Does anyone still get paid in 30 days all the time? [Archive]

Lensmith

01-24-2004, 12:16 PM

I've got one, count 'em one, bread and butter client who is great about paying in thirty days.

Everyone else, which includes some well known broadcast company names, make empty promises or acknowledge it will be closer to 60 days (more or less) before a check arrives.

I saw suggested in another thread having clients sign an agreement about payment before the shoot. That's cool and makes good sense but the reality is paperwork like that is only as good as your ability to enforce it. Enforcing it costs more money, or time...which equals money to me ;o)

I'm all for freelancers holding clients feet to the fire to get timely payments for work but...is your reality like mine? I have come to accept the fact payments will be later than 30 days. I'm not happy about it at all, yet to preserve my sanity, I've adjusted my "cash flow formula" and live life with a longer delay built in.

I'm not talking about dealing with total deadbeat clients. I'm refering to rather good clients who supply steady work, thus in my mind, allowing me to grudgingly accept a longer delay in payment time.

Of course my location makes 30 days more difficult to enforce. Now I negotiate more often and give a discount on my day rate for work if I get cash at the end of the shoot instead of playing the invoice/wait for payment game. This method has produced positive results to some extent.

No, I'm not undercutting. I'm still meeting my expense needs in exchange for money in hand instead of headaches chasing down past due payments.

Does everyone here sign some form of agreement with a client before the job in hopes of protecting themselves? Does it really work or is it more akin to an empty threat which might pay off if you have the time and money to go to court?

Is there really any way for us to force clients to treat us like other business' which expect payment for services in 30 days...like the electric or phone company? ;o)

Chicago Dog

01-24-2004, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Lensmith:
Is there really any way for us to force clients to treat us like other business' which expect payment for services in 30 days...like the electric or phone company? ;o) If you are, technically, a business providing a service, you should have the same rights as every other business. Enforcement of a contract is one of these rights.

A contract is legally binding, provided it's worded correctly. What about putting together a "general contract," one you can use as a template for various clients? It seems like it would be a good idea to put one together and then take it to a lawyer for review. You've got something to cover your business, and you're only paying a one-time fee to have it reviewed.

Should you have to take someone to court, the contract will definitely back you up. From what I understand, you can also seek reimbursement for court costs along with receiving your rightful payment.

I noticed that one of the guys in the post I think you're referring to mentioned he keeps the tapes until he's paid. Is this a widely practiced option?

Icarus112277

01-24-2004, 04:35 PM

I almost always get paid in about 30.

I have one outstanding for 50 days now- at 40 I started emailing/calling evry other day. Their accountant just called and got my info, so hopefully "the check is in the mail".

Baltimore Shooter

01-24-2004, 05:15 PM

Well let me start by asking is your mortgage, credit card, car, and insurance due every 60 days? Mine are not and I'm willing to bet that yours are not as well. Until that happens, I won't work for companies who want to pay in 60 days.

As a quick side note, I recently found out about 2 companies who I've worked for who pay in the 60 day cycle, they're not around anymore. Who knows if their payment policy had anythign to do with it.

If you're a freelancer, you're a business person and you need to conduct yourself as such. You just have to be nice and cordial, let them know that you want their business, but tell them "our payment terms are net 30 days". This may seem difficult at first, it was for me. But what I noticed is that they respected me as a business person. They could see that I wasn't going to allow myself to be kicked around by anyone. Again, be nice but be firm.

I've been in business for 10 yrs, and I've certainly made my share of mistakes along the way. I went to college for TV Production and like many others in this business, I ate, slept, drank and breathed television. I never studied business because I never expected to be owning my own business, so all my business skills are learned by watching what was going on at the production companies I worked for and at the school of hard knocks(hated that school!).

I'm happy to hear that you're not undercutting and that you are offering a discount to get clients to pay on time or even early. Just don't offer too much of a discount. Make it something that you can live with. Also, note the discount in your invoices. Next to your special rate that you gave them for paying early or in cash, put in parentheses (cash discount) or (discounted rate). This will remind that you are giving them a break for their prompt payment so they won't think this is your standard rate which they could to try to lower in the future.

There is another discount you can give that could make them happy and save you money at the same. It's called the "2/10, net 30" accounting practice, part of what accountants call the GAAP - Generally Accepted Accounting Practices. You give them a 2% discount on the rate if they pay in 10 days. If they want to pay in 30 days, there is no discount, the rate is the standard full price. In my production agreement I have a sentence that states "All clients are eligible for a discount based on the "2/10, net 30" accounting practice". 2% may not sound like much, but over the course of a year, it can add up. So it becomes a win-win situation.

I've had great success with my location production agreement. I admit I was worried at first, then someone told me that if they didn't want to sign it, they probably weren't going to pay you in the first place, or at least pay you late. I've even modified it for post production as well. When you rent cameras, decks, lights, etc. from rental houses, they have you sign a similar document, why should you be any different? If you have to rent gear and your client doesn't pay you, you're going to be hung out to dry because you still owe the rental house. You signed an agreement with them before they would allow you to pick up the gear, so it only makes sense to protect yourself. As a lawyer will tell you, if you don't have anything in writing, only a verbal agreement, you don't have a leg to stand on. I'm sure you don't want that to happen.

Keeping the tapes is a practice that was instituted long before I got into the business and if we all stick together, we can insure we get payed by continuing this practice. Try walking out of Home Depot with that nice new DeWalt drill and tell them you'll send them a check in 60 days. You'll have a pair of handcuffs slapped on you faster than you can say Betacam, and they won't be the fur lined handcuffs either. Have you ever heard of a car dealer who let a customer take the car off the lot without cash, a cashier's check, or some form of payment in full? If so, I'll bet they're not around anymore.

The bottom line is, this is a business, pure and simple. Just like any other business, you have to protect yourself against loss and fraud. By protecting yourself, you help to insure that you'll not only survive, but thrive. Hope that helps.

Baltimore Shooter

01-24-2004, 08:49 PM

Hmmm...looks like there some more advice in this thread - b-roll.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000335

Warren

dinosaur

01-24-2004, 09:11 PM

We must really work in different economic circles these days. I see net 30 payments as idealism and net 60 as the reality of this business these days. Maybe its just the type of clients I work for. Yes net 30 is very nice, but it seldom happens anymore with major companies. Reality.

I'm not saying its right, but I'm sure Tom F. will agree, even when you are dealing with major brand name clients like the networks there is a now a tendancy to pay us in the 45 to 60 day range. As a matter of fact NBC has told us that that they are now on a net 60 policy. There is nothing we can do to cajole them into paying us faster. In addition to that the networks set the rate structure, not us. They pay us very well, but it takes a while longer to get the checks. Its just the way the large corporate accounting bureaucracy works these days. Offering discounts do not work as incentives for them and they refuse to pay interest penalties, no matter how clearly its printed on your invoice. I've even discussed accepting credit card payments from them, to no avail.

When you are getting 100+ days of work from clients like these you tend to budget around the net 60 payments and don't bite the hand that feeds you. With quantitity comes a little financial leeway. They get gentle reminders after 60 days then a call to the accounting manager after 90 days. Yes, its frustrating, but you never want to burn your bridges with a major broadcaster that supplies a good percentage of your work. Carrot & stick.

There is another grade, a second tier of client that I treat quite differently. First time or infrequent clients that come with verifiable business references get a "due upon receipt" invoice and a very specific deal memo (contract) which spells out my payment, cancellation, daily rate/crew OT, extra gear & weather policy and penalties. It also warns that I retain copyright to all material until I am paid in full. It clearly states the huge penalties (30x invoice amount) for violating US copyright laws. New "cold call" clients without reputable references get a very strict deal memo and a demand for payment in cash or credit card at the end of the shoot. Those are the only clients that we say "no payment, no tapes" to.

You can see by my other post in "freelance" that no matter how well you try to protect your interests with contracts etc. you can still get burned. So you try to stick with brand name companies that will ALWAYS pay, albiet on more liberal terms. I can count on one hand the number of times we've been burned in over 25 years.

So even though your mortgage and credit card payments are due every month, that is secured credit, your accounts receivables are not. As an independent contractor you have to learn to budget your personal economics to accomodate for the slow payers otherwise you'll be having anxiety attacks every month when the "net 30" checks don't show up on time.

Baltimore Shooter

01-24-2004, 10:29 PM

Dinosaur,
With all respect, you're LETTING 60 days become the reality. I know many freelancers, myself included, who won't work for those slow paying companies. I've told NBC that I won't work for them because of their 60 day pay policy. I'm sure Tom Brokaw doesn't get paid in 60 day cycles. Have you talked to your union rep about this? What are they doing about it? After all they're supposed to represent you. Or you could do what I've done, and change focus (no pun intended) I've gotten rid of the news clients. Most of my work is in the documentary, magazine, sports and corporate arenas.

Dinosaur, reading your post, you seem like the 2 ton elepahant who's tied to the tree with just a thin rope. You have to realize that if we all stick together WE HAVE THE POWER! Imagine how difficult it would be for NBC to put a news show together if everyone refused to work for them until they changed their payment policies. Damn it man, don't cower down to clients like that, just because they're big.

I'll bet if it was you who owed money to NBC and you didn't pay for 60, 90, 120 or more days that they'd be reporting you to the credit bureaus. Are you a man or a mouse. Or maybe you really are a Dinosaur.

Photog Cowboi

01-24-2004, 11:12 PM

I am in the same boat Lens. I have been in dispute with my one client because the work was completed on Dec 1 and well...they still have not paid. I have gone down there and ripped folks up and down because of it. They said they were going to pay on Dec 15, then the 31, then Jan 15. All have gone by with no money. Now the asses are talking maybe this week or at the next earliest...Feb 20th! Jeez!

Oh and by the way...the person who hired me in the first place is now claiming that it is not their fault that I have not been paid! Tell me that is not an insult!

Nino

01-25-2004, 12:30 AM

This subject is as old as electricity. After 30 years in this business it’s still the same. The problem is that they are too many of us and not enough of them, they set the rules, is their way or the highway. Actually, as the W2 forms start coming in, if they had stopped sending me checks back in November and resume in January would have been really nice for my tax return.

You can scream, stand on your head or call for unity, it will not change. I’m sure that NBC was in a state of desperation when Baltimore Shooter refused to work for them. I really noticed a decline in program quality. I tell you what Baltimore, send the over 60 days to me; I buy a second package and give them 120 days to pay in exchange for 120 days of work, fair enough?

Cash flow is the first thing they teach you in business school. Negative cash flow is the number one reason of small business failure. If you know that revenue will not be coming in for 90 days, then have 90 days of $$$ reserve to cover all your expenses. Once the checks start coming, what’s the difference if they are 60 or 90 days old, as long as they keep-on coming. Not very difficult. The important thing is knowing that you will get paid.

Ed_Scott

01-25-2004, 12:49 AM

Nino reflects my opinion on this. And by the way, if you take credit cards, payment will arrive immediatly. With NBC, your labor check comes within two weeks, but the gear invoice is 60 days. You can now get paid within 3 days of submitting your gear invoice if you set up NBC's credit card payment option. Getting paid within 30-60 days after submitting the invoice is the norm and it's not going to change so you must adapt to it.

Baltimore Shooter

01-25-2004, 12:59 AM

Well, this is the first I've heard about NBC accepting credit cards. When did this start? Are the other networks doing this as well? Who do I need to talk to in order to get it set up? I accept credit cards, have been for years. Cool! Thanks for the tip.
Warren

Lensmith

01-25-2004, 01:00 AM

I appreciate all the viewpoints. Sharing insight about finances among freelancers is never an easy topic. I get the feeling we are all working under slightly different situations with different types of clients. Maybe my problem is the majority of my work is for news. I meet a deadline and make air. Holding back tape until payment isn't a realistic solution if I want return business from a news client.

Sticking together sounds nice. I don't think it is a real possibility. Too many are willing to undercut with hopes of future work or they're just starting out and haven't developed a real sense of business for the long term. I've been a victim of undercutting several times. My only enjoyment has come when each and every one of those undercutters failed and quit freelancing.

The big broadcast unions still treat freelancers like unwanted step children. We respect them and the rules but get little or nothing in return even when we pay dues. The unions really don't want us around if they had their way. Just to be very clear...I am very pro union besides the obvious drawbacks for me as a freelancer ;o)

Signing an agreement may work well for you folks who have access to a nearby legal system and lawyers you can trust. I don't have that luxury. I still don't think it's much of a safety net either. Like so many other legal things it comes down to how deep your own pockets are to enforce your own contract. Having a contract doesn't automatically translate into compliance no matter how loud we scream. Most freelancers I know are more willing to write off a deadbeat client, passing their name around to warn others, and move on.

The only client that really screwed me big time was CBS Telenoticias. Around six grand worth. It took me four years to finally see a check from them, and when I did, it was for much less than half of what they owed. The only reason I even got any kind of payment was because I joined forces with others who also had outstanding debts with them and we dealt with them as a group to get our money back. More lawyers. More time. More headaches and legal games as payment was delayed, taxed, clipped and finally dribbled out to us after all the lawyers took their share. Welcome to the realities of bankruptsy court! All the anguish and hours I spent staying on top of that debt wasn't worth it in my book. That's just my personal opinion based on my individual situation.

The fact is we aren't like other business'. We'd like to think we are but we aren't. Our only recourse is to refuse future business if it is offered.

Over the last few years I've learned to say "no" more often. To stick to my prices as well as insist on references and a guaranteed time of payment. No, it's not totally perfect but it's kept me from a repeat performance like the CBS Telenoticias experience.

I've done the invoice, late payment penalty thing. A penalty of some kind if payment isn't timely. They pay late, shorting me a couple of hundred bucks in penalty yet paying the price on the original invoice. Then I'm faced with chasing down a penalty amount which doesn't justify the time and expense. When that happens I either turn down future work (if I can afford to) or explain they have to pay up front if they want me.

Lawyers don't work for free. I've got two in my own family and even they, like every other lawyer I've known, advise cutting losses instead of going after small amounts of money. Small in the sense a job is less than ten grand.

I write this not to say others here are wrong in how they operate or what they believe. If you've got a contract you can easily enforce every time and it works, that's great!

My little backwater tide pool is no match to the level of someone like Dinosaur but I have developed the same acceptance of 60 day checks. My day rate in Nicaragua is probably lower than a top level freelancer in the states but here in Nicaragua, I'm considered the highest paid (some say too high for the region) freelance crew available. Not dropping to "local" rates even though I offer more experience and equipment has cost me work but it's also saved me aggravation yet I still make enough to have a good life doing what I love.

Sixty days does suck. At least it did until I adjusted the way I do business to factor in the extra time. Now it's not really a problem.

I do still dream of always getting a paycheck, or better yet cash, on the final day of every shoot but...that isn't real life where I sit ;o)

I'm glad you guys work somewhere that has a legal system which helps you during your rough times collecting debts. If I did the same thing I'd have to retain lawyers not only in the US but Mexico, Germany, Japan, Colombia, and England. As you can see, there does come a point where putting all of your "protection" in a signed piece of paper doesn't always guarantee real security.

I like Baltimore Shooter's ideas and faith hoping for honor among all freelancers. You have to admit that kind of commitment from everyone is impossible to achieve no matter how much we'd like it to happen.

Baltimore Shooter

01-25-2004, 01:20 AM

Okay, I thought I'd try to help everyone by posting what I use for a location production agreement. Feel free to modify and use it with your clients, have your attorney look over it, whatever you wish. Hopefully, this will help to alleviate some of our woes. Let me know what you think.

EFP / ENG LOCATION PRODUCTION AGREEMENT
This agreement is made between (your production company name) and (client's name) of (address, city, state, zip). (your production company name)will provide location camera crews, production personnel, and equipment to (client's name) for EFP/ENG production services. This agreement is valid from January 1, 2004 through December 31, 2004. Equipment will include a _____________camera and all associated equipment on attached equipment list. Additional equipment, personnel and tape stock required will be at additional costs.

GENERAL TERMS & CONDITIONS
1. Payment terms - New clients - payment is due upon completion of location shoot. (check, money order or cash accepted). Established clients will be billed on a net 30 days basis. A finance charge of 1.5% per month will be assessed on all past due invoices. All clients are eligible for a discount based on the standard "2/10, net 30" accounting practice. In the event any additional discount is given, payment is required within 10 days of invoice date, or standard rates will apply.

2. Full day rates are for a 10 hour day door to door. Overtime rate is time plus ½ per hour per crew member after 10 hours. Half day rates are for 5 hours. If shoot goes over 5 hours, a full day rate will be charged. One person crew rates are $750/half day and $900/full day. Two person crew rates are $950/half day and $1,300/full day. Rate does not include taxes, tolls, parking, or shipping. Tape stock is $30.00 per tape.

3. Cancellations must be made no less than twenty four (24) hours before the scheduled date to avoid a cancellation charge. If cancellation is made less than 24 hours before the scheduled date, the client shall pay a cancellation fee equal to the cost of the services of that scheduled date.

4. Client incurred waiting time will be charged at the appropriate rate.

5. Additional personnel can be supplied upon request. PA’s are charge at $200/day. Charges for Grips, Lighting Directors, Make-up Artists, Teleprompter Operators, etc. will be charged at current market rates. Overtime and excess travel are additional.

6. Client is responsible for the safety and care of all equipment while on location. In the event that any equipment is damaged, lost or stolen the client will be responsible for replacement or repair of said equipment, at the discretion of (your production company name).

7. If client's material (tapes, property, etc.) is stored by (your production company name), it is at the client's risk. (your production company name) shall not be liable for loss of any kind.

8. (your production company name) shall not be liable for failure to perform due to fire, inability to obtain materials, shipment delays, acts of God, weather conditions, or other conditions beyond the control of (your production company name).

I have read and agree to the terms of this production agreement as stated above.

__________________________ ______________
Authorized representative Date
of (client's name)

Ed_Scott

01-25-2004, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Baltimore Shooter:
Well, this is the first I've heard about NBC accepting credit cards. When did this start? Are the other networks doing this as well? Who do I need to talk to in order to get it set up? I accept credit cards, have been for years. Cool! Thanks for the tip.
Warren Contact who ever handles your invoices at NBC and inquire about it. I deal with Burbank, and they offered this payment option about two years ago.

dinosaur

01-25-2004, 01:25 PM

First off Baltimore, I always appreciate someone who writes analogies to compare me to a figment of their imagination, especially when they don’t know me or the overall performance of my business. I haven’t been around this level of the freelance end of this business for 25 years without having a realistic approach to dealing with clients. I am also glad that you have told NBC to take a hike and maybe you should tell CBS & ABC as well. Since you state that you do sports (ENG?) work too, I guess then you are going to forego working for ESPN, CBS & Fox Sports too? Until recently, they also tended to pay for gear in the 45-60 day range. I'm sure there's plenty of net freelancers near DC that will happy to take up NBC's "late paying" work. As Nino said, that’s just more quantity high rate business for the rest of us. I think the networks might survive unbruised because of your passing on their assignments.

1.5% of $1500. is a whopping $22.50. Is it worth hours of your time working in your office to recover $22.50 for someone who pays you in 45-60 vs. 30?

Let’s just say I have been down this road to the highest accounting management levels at NBC & CBS and it is NEVER going to change. The only improvement I’ve seen is that NBC Burbank has arranged that Unit Managers can now pay you for your gear with a corporate credit card. That’s only if you have the capabilities to accept credit cards and that costs $$ too. The card companies charge about 3% (paypal is cheapest) and about $150 per mo. for a credit card terminal. To me, that’s not very cost effective for just a few uses per month. I’d rather be a bit pragmatic about the big picture of a highly respected quantity client that will ALWAYS pay, albeit on more liberal terms vs. the acceptance of many lesser clients that induce much more financial risk and demands more time and effort to the accounting side of my business.

I’m sure that you also understand that in working for the networks your union labor fees may be paid with a payroll check in less than 30 days, but it has absolutely no connection to your camera equipment fees. Freelance equipment charges are NOT enforceable under the NABET & IBEW agreements. “Have you talked to your union rep about this?” Calling Izzy (NABET) or Lillian (IBEW) to help you speed up gear rental charges is a laughable concept. As they have proven by their actions in the past, they have no power or interest to do anything regarding freelance equipment rental fees.

Additionally, looking at your “EFP / ENG LOCATION PRODUCTION AGREEMENT”
otherwise commonly known in this business as a Deal Memo
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22deal+memo%22

I’m not a lawyer, but as a person with business degree I can see some loopholes that I would address before I personally would use a contract form like that. My own Deal Memos are much more specific in many areas, because experience has taught me that when you really have to enforce one in court, it had better be little more airtight. For instance it does not address physical, legal and financial liabilities involving the client’s actions or instructions while on location and in the show's release, ownership/copyright of the creative product before payment. My stated rates and overtime rates are specific for EVERY member of the location crew that I subcontract. I know first hand that you can really get in trouble with the phrase “current market rate” when it comes to contractual labor fees and a judge's interpretation of that phrase. I find that the the cancellation policy is quite vague. Meal, parking, tips and crew facility issues are not addressed. Anyway, that contract is only as good as your legal and financial resources to enforce it. If a client is hell bent on stiffing you for under $10K there is not much recourse that you have except throwing more money at legal costs.
If they go bankrupt you'll never see a penny, even with a small claims judgement.

Also, I’m sure its nice that you are getting $30. for a $10. Sony BetaSP tape. Does your client like the 200% markup on tapes when they get the bill? Most producers these days are savvy enough to know when they are being raped on tape costs. Not that I give them away at cost, I still make a reasonable profit on them, I just don’t want a client to come away sour by thinking I’m really screwing them on tapes just to make a slightly higher margin. Sometimes you'll never know that its the little nickel and dime stuff that can keep a promising client from returning with quantity work.

I won’t even get into the issue of “half“ days, which I feel is just as insidious and evil as rate undercutting. Really, how often are most of us able to schedule two “half” day clients in a single day? To me, half days are just another way of saying I’m going to cut my day rate by 30%.

I'm not saying that you should agree with me about what I say here, but notice that I haven't stooped to personal belittlement in what I write. What works for me, also seems to work for
most of the other freelancers that I know aaround the U.S., including the ones that frequent this message board. You're welcome to do whatever you please with your business. Maybe Nino, Tom & I can make some extra money as a result.

cameragod

01-25-2004, 03:06 PM

What works for me is to find out who in the accounts department is responsible for paying my account and ring them for a chat every now and then. Remind them that they help make all that glamorous TV stuff happen. They may work in a boring 9to5 job with no feedback but out there someone appreciates what they do and tells them they make a difference. Never blame them when payment is late, “Yeah sorry to bother you but one of my other clients, your opposition in fact, has let me down but I know I can count on you guys…” Sending them xmas cards and chocolate fish with the invoice as well as thanking them for prompt payments works wonders.
Since adopting this policy I get paid fortnightly or even weekly all for 10 to 15min on the phone.

HDTV

01-25-2004, 06:17 PM

Baltimore:

Do you really get clients to agree to item 6 on your list?

If I was a client, I would never agree to be financially responsible for your equipment, especially since I'm not the one operating it.

Do your clients agree to these, or are they not bothering to read your agreement?

Lensmith

01-25-2004, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by dinosaur:
Really, how often are most of us able to schedule two “half” day clients in a single day?Never of course. Now you're making me feel bad Dinosaur ;o)

I hadn't thought of it that way. I resort to the half day only when I know there's absolutely no way I'll make a deal on a single full day rate. All right, I'll admit most of the half day shoots I do don't even take a half day of my time. In that situation I'm still thinking of it as a positive since the money didn't cost me as much sweat equity.

Keeping in mind too I'm competing against US$200 a day "crews". My half day is well above there full day rate...which scares the hell out of me ;o)

Mike

01-25-2004, 07:04 PM

Greetings all!

I haven't been contributing much here much lately because I've been on the campaign trail a lot in the last several months. That being said, greetings to highly-repsected and long-time contributors Dinosaur, Lensmith, Nino and the ever-lurking Thomas, Douglas and Ivan; I always look forward to your contributions and insights.

While I agree that it would be great to insist upon getting paid in 30 days, I would never give up my income (and the work I love) from the likes of CBS News, 60 Minutes, ABC News or ESPN, or National Geographic. They are my bread-and-butter clients and there are times when they run longer than 30 days to make payment, but I am aware of this, get my invoices out ASAP and keep the cash flowing...once you get a cycle going, it can work...AND I know I will not get stiffed by any of them! Sure, I would love to get paid sooner, but I also know that I am but a single cog in a very, very big wheel.

Finally, I could not agree more with what Cameragod says about getting to know the invoice gatekeeper. I have had great success, for instance, with getting to know the assistant to the business manager at CBS News and he is a great help and a nice guy. Upon completion of my assignments, I fax him the timesheet and e-mail my gear rental invoice and payment comes much quicker than before.

--Mike

joecam147

01-25-2004, 09:02 PM

Lots of good points here and some ridiculous ones as well. Net 30 is in the same boat as Betacam, everyone still uses it but will accept or provide something else if there is no choice and you want the work. Contracts and late fees are fine if you can get people to adhere to them, if you can then that client is not the one you should fear but I can't imagine many clients would even agree to most contractual forms from a freelancer and as noted earlier who's going to enforce it ? Are you busy shooting or collecting ? We're not doctors or plumbers so we don't get paid after the gig and never will (unfortunately). 30-60-90 + days for payment is a reality we must all deal with. I can't imagine many people who are here or have been freelancing for any length of time are able to take advantage of the luxury that Baltimore has and tell good,legitimate, slow paying clients to take a hike and stay in business...for much longer. It is indeed a business and in order to keep doing it you take the good with the bad and as long as you know that no matter how long it takes you WILL get paid eventually THAT is the reality.

cameragod

01-25-2004, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by Lensmith:
quote: Originally posted by dinosaur:
Really, how often are most of us able to schedule two “half” day clients in a single day?Never of course. Now you're making me feel bad Dinosaur ;o)

Actually the half-day rate is my bread and butter as I often get 3 or even 4 half-days booked in one day. A lot of my overseas clients want to book me for one earpiece interview and a half-day is as low as I go.

Ed_Scott

01-26-2004, 01:38 AM

CameraGod, you are a rare breed if you can juggle 2-4 half days. Usually for me, assuming I agree to a half-day, the client wants us on site at 11a, then we shoot for five hours and home at 4p. Pretty much burns that day.

Nino

01-26-2004, 09:58 AM

Now, here’s another greedy nonsense that has been screwing up everybody, even the honest ones.

Tape stock is $30.00 per tape No retailer on earth makes 200% profit on any item, but in our business some of us thinks that we can get away with it. Actually I know of a few idiots that were charging as much as $50 for a $10 tape. So what has been happening?

I was very happy to add a $6 handling charge to every tape, and so were my clients. That amounted to a few hundreds extra bucks each month in my pockets. But on the contrary of what some of us think, clients are not stupid. Because of “you know who you are” idiocy, my client now ships me a case of tapes every few weeks, so now I’m taking care of his tapes for nothing.

Thanks for nothing guys.

Lensmith

01-26-2004, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Nino:
Now, here’s another greedy nonsense that has been screwing up everybody, even the honest ones.

quote: Tape stock is $30.00 per tape No retailer on earth makes 200% profit on any item, but in our business some of us thinks that we can get away with it. Actually I know of a few idiots that were charging as much as $50 for a $10 tape. So what has been happening?
I hope you consider me an exception ;o)

Several freelancers and production houses here charge US$40 and US$50 per 30 minute tape. I charge clients US$35 per Sony/Fuji 30 minute Beta tape for a couple of reasons.

I have to pay rather high import taxes to Nica customs on all new boxes of tape brought into this country. To put it nicely...they rape me. Thus I have to pass along the cost. It's not just the money. Every time I bring in new tape I spend at least half a day dealing with the customs officials. Filling out forms, playing nice with a half dozen different officials and standing in long, snail pace lines, (yes plural) for several hours. My time has some value!

The other reason is the higher price encourages clients to supply their own tape stock when they come here to work with me. Of course they can buy it and bring it cheaper, a practice I encourage.

I used to accept promises of being sent new tape to replace the tape I shot for them, but that turned into an empty promise too often. Calling to remind them to send tape, after receiving payment was an additional hassle I've decided to avoid.

If for some reason they need a break in price, I offer to send them material on one-pass tape, not new, at a lower rate...but never free.

I agree it's a crime to overcharge people but sometimes there are reasons to charge more! Honest!

Before I forget, I too bend over backwards dealing with my bread and butter accounting department folks. Cameragods practice of making sure they feel appreciated and respected is right on. It's amazing how a little card, note, hat, t-shirt, or in one case, a half dozen boxes of diet pills, smooths the way. Better personal service is the result when you're trying to find out what happened to a lost invoice or late payment. I don't do those favors as a bribe. I can honestly say we've become friends even though we have never seen each others faces.

cameragod

01-26-2004, 05:57 PM

I do get the clients who want their 5 hours worth but Wellington is New Zealand’s capital so I get lots of out of town clients needing a quick IV with one politician and as I have all the passes and parking clearance that usually only takes me an hour. I still have to be careful and make certain that everyone knows I have another job to get to at such and such a time but it is amazing how often things just seem to work out and how much clients will move things around to get the cameraman they want.

Baltimore Shooter

01-26-2004, 07:05 PM

Yes, HDTV, clients DO agree with question 6 on my production agreement. Knocking on wood here, I've never had a client disagree with anything the agreement. I honestly don't know if all of them have read over every part of it or not, I do know some of them have because they called back to ask a question or 2, but no one has ever refused to sign it. And these are clients I've had for several years. They sign the agreement for the first shoot of every year, as each one expires on 12/31.

Question 6 (ooh, sounds like a movie title)is an insurance liability issue. If the producer or one of their people trip and knock over the camera, they'll pay to have it repaired or replaced. Sure I have liability and equipment insurance myself, but why should I make a claim and/or risk being sued if they break their leg or something. What if we're at someone's house interviewing them and their Rottweiler gets loose, jumps on top of me and I drop and bust the camera? Should I be responsible for the thousands in damage?

I do like Cameragod's ideas about getting in with the invoice gate keeper too. Something I'll have to start doing.

BTW, Joecam147, about your comment "We're not doctors or plumbers so we don't get paid after the gig and never will (unfortunately)". With new clients, I do. I have been since I started with the agreement and I got paid after a shoot just last week. Many of these 1st time clients have become repeat clients as they know I'm fair and give them my all.

As for Nino's "No retailer on earth makes 200% profit on any item". I guess you've never bought Nikes or Tommy Hilfiger or Calvin Klines. These clothes are made in India for about $2 and, in the case w/ Nikes sold for about $175 a pair. Now I'm no mathematician, but that's waaay more than 200%. I'm sure homebuilders are making a sh..load of profit on the cardboard box of a house their building these days. Florists get 300% profit margin. I know because I dated a girl who's a florist.

Actually, I'm on the low end of tape charges, as LensSmith said, some people, not just in Nicaragua, but in DC, Phila, and NYC are charging $40-$50, so I'd say $30 is a fair rate. Echoing his statements about clients providing tapes instead of myself. I've also been promised they'd send tapes back "as soon as I get back", only to never receive the tapes or months later if I'm lucky.

Warren

dhart

01-27-2004, 11:47 AM

Another side of the story. Often it can take 30 days for all the "approvals" in major corporations. The executive producer, production manager and field producer (and maybe some others) all have to sign off on a freelance invoice. Then it goes to accounting who puts it in the 30 day pay cycle. This may explain why it takes so long for some companies to pay up, but actually it's how they treat all vendors so you better get used to it.

I recently did a gig for DIY (Do It Yourself Network) and a blizzard of paperwork was required including a 20 page contract. Don't get me wrong they were nice people to work for but attorneys run the place. All this takes time and holds up payment.

One thing you should try in build into your business plan is something called "working capital" enough money to pay the rest of the crew and yourself before you get paid from your client. I know it's hard to put extra money aside for this (the temptation is to buy more gear when you have a little extra money) but believe me you'll sleep better nights and you won't have to try and change how most major corporations pay vendors.

Baltimore Shooter

01-27-2004, 01:58 PM

Dhart makes a great point. I wish I thought of that when I started 10 yrs ago. Those who are considering full time freelancing should definately do this before they start.

I'd love to be able to get a working capital loan (banks call it a "line of credit"), however, it's a bit too late for me. You see my credit has gone to **** because I couldn't pay my bills on time. I couldn't pay my bills on time because I couldn't get paid on time. I couldn't get paid on time because I had to wait 60-90 days to get paid, because too many people just accepted this as a policy. So it just became a never ending cycle.

Now I do things differently. I don't "trust people" like I used to. Now I refuse to work for people who pay more than 30 days or first timers who won't pay at the end of the shoot. Since I did this, my credit is getting better, albeit, too damn slowly for my needs. So now, I just have to hang in there until my credit improves. Hope that helps.
Warren

Photographer

01-27-2004, 04:22 PM

Baltimore: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the reasons for getting gear insurance to protect yourself incase something happens to your gear while on a shoot? Also isn't liability included in the insurance package? Sounds like your making someone else responsible but still paying for the insurance. Aren't we all about savbing money?

Baltimore Shooter

01-27-2004, 04:49 PM

Yes, I am covered. But in these sue happy days that we're in, this is called CYA. Have you ever had to rent gear before? Even though the rental houses have equipment and liability insurance, they require that you do also. Why? Because they're covering their a$$es too. Insurance isn't cheap, and it's not as sexy as that new camera accessory, but when you need it, you're damn glad you have it. One more level of protection.

If you do any work with the Federal Government, they want you to be insured even though they're insured too. I guess it's kind of like wearing a condom after you've had a vasectomy (not that I've had one).
Warren

Nino

01-27-2004, 10:09 PM

Well... I hate to sound like a broken record, but I wrote:
Cash flow is the first thing they teach you in business school. Negative cash flow is the number one reason of small business failure. If you know that revenue will not be coming in for 90 days, then have 90 days of $$$ reserve to cover all your expenses. Once the checks start coming, what’s the difference if they are 60 or 90 days old, as long as they keep-on coming. Not very difficult. The important thing is knowing that you will get paid Then Baltimore Shooter wrote:
I'd love to be able to get a working capital loan (banks call it a "line of credit"), however, it's a bit too late for me. You see my credit has gone to **** because I couldn't pay my bills on time. I couldn't pay my bills on time because I couldn't get paid on time. I couldn't get paid on time because I had to wait 60-90 days to get paid, because too many people just accepted this as a policy. So it just became a never ending cycle.
And before that he wrote:
As for Nino's "No retailer on earth makes 200% profit on any item". I guess you've never bought Nikes or Tommy Hilfiger or Calvin Klines. These clothes are made in India for about $2 and, in the case w/ Nikes sold for about $175 a pair. Now I'm no mathematician, but that's waaay more than 200%. I'm sure homebuilders are making a sh..load of profit on the cardboard box of a house their building these days. Florists get 300% profit margin. I know because I dated a girl who's a florist.
Not to be critical Baltimore, but your accumulated knowledge of business easly fits into the plastic box of a Betacam tape. but let's not argue with each other, first time mistakes are a form of education, the second time is a trend and stupidity. Let's use our mistakes to help other.

For all of you with the desire of becoming a freelance, this is the best advise you'll ever get. If you have any ambition of making it in this business, or in any business. Before wasting your time about how you are going to buy equipment or how to get clients, take some business courses, every HS adult education have many available. You'll learn how a good business plan will help you manage your cash flow so you will not find yourself in the same situation as Baltimore did and avoid the number one reason for small business failures. You'll see our business with an entirely different point of view.

Douglas

01-28-2004, 12:12 AM

A lot of this has already been said, but I'll throw in my 2 bits.

First of all, Nino, I agree with you 100%. The greedy people that overcharge for tape stock have ruined it for the rest of us that would like to charge a normal retail markup. I mean $15.00-$20.00 is all we should be charinging for a $10 item. Let's give a big thanks to our fellow shooters that have screwed that up. Now we've got clients FedExing us tapes or bringing some strange uknown brand with them.

Baltimore, if you think Nike builds, ships, advertises, and sells a $170 pair of shoes for $2.00, I'd like to see your documentation. That's just stupid. Besides, you can't even buy a pair of shoes from Nike. You buy from a retailer, such as Foot Locker that buys that pair of $170 shoes from Nike for maybe $100. Even that would be a pretty rare retail markup. Most markups are not anywhere near that high. Grocery stores only markup items a few percent above their wholesale cost. I can assure you that if get new tires on your car, the store did not buy them from Goodyear for 1/4 of what they charge you. A 300%-400% markup for tape stock, equipment rentals, or anything else is outragous. I don't blame clients for bringing their own tape.

Second, in all of my 20 years in this business I've never expected clients to pay within 30 days and it doesn't bother me at all if they are slow -- unless I fear that they might NEVER pay at all -- then I get very nervous. As long as I know the money is coming, I don't care if it takes 90 days. It's like money in the bank. Have you seen what interest rate your money is earning at the bank? What difference does it make to me if the money arrives today or a few weeks from now? On a $1500 bill you're only talking about $2-$3 of interest during a month! That's peanuts compared to pissing off an otherwise good client.

I even trust most first-time out of town clients to pay ontime -- and 99% of them do. No contracts, no cash upfront, no payment before release of tapes. Have a little trust in your fellow man. Most people are not out to screw you over. I'll get a few people every year that require a lot of phone calling to get the money out of them, but I'll bet everyone does no matter how many hoops you make a client jump through. And the more hoops you have clients jump through -- the fewer clients you'll have that will want to jump through them. If you think it's only deadbeat clients that won't sign a contract or be willing to pay upfront -- you are wrong. Even the very best clients don't want to be treated like deadbeats, and all things being equal, will go elsewhere. Imagine if you had a retail store and you frisked everyone when they left. Sure, you'd have no shoplifters, but honest customers won't put up with it. I know that's not a real good analogy, but it kinda fits.

Do I ever get stiffed? Yes. I've got several thousand dollars in receivables that will probably never get collected. That bothers me if I think about it very much, but in the overall scheme of things, that's just a cost of doing business. I work 170-190 days a year. Would I rather put more hurdles in front of my clients and work only 125 days? Nope. The bottom line is much larger if I work more days -- even if I don't get paid for a few of them. That's life.

The busier a retail store becomes, the more they'll lose to shoplifters and employee theft. But ultimately the overall bottom line is still better with a busier store.

Besides, I'd say my biggest non-paying customers are previous good clients that have gone bad. How do you protect youself from that? My biggest unpaid invoices are from clients that I didn't a problem with until they stopped paying.

I look at it this way. If I called an audio tech, prompter operator, or gaffer and they demanded that I pay upfront or whatever -- I'd look elsewhere because I wouldn't like that attitude and being treated like a deadbeat. To me, it says something about the person demanding the money. If that's their terms, I'll call someone else. Not because I don't want to pay, or can't pay, but because I don't like being treated that way. Plus a part of me thinks, "so, they have trouble collecting". I wonder why that is? Do they suck? Like most people I'm happy to pay for a job well done, and less likely to want to pay someone that sucked. What does that say for the person that's scared they won't get paid?

For the record, I don't even wait 30 days to PAY people that work for me. I cut checks at least twice a month, and any invoices on my desk when I cut checks get paid right then. If I'm cutting checks on a Friday and I got someone's invoice for a job on Thursday -- it gets paid right then. Why make people wait? I've got to pay everyone I hire whether or not my client EVER pays me, so why wait? I do the same thing with talent that I hire. They know they'll get a check the day they finish the shoot. You know, people have a much better attitude while they're working, and are much more likely to work you into thier schedule, when they know they'll have no problem getting paid. It's just good business.

If you've got a decent cash-flow with several weeks/month's pad sitting in the bank, you can sure sleep easier at night.

Here's something I do sometimes that I learned from one of my vendors many years ago. Offer a prompt-pay discount. Let's say your normal day-rate is $1400 but you agree to do a job for $1300. Make the invoice for $1400, but note that a $100 discount will be offered if the check arrives in 30 days. Now you are offering an incentive to pay on time instead of a penalty if they don't. That's a big difference. Also, if you do have trouble collecting, now you are going after them for $1400 instead of $1300.

I hope that helps someone.

ransom

01-28-2004, 09:38 AM

Long thread here with good points of view but some basic information is missing which might clear up a question or two of mine.

To Baltimore Shooter,

What kind of freelance work are you doing? The type of client may explain your way of doing business. I don't have clients sign pre-shoot agreements. Not having an agreement hasn't hurt me. Your contract is interesting to read and I agree with you about doing what you can to shift some of the liability to their shoulders if something goes wrong. You're right. You may have insurance to cover the same problems but why should you be the one forced to put in a claim. We all know putting in a claim leads to higher premiums.

Nino speaks with experience. The best thing I ever did BY ACCIDENT was take some business courses in college. I didn't think much of it at the time but that knowledge has certainly paid off. Things I take for granted and consider obvious while running a business seem to be overlooked by a lot of people who first start freelancing.

Douglas,

I'm happy you like to pay people right away. It's a good attitude and gains respect from those who work for you. I choose between two sound techs for gigs. We've all worked together for the last fifteen years so we know and trust each other. Lately they are treating me much nicer. Times are tough for audio people. Fewer jobs mean they value me and the jobs I bring them. I could take advantage of that. Force them to wait more than thirty days for their pay, even if I haven't gotten payment from the client. I don't. My deal with them is a paycheck in thirty days no matter what. THAT breeds loyalty.

It's been said before. CASH FLOW! It's the hardest concept for new freelancers to learn. Not only in how they get paid but how the companies and clients who pay them work. Understand cash flow and you'll have a better understanding how the big companies make money and stay in business.

That's our goal isn't it? To stay in business?

And lastly, I charge $25 per tape. That's not gouging anyone. If they want to save a buck or two they can supply their own. If I supply it there's nothing wrong with making a few bucks for supplying tape stock.

Nino

01-28-2004, 10:34 AM

I almost forgot about this one.

Baltimore Shooter wrote:
Actually, I'm on the low end of tape charges, as LensSmith said, some people, not just in Nicaragua, but in DC, Phila, and NYC are charging $40-$50, so I'd say $30 is a fair rate. Echoing his statements about clients providing tapes instead of myself. I've also been promised they'd send tapes back "as soon as I get back", only to never receive the tapes or months later if I'm lucky. Please Baltimore, don’t compare John (Lensmith) to yourself or to those other ones in DC, Phil and NYC who charge outrageