific clients, can afford to choose any format they wish and deliver masters on the appropriate format. Those of us whose livelihoods are closely tied to network programming, must be a bit more cautious. If we jump in and buy the 350 simply because we think it's a great rig, we might realize, too late, that we have impulsively made a mistake, the likes of which we will be unable to buy ourselves out from under. In the meantime, trends come and go. Some freelancers have been able to buy Varicams because they are closely aligned with the sports side of the networks. Seeing the increased demand for that camera, a number of our brethren have done very well purchasing the Varicam and using it to supplement their other non-HD network assignments. But not all of us have been so lucky -- and certainly not all of it is luck. However, one would do well to first at least see the oppotunity before acting. Equipment purchase mistakes can be very expensive.

Then there's the problem of the Betacam. The silly thing just won't go away. It keeps on ticking and ticking -- sometimes like clock, others like a bomb. Is it taking us too far down a road from which we will have difficulty turning around? I hope not. The funny thing is, people with HD cameras tend to find work for them. But it all becomes something like jumping into the speculative second house market. Maybe we're too tied up with the here and now to adequately understand opportunities as they present themselves. Perhaps a little proactive risk would help decide the matter once and for all.

For those who have bought the 350 I say best of luck to you. Keep on writing about your experiences with that system. Maybe one day those of us who haven't made the decision will have to backtrack and join you. I hope you'll hold the "I told you so's" to a minimum. But eating a little crow never hurt anyone. I see the camera and know what it is and what it does, thanks in large part to what I read here. But I am not hearing much about it in my world. The people I know keep talking about 2/3" CCDs. it could be that they don't know of what they speak. In fact, that's almost a certainty. Yet the chatter is loud enough that only a maverick would break from the pack and prove them wrong. In fact, I don't mind being in the pack at all, as long as I am close enough to the front to keep my eye on the leader. Who knows? Maybe I'll summon the ambition at some point to venture out and knock him off.

[Hiding Under Here]

I'm gonna wonder aloud about something else for a moment. Think about ethanol for a moment. Everybody's talking about it. Maybe our corn crop could ne used to end our reliance on fossil fuels. John Kerry makes a speech calling for ethanol pumps at every gas station in the next five years. He says that the Bush administration is in Iraq because of the oil. If Bush spent a few dollars promoting ethanol we could end our involvement in Iraq. Kerry draws a line -- terrorism, Iraq, oil, ethanol. problem solved.

Then I hear a news report. We don't have enough corn to feed us AND make the ethanol. Also, weather conditions could hard the corn crop and weaken us if it isn't ample. Etahnol might be something to augment our fuel needs. But it won't and can't replace oil. The problem is too big for corn to fix.

One look at B-Roll.net's other discussions brings the news that CN8 has stopped producing news. There's a freelancer here I know (who writes from time to time) who works for CN8. bad news for him. Also, when I turn on my computer it goes to the Apple home page. That website is now plastered wall to wall with all the television shows you can download on your iPod. Of course, none of them are news-based.

I think the predictions of total personal choice in visual media consumption have to be pie in the sky. Just like the ethanol is the elixir claims. Once everybody is watching TV on their iPods how will advertisers make decisions about which programs to purchase time on? And will certain programs, just like CN8, go under because people who watch TV on iPods have no interest in them? And what will the viewing platforms be? Cable television transmissions? Web broadcasts? Personal media downloads? Isn't that too fragmented to create audiences large enough to justify the expenditure of huge amounts of advertising dollars? And if ad dollars shrink or get more concentrated, won't advertising itself be challenged to change in some fundamental way that undermines advertising production?

Think also about programming that relies on regionally based video cameras. Certainly some fantasy/narrative programming will survive. So, too, will reality programming. That genre has established itself as a "keeper" and while it will abate to some extent, it will never go away. What about news and news documentary programs? Will there be enough money for feature news a la 60 Minutes? Enough funding for regular documentary programming like Frontline?

Or are those farms too small to produce the intellectual ethanol of the future? Will they be lost in the mass exodus caused by "personal choice"? And, if they survive, what kind of economic shape will they be in?

[Baltimore Shooter]

Well, as for the iPod issue, people will watch video on iPods for a while, partly because of the novelty of it, partly because it's "video on the go", however there are a couple of issues to
consider with that.

First, it's a 2" (or so) screen. People will watch tv on a 2" screen...for a little while and while on the go, but they won't want to come home and watch their favorite movie, sporting event, doc
series, sitcom, reality show, etc. on a 2" screen. They want to watch it on a larger screen...19, 25, 36, 50 or whatever. You can only watch a 2" screen for so long before your eyes hurt or you just get tired of the small screen.

I think "extras" will find their way to iPods while the main programming is still on regular tv (or some future form of it). Behind the scenes, previews, recaps, ect. will be on iPods, not entire tv
shows, news, docs, etc.

The other problem w/ iPods is that it's not like a tv. You still have to hook it to a computer and download the show, just like you have to download an MP3 file. What if the site that holds that
file is down? What if you don't have time to download it or are not in area where you can download it (out of town in a hotel, w/o a laptop for example), or that doesn't have broadband access or if the file causes the computer to crash or hangs up during the download (that happened to me)?

Don't get me wrong, I think iPods are great things, I'm not putting them down, but I don't think iPods are going to end television as we know it.

Even if, in the future, iPods can receive satellite tv, sort of like a mini version of Direct TV but w/o a dish AND that can record the show on the hard drive at the same time, that won't end news,
docs, or any other form of tv as we know it. Why? Because people will still want to see their favorite shows on a larger screen than 2".

With On-Demand, they already have a way to play ads to specific demographics and a way to insert different ads and product placements into programs already produced and that have already aired. Don't ask me how they can do that, but I remember reading something about that in TV Technology.

As far as regional channels like CN8, COmcast Sports Net, Mid-Atlantic Sports Net, I don't know what that means for them.

Warren

[EFP]

Nino now you’re just being plain silly. The SD-XDCam didn’t just beat out Beta SP in sales (same time period) The SD-XD line beat out EVERY FORMAT EVER MADE in sales (same time period) Not yesterday when there was less video choices but TODAY with all the NLE choices and all the DigiBeta and DVC50 and P2 and SX and DV and all HD formats. This of course doesn’t include handycams because as we know everyone in the world owns handycams.

But you know what Nino? You must be right – It's all dishonest. The SD-XD is blundered and non-existent. The facilities around the world employing it are none existent too. Nets around the world didn’t really invest in hundreds of cams each. There really isn’t thousands of SD-XDCams shooting as we speak. No realty program uses them. It’s all in my mind. All the staffers using SD XDCam (at the general b-roll discussion) are really me using fake monikers. All the freelancers at the XD forum (including Simon) don’t really shoot XDSD – they have DigiBeta and P2 and the GV infinity and DVHS and Varicams and HDCams. Yeah that’s it. Its either misleading, dishonest of ignorant.

I can’t believe you went on such a long rant about the XDCAM SD sales. Shows weakness in your argument. You know what was ignorant? All the folks who bought into MII. Were you one of those people jumping into a format without doing your long-term research??? Never mind….

JCTV, as stated before – I wish you and Douglas and everyone luck with the ½ XD purchase. As I said before, I believe the camera will be in demand. As a matter of fact Mal, the non existent and blundered SD-XD owner) just posted the (revised June 12/ 06) Discovery-HD-Canada format guidelines at his non existent site. And as Simon stated – as of now they accept the HDXD as long as you do all shooting in35Mbps with no HDV editing. These people are very picky (I know) and this opens up a huge market for you. (just don’t sell the BetaSP yet)

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/_includes/disclaimer/producers_guide/docs/HDSpec.logo.doc

Nino I was there (working in the broadcast industry) started in 1980 or early 1981 – sorry can’t remember the exact month I started…. I do know I wasn’t one of the ignorant mislead plain nonsense folk pushing for Mll…:rolleyes:

[Hiding Under Here]

Ivan, I don't want to get in the middle of this -- although I do hope it ends amicably. But I think it's important to say that this is the "freelance" message board and we all tend to look at things through the prism of the freelance television photographer business. In our world, SD XDCam has yet to arrive. And because we can see HD XDCam on the horizon and we know that has a better chance of being meaningful to us as greelancers, we tend to downplay the success of SD XDCam. Because it never became relevant to us, because we never has a need to use it much or to run out an buy it, and because the HD versions would seem to render SD XDCam useless to us, even with the world wide adoption of the format, on a freelance level (in the U.S.), it is somewhat inconsequential.

Does that mean SD XDCam is a failure? Of course it doesn't. We, as freelancers and as human beings -- and maybe even as Americans by and large -- tend to have a chauvanistic view of things. Out of sight, out of mind. Out of mind, not important. Not important, failure.

[PHX Shooter]

So Ivan, I'm not clear on something. With your evangelism for the SD XDCAM, are you suggesting that freelancers should be buying it rather than the HD XDCAM or at leastbe waiting for the 2/3" version to come out. I'm trying understand the relevance of the SD XDCAM in this discussion of the 1/2" HDXDCAM.

Also, not to say that any of the numbers tossed around are incorrect or misleading, but before you drink too much Kool-Aid, just remember that corporate marketing numbers are what they want them to be. That's one of the beautiful things about marketing, you can compare apples and gorillas and it makes perfect sense. It would be interesting to see what past numbers have been sales wise and how they have impacted and predicted future sales and format adoption on various markets. You need stats from third party sources in order to do that kind of analysis.

[Nino]

Ivan, I have to agree with you on this one, I was ignorant when 18 years ago I made the decision to purchase the MII system. Unfortunately I fell into the trap of trusting and believing in the integrity of magazine articles and one of the biggest names in broadcasting, who also happen to be one of my clients making a major investment in the same system. Sound pretty much what you’ve been preaching about the XDCam. However, those days I owned a large audio-visual/production company (sold in 1992) and my losses was merely a good tax deduction. You see Ivan, success doesn’t come without taking risks. You research it and hope that you've made the right decision but often risks fails and if it happen just use failure as a teaching tool and move on. That’s what entrepreneurship is all about it. But I tell you what’s worst than failures is one who insists that his opinions are the only right ones, one who tells others what they should do and who criticize and ridicule those who do not agree with him, all this while he never had the balls to take the risk and invest into his own business like those who he criticize did, that my friend is the description of a loser.

I had just about enough with you, keep on quoting and use others as examples of what your unique interpretation of our business should be, who knows maybe one day you’ll become part of it.

Now if you don't mind I’ll continue my celebration of Italy advancing to World Cup final after ousting favorite Germany on a 2-0 thriller in double overtime.

Forza Italia

[dhart]

My work mainly comes from crew booking agencies. (I'm not full-time in the location production business, but have other ways to occupy my time). I check with them at the first of the year for what formats are the most requested. Oddly enough it's still Betacam (around 80%) as of January 1 2006.

I'd rather be one of the last adopters of expensive new technology rather than one of the first. For one thing you’re likely to be in at least Ver 2.0 hardware and software, not an unimportant advantage.

As has been said many times on this forum we are not a production "island". Producers have to leave with media that can readily be ingested into their post-production flow. All these new formats are not ubiquitous in post-production facilities. Maybe someday they might be but not right at this moment.

Until I start getting calls for another format I'll continue to provide my customers what they want...Betacam.

[SimonW]

I'd rather be one of the last adopters of expensive new technology rather than one of the first.

On the other hand being last sometimes means buying new equipment just as it is being superceded by the next big thing. ;)

[joecam147]

I'm with HUH, as a longtime owner of equipment and freelancer for much longer I've seen formats, cameras, thenextbigthing come and go over and over. From my distorted view as an owner/operator the thing today is that those nextbigthings come faster and go away almost as fast replaced by of course 'thenextbigthing'. All we can do is speculate about making the right decisions and hope we make them while minting a little coin on the way. Although its been repeated ad nauseum here our business and clients decide what we buy so we can fulfill the need they require. Good Luck to all of you that have invested in XD, you are early adopters but I can safely say I have had no interest or demand for it at all and I regularly work in 3 of the top ten markets in the country.

[joecam147]

...that country being the USA.

[Canonman]

I know of several Network, syndication and cable shows that are being shot on 2/3" XDCAM SD. I know of only one show that say they will be starting to take the 1/2" XDCAM HD product (that's the Leher news hour on PBS). The CBS O&O's that are taking delivery of the PDW-350s are going to use them in 4:3 DVCAM (SD) mode. So my question to other freelancers is: who is going to take the HD product from these cameras? Douglas, you and FLACA in Florida are the only people I have heard of who own these cameras. I assume you use them in a closed loop system. That is, you can control the product from acquisition to final edit. If not, what have you been shooting with those cameras? Most freelancers only do acquisition, hand off the tape and it's up to the client to finish to final product. With 2/3" XDCAM, I see a small but increasing client base who can take the disk and fly away with it. But if Sony is pushing this 1/2" HD/SD product to freelancers....who are we going to sell it to? As EFP rightly points out, we have to give the client what they want, and I can't see anybody who wants this 1/2" XDCAM HD disk. What am I missing here? I will concede that either XDCAM SD or HD camcorder can shoot a 4:3 output that can be easily dropped to DVCAM tape and service the lower end corporate work that has been on DVCAM (DSR-570, PD170 etc.) for quite a while.

Well Skipcam, you can add me to the list. I am a F350 freelance owner/operator. That's the camera I am holding in my avatar(with 2/3 Fujinon HD glass at the time that picture was taken). I do mostly corporate stuff, occasional news stringing, and events (concerts, marathons, etc).

cm

[Flaca Productions]

Douglas, you and FLACA in Florida are the only people I have heard of who own these cameras. I assume you use them in a closed loop system. That is, you can control the product from acquisition to final edit. If not, what have you been shooting with those cameras? Most freelancers only do acquisition, hand off the tape and it's up to the client to finish to final product. With 2/3" XDCAM, I see a small but increasing client base who can take the disk and fly away with it. But if Sony is pushing this 1/2" HD/SD product to freelancers....who are we going to sell it to? As EFP rightly points out, we have to give the client what they want, and I can't see anybody who wants this 1/2" XDCAM HD disk. What am I missing here?

hey skipcam...
sorry - i just got caught up on this thread and wanted to clarify that i don't own an XDCAM of any flavor at this point. i'm just as you describe above - a freelancer that does mainly acquisition...at present with BetaSP (well - and my backup dvx100).

i have yet to have a request for XD from any client. i don't think you're missing anything - i'm with you.

[Canonman]

i don't think you're missing anything...

You're missing a very efficient workflow in terms of time and resources.

You're missing the ability to press record and have the peace of mind that you didn't just accidently tape over that important shot you were checking from earlier in the day.

You're missing the fact that you can press 're-take' when the talent flubbs their lines and instantly delete the last clip, thus restoring the media for immediate use.

You're missing the ability to use edit-ready files as opposed to spending one hour ingesting for each hour of material.

You're missing the ability to do in camera cuts only editing.

You're missing the ability to acquire, master, and archive all on the same disk. With shelf-life predictions of 50 years.

You're missing the ability to spend $30 on a disk that will re-write at least a thousand times without the failings of tape based media.

There's more, but I'll stop here.

The workflow is the beauty of this thing they call XDCAM.

cm

[Matt Box]

One more thing im missing....... any clients who request it yet. ;)



That said it does sound sweet.

[Canonman]

One more thing im missing....... any clients who request it yet. ;)

That said it does sound sweet.

Sometimes I feel obligated to educate my clients about the new technology and how it can work to both our advantage.

cm

[Douglas]

Sometimes I feel obligated to educate my clients about the new technology and how it can work to both our advantage.
cm

I couldn't agree more. Welcome to the F350 club. I love this camera.

Anyone want a good deal on an HL59/BVV5 or a DV7?

Doug

[Nino]

I wish we could join your club. We are all well aware of all the advantages of the XD formats, I would have no problem convincing my commercial clients to switch to a better HD format then the Z1 that I’ve been using for commercial projects lately, providing of course that I could keep the cost within the standard Betacam rates and the 350 could do just that. Unfortunately commercial work is only 10% of my business, not enough to justify the purchase, the rest of my business is broadcasting and we have no convincing power there, Betacam is still what they want as a main acquisition format.

[SandRat]

... the rest of my business is broadcasting and we have no convincing power there, Betacam is still what they want as a main acquisition format.


Changes will come fast. Better to cover all the bases with one camera.

[Canonman]

I wish we could join your club. We are all well aware of all the advantages of the XD formats, I would have no problem convincing my commercial clients to switch to a better HD format then the Z1 that I’ve been using for commercial projects lately, providing of course that I could keep the cost within the standard Betacam rates and the 350 could do just that. Unfortunately commercial work is only 10% of my business, not enough to justify the purchase, the rest of my business is broadcasting and we have no convincing power there, Betacam is still what they want as a main acquisition format.

Agreed, Nino. Had I not gotten a sweet deal on a gently used F350, I wouldn't have been able to justify the purchase either. That being said, the workflow your Z1 necessitates for commercial projects is taking you more time than the XDCAM workflow would. And to me, time is money. How happy would your commercial clients be if you could turn the project in roughly half the time of your previous jobs (all other factors being equal)? Better yet, how happy would 'you' be?

I only posted all those points earlier in response to Flaca's statement. And it's really the workflow I immediately fell in love with. It works for my type of business. I am roughly opposite of you in that only 10% of my stuff is for broadcast.

cm

[Canonman]

I couldn't agree more. Welcome to the F350 club. I love this camera.

Anyone want a good deal on an HL59/BVV5 or a DV7?

Doug

Thanks for the welcome, Doug! It's a good club to be in.

cm

[cameragod]

Had I not gotten a sweet deal on a gently used F350, I wouldn't have been able to justify the purchase either.

Must be a few good deals around. Just took our new used PDW530P out of its box. 18 months old and beautiful. Already got two months bookings for it. If you buy one they will come.

[Douglas]

How happy would your commercial clients be if you could turn the project in roughly half the time of your previous jobs (all other factors being equal)? Better yet, how happy would 'you' be?cm

Wow. 1/2 the time? You must be saying that with tongue in cheek. I'm just wrapping up production of a very complex 90 minute video that took over 250 hours to edit. Logging and loading accounted for about one day. Yes/ there's time savings with XD, but not that much.

Doug

[Canonman]

Wow. 1/2 the time? You must be saying that with tongue in cheek. I'm just wrapping up production of a very complex 90 minute video that took over 250 hours to edit. Logging and loading accounted for about one day. Yes/ there's time savings with XD, but not that much.

Doug

I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, Doug. I'd say the overall time savings depends on the project. Just curious, did you buy a deck as well or are you using the camera as deck?

cm

[Canonman]

Must be a few good deals around. Just took our new used PDW530P out of its box. 18 months old and beautiful. Already got two months bookings for it. If you buy one they will come.

Awesome CG! This F350 was in pristine condition being only 2 months old.

Enjoy your new (to you) camera.

cm

[Flaca Productions]

I only posted all those points earlier in response to Flaca's statement. And it's really the workflow I immediately fell in love with. It works for my type of business. I am roughly opposite of you in that only 10% of my stuff is for broadcast.

cm

don't get me wrong - i LOVE the workflow concept of XD, but it just doesn't exist in my world at this point. As SOON as my main clients jump to XD and/or have the ability to take XD discs from me, i'll be all over a new camera.

YOU might be able to convince your clients to change over to XD (or P2, etc.) but I just don't have that kind of pull at NBC, ABC and FNC.

in fact, i'm disappointed to keep hearing that FNC is going P2. that really messes up my plans. nothing like having major clients accepting different formats....

i wish i could buy an XDCAM right now - i love new gadgets - but it makes NO sense for me. plus - the longer i wait, the more advanced they become. i could buy now and by the time my clients are set up for XD, there will be something offered in the XD line that will be newer, and greater.

[Canonman]

YOU might be able to convince your clients to change over to XD (or P2, etc.) but I just don't have that kind of pull at NBC, ABC and FNC.

in fact, i'm disappointed to keep hearing that FNC is going P2. that really messes up my plans. nothing like having major clients accepting different formats....

I totally understand, Brian. The networks have an infrastructure and large investments that the bean counters aren't going to let go of until they can wring every last dollar out those investments(ie Betacam). Eventually, it will all change to something else. It may not even be XDCAM when that change comes as you alluded to with FNC.

I wonder if FNC is going to buy the new 2/3 4:2:2 camera with 5 P2 slots announced at NAB. It's supposed to be shipping Q4 06 and the body is priced right around the same as the F350.

cm

[Flaca Productions]

thats a good question on the FNC/P2 issue. i know they have a current P2 cam on the streets being tested by the atlanta bureau. they have also had some in NY.

i know that one factor in their decision-making is media costs. i've been told that they did the math on how much they spend on tape every year vs. how many P2 cards that would buy - which would theoretically be a one-time cost. what they plan on archiving to, i have no idea.

[Canonman]

thats a good question on the FNC/P2 issue. i know they have a current P2 cam on the streets being tested by the atlanta bureau. they have also had some in NY.

i know that one factor in their decision-making is media costs. i've been told that they did the math on how much they spend on tape every year vs. how many P2 cards that would buy - which would theoretically be a one-time cost. what they plan on archiving to, i have no idea.

That's the ongoing debate between XDCAM and P2 right now. For folks doing documentary stuff, P2 is proving to be a bit burdensome with the limited recording time. They have to have a camera assistant just to shuttle P2 cards to offload to hard drive, erase them, and put back in camera. That part about erasing them really bothers me. And then there is the archiving issue as you mentioned.

P2 will probably do ok in ENG type stuff where the shooting times are shorter. As for archiving, I can see that happening with hard drive storage. With hard drives being cheaper these days, I know one person shooting P2 who buys hard drives for archiving. He dumps the raw footage and the finished sequence out to an external firewire drive, puts it back in the anti-static bag and shelves it.

cm

[Matt Box]

Kind of off topic but a few years ago there was an article on how many photo editors (still cam) who work for newspapers and wire services are a bit scared of digital cameras. Their point was that nowadays when a still photog is out on assignment he will take a large amount of photos and at the end of the day hand over the good ones and delete the rest. In the days of film they would send the whole roll back and the editors would archive the negatives after the pics of the day were used. They talked about the Monica Lewinsky story and how after the story broke they scoured the negatives in the archive to find a lot of pics of her at Clinton photo ops. At the time the pics were taken the photogs had no idea who this woman was or how big a story this would be. All the editors said that the newer digital technology makes it easier for images like these to be lost forever.

Anyway it was an interesting read, I assume they could just keep all the digital photos now but at the time it was a workflow issue that needed to be resolved.

That said I do like the idea that with an XD disc one could just keep the disc on a shelf. Interesting to hear FNC is more concerned about tape costs though. I just used the panny p2 handy cam on a HD shoot as a third camera and I have to say it seemed to spend most of the time waiting for PA's to clear cards. It also was set up for a time delay static shot over the course of like 3 days but when the editor tried to offload the footage it was corrupted.... not good

[Douglas]

Just curious, did you buy a deck as well or are you using the camera as deck?cm

Just the camera for now. I'm betting that by NAB next year Sony will have a cheapo XDCAM-HD deck with no monitor, no bells and whistles, just a plain old external computer drive that may or maynot work only in FAM mode. That's all I need.

Once they get that deck on the market, watch the clients jump on XDCAM-HD real fast. I mean, our clients only need to be able to ingest the material from the disk and that ought to be a cheap piece of equipment for Sony to build compared to thousands for a tape deck.

If Sony wants everyone to adopt fast -- release a CHEAP DRIVE.

Doug

[SimonW]

Yep. They were supposed to be releasing a drive that goes in the drive bay of a PC.

[Baltimore Shooter]

I just used the panny p2 handy cam on a HD shoot as a third camera and I have to say it seemed to spend most of the time waiting for PA's to clear cards. It also was set up for a time delay static shot over the course of like 3 days but when the editor tried to offload the footage it was corrupted.... not good

Yep, that's the thing I've been saying all along, that it'll take forever to download the cards and it a shot is corrupt, you're screwed. XDCam just makes much MORE sense. And if Panasonic had developed XDCam instead, I'd STILL say it's better format.

Warren

[Douglas]

It really needs to be an external player-only PC/Mac compatible for under a couple thousand bucks. Then Ivan could give us the statistics about 6 months later how XDCAM-HD was the fastest selling format of all time. That's about all it would take, and clients would be demanding the format. If Sony introduced that deck today, the market value of a Betacam would drop 50% by September.

Doug

[SimonW]

It should be possible for a read only device to be made very cheaply. I thought the drive that they had planned and then pulled was supposed to be around $500. I could be wrong though. Not that it matters any more.

[Nino]

Some follow-up stuff from the Seminars
__________________________________________________ ____
Thank you for registering for the Apple and Sony XDCAM HD event in Dallas or Miami. We wanted to communicate some important information regarding the availability of the XDCAM Transfer Software plug-in support from Sony discussed at this event as well as a whitepaper on Sony XDCAM HD support with Final Cut Pro 5. This software is now available to download from the Sony website. To download please go to <http://www.sony.com/xdcamhd>. To download the Apple whitepaper on Sony XDCAM HD support in Final Cut Pro 5, please visit <http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/resources/> and click on "Final Cut Pro and XDCAM HD" under 'White Papers'listed on the right hand side of the webpage.

We thank you for your interest in Apple.

Apple Seminars & Events

[Hiding Under Here]

Maybe this has been covered. But I'd appreciate it if someone would cover the lens issues involved here. I know you need to buy either a native 1/2" lens or convert. I'd like to know how much the converter is and what the issues are regarding it. Also, how much do good 1/2" lenses cost?

[Matt Box]

promax has the converter I think for around $800

[SimonW]

And for all their advancements if you go to a Japanese video rental place, all you can rent out is VHS!

[dinosaur]

Onemanbanned,

Thank you for posting your point of view to help set the record straight about how CBS News ACTUALLY conducts its business within the Broadcast Center in NYC. Some would have us believe that CBS News has figuratively thrown every other format to the curb at 524.

Anyone that has ACTUALLY set foot in that building would quickly learn that the XDCam format is not as ubiquitous as some have posted here. When one visits that building it is amazing to see how many different ENG style formats are still in daily use in that facility.

What amazes me when I'm there, is that its NOT the "network clean room", new & sparkling, streamlined, neatly wired and organized facility that some would imagine to be there. There are hardly "superhighways" of video data bouncing through every corner of that facility. Its really a "hodgepodge" of different generations of equipment strewn across several old buildings on the west side of Manhattan. Much of it not digitally interconnected. I think XD aside, having been in them, the facilities at NBC & ABC in NYC are considerably more modern and up to date than the CBS BC is.

Yes, there are many outposts of XDCam players there, but like you wrote they are just as common as Betacam SP/SX. There's still quite a bit of legacy that has to be dealt with for a long time to come. There's not some room full of people transferring library tapes to XD disks. Not surprisingly, you will also find islands of Panasonic DVCPro gear in there too, because CBS News & NewsPath has to deal with a fair amount of tape from its DVCPro equipped affiliates and remaining O&Os still using that format. The O&Os use of HD XD gear in the DVCam mode is extremely finite. You will also start to see HD XDCam move into the building because of NewsPath and CBS News' need to deal with that material coming in from outside sources and Ch.2 next door. Also, being that they share the facility with CBS Sports on weekends there's even Varicam , Digibeta (A500) & HDCam decks available for editing use. I'm still looking for that elusive HDCam SR deck in the CBS News tape room.

CBS News is not the behemoth that it once was. Saving money is paramount over quality now. Like you said "Essentially, it does not matter for news which format one acquires content on. Somehow, when a story needs to make air, video from whichever format used for acquisition always makes it your television set at home in whatever format 200 million people watch it on." They'll put it on the air whether it came from a PD 150 or XDCam with little in depth technical consideration.

The new president of CBS News is a big believer in HD from his work at CBS Sports. I think you will see him drag the news division kicking and screaming into the HD age rather quickly. You might even start to see many of the HD innovators he relied at the sports division start making the engineering planning & construction decisions at CBS News.

[Hiding Under Here]

I apprceiate all the thought and work people are putting into these posts. I find them extremely helpful. Of course I still have no idea what's going to happen in the future. But I feel as though I am better informed than I would be without having access to this kind of discourse.

CBS is my biggest client at the moment. I shoot for their magazine programs. That brings me into contact with many other freelancers who do the same. From what I know, having talked to members of that group on a frequent basis, the direction that CBS is taking in terms of cameras and formats remains a mystery -- as it does to freelancers at NBC and ABC, both networks which I also work for on a regular and consistent basis. In fact, most freelancers I know (myself included) understand very little about these changes in the format landscape. Because I don't attend industry trade shows or even local manufacturer demonstrations, most of what I do know comes from reading these posts.

It is a revelation to me that the 1/2" HD XDCam might cleave a bigger niche than one might expect in the production market. Everyone I know has written that product off as a replacement for Betacam-level productions. And yet I trust the knowledge and intuition of this group enough to reevaluate that industry intelligence.

I have often wondered why everyone assumes the tracks are greased for the arrival of HD. In this era when there is downward pressure on production budgets at every level, when kids graduating college have more available and affordable television production tools than we did at the apex of our careers, when folks on Craigslist advertise for gear owning DPs at $200/day, when the video viewing environment could range from an in-home theater to a stoner on the subway with a 2" iPod screen, I wonder how fluidly real HD production will be adopted at different production price points. In fact, will we ever in our lifetimes witness HD surpassing SD in the production milieu? Or will there always be some sort of striation in the market based on content and economic capacity at least until the SD gear finally gives out from sheer mechanical exhaustion?

As a freelance television photographer, one of the most important things to understand is that the camera -- particularly now because they are all so terrific -- is secondary to the craft itself. Certainly there is something of value in understanding the technical nuances, the bit rates, codecs and compression considerations. But the most important knowledge continues to be one's ability to produce excellent images while working within the unique culture of every individual client. It's also essential that we are people with whom other people like to work.

The freelancers I know generally don't have a clue about the potential of 1/2" HD XDCam. They have written it off in part because of the 1/2" quality of the product but also because they are interested in 2/3" cameras because of the obvious compatibility issues with their current equipment packages. However, these people are also smart enough and adept enough to turn on a dime and adopt that format if the market dictates that direction. The inherent flaw in that pack-like mentality that I sense is that in this market one might do better to be proactive about what they own, to continue to work the equipment they have but to also buy something that might take them into an area where they'd like to be two, three years down the road. In the past, taking that kind of approach was extremely risky. A number of freelancers made expensive gambits on HD when the technology simply wasn't up to snuff. Thise examples resonnated with traditional freelancers and they burned them into their memories so as to try and avoid similar impulses.

I guess what I am sensing is that kind of slow-footed reaction to format evolution might not be warranted at this point. Still, it's a risky venture to stake oneself to a format that clients are not yet asking for. The person who wrote "If you buy it, they will come", presents a frightening challenge to an old -- and perhaps outmoded -- way of thinking.

I'm just wondering how wrong they might be. Maybe not anywhere near as much as five years ago. And if that's true, it goes against one of the basic guiding principles all of us have written about here over the years.

[Canonman]

The freelancers I know generally don't have a clue about the potential of 1/2" HD XDCam. They have written it off in part because of the 1/2" quality of the product but also because they are interested in 2/3" cameras because of the obvious compatibility issues with their current equipment packages. However, these people are also smart enough and adept enough to turn on a dime and adopt that format if the market dictates that direction.

Some really great posts here. HUH, I am quoting this part of your above posting to say that maybe Sony was thinking about those with 2/3 investments (ie: lenses) when they elected to make a 1/2 to 2/3 adapter (Canon makes one also), and put the connector for a 2/3 lens on a 1/2 camera.

cm

[cameragod]

We have been talking long and hard over what camera to go for next. There was no doubt it would be XD just whether or not to go for the 1/3 HD XD or wait for the 2/3 HD XD. While I have no problems with the 1/3 XD cameras I worry that when the 2/3 comes out the 1/3 will be seen as the camera for lesser smaller lower budget productions and that’s not were we want to be in the market.
The thing was even if the 2/3 came out next year we probably wouldn’t finally get one till 2008. That’s a lot of potential work missed.
When this 18month old 530 came up with player/recorder it was too good an opportunity to miss. It gets us into the XD market at the top SD level. Talking to local possible HD productions say they have no problems up converting SD XD to HD. We have only had it this weekend and already we are getting a lot of calls with interest for work.
Normally we only buy new cameras but take the head wear out of the equation and suddenly a used camera is looking a lot better option. Well keep you up dated on how we go.

[Douglas]

While I have no problems with the 1/3 XD cameras I worry that when the 2/3 comes out the 1/3 will be seen as the camera for lesser smaller lower budget productions and that’s not were we want to be in the market.

I don't mean to nit pick but there is no 1/3" XDCAM.The F350/330 are 1/2" cameras, and that's a big difference. Yes, 2/3" would be nice, but it will also be quite a bit more expensive to buy, and as Tom stated, budgets are not headed that direction. I wouldn't we willing to spend very much extra for a 2/3".

The only possible advantage I see that a 2/3" XD will have over the 1/2" XD is depth-of-field. Big deal. You learn to work around it. If you can get over that issue, then there's no reason that the 1/2" isn't going to be good enough for 99% of most of us shoot. If quality was that big of an issue, we'd all be shooting on F900s everyday.

Tom, if you want to come down and borrow the F350 and shoot some stuff around my town on your own, I'd be happy to have you come back and watch it on my 17" HD Panasonic. You'll like what you see. But then again, why rush? I suggest everyone just wait and see if there is going to be demand for the camera beofore spending the money.

Doug

[cameragod]

Sorry. I wrote it this morning without my glasses on… I was waiting for my turn in the shower and I don’t put my glasses on till after I shower or I get pimples on my nose… um… possibly more information than you wanted.
I think you are right about 1/2 vs 2/3 but it’s the perception I worry about. If 1/2 is seen by producers as an industry format and 2/3 the professional format then the reality of it won’t matter.
Still thats a long way away and by going XD now we hope to be well up to speed on disc workflow and technologies by the time we have to make a HD decision.

[Canonman]

I don't mean to nit pick but there is no 1/3" XDCAM.The F350/330 are 1/2" cameras, and that's a big difference. Yes, 2/3" would be nice, but it will also be quite a bit more expensive to buy, and as Tom stated, budgets are not headed that direction. I wouldn't we willing to spend very much extra for a 2/3".

The only possible advantage I see that a 2/3" XD will have over the 1/2" XD is depth-of-field. Big deal. You learn to work around it. If you can get over that issue, then there's no reason that the 1/2" isn't going to be good enough for 99% of most of us shoot. If quality was that big of an issue, we'd all be shooting on F900s everyday.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I assumed he meant to be typing 1/2 as opposed to 1/3. I have heard some rumors that the 2/3 camera body would go for around $38K as opposed to $25K for the F350.

As for 2/3 chips, yes they offer shallower DOF but the main thing is they offer more dynamic range. A 2/3 chip has 600% more range than a 1/2 chip. The advantage of a 2/3 camera for ENG work is of course having the range to cover a lot of different shooting scenarios.

cm

[Hiding Under Here]

Doug thanks for the invite. Hopefully I'll be too busy working to take you up on it. That's my solution to everything -- keep working.

I don't write what I do merely to express anxiety or concern, although I'm sure it sounds a lot like that. I get to work with a fair amount of freelancers because I do multi-camera shoots. As we set up the lighting we have close to two hours to talk about what's on our minds. I tend to be a person who likes to listen to what other people are thinking about. So, on those occasions when I do discuss the possibilities for the future and the personal approaches of freelance television photographers dealing with it, I am always struck by how isolated many of these guys are. trust me when I say that the vast majority of them hope to be using Beta SP five years from now. Few of them even know there is a 1/2" HD XDCam on the market.

I'm not trying to portray freelancers as ignorant. That would be extremely inaccurate. In fact, I think the freelancers I know, both sound and camera alike, are some of the smartest, most worldly people I know. However, like me, they are just trying to make a living. They see past the technology having had it riding around with them in their trucks for non-stop for the past twenty years or so. When something new forces it's way into their consciousness, they'll deal with it then, not before. Sure there are a few proactive guys. They tend to own Varicams or SDX900s.

So, when I do write on this matter, I guess I'm doing it with those guys in mind. I'm lucky in that I know about this forum. Most of them don't and the thought of visiting the internet and discoursing with other freelance television photographers is amusing to them.

[SimonW]

Canonman, I think you probably meant 200%. Although I am not technical enough to understand fully what is going on. Going by the DCC the XD HD can cope with 400% overload, while the SD XD's can do 600%. The limitation in dynamic range is shown by the S/N ratio of 54db with a sensitivity of f9@2000 lux compared to 63db (PAL) and f11@2000 lux for the SD XD's.

I've been working with XDCAM HD footage for the last few weeks and I have to say that I still prefer the 2/3" SD XD footage over the new high def camera. And thats saying something because I use the 510 which is DVCAM based.

What I have found is that the XDCAM HD footage cannot stand up to as much post adjusting as the SD XDCAM. The XD HD is also much, much noisier. Try shooting a deep blue sky and you'll see what I mean (I'll post grabs if anyone is interested), while the SD XD exhibits virtually no noise at all.

The other thing is that I have also been been downconverting the XD HD footage which effectively gives it 4:2:2 (or is that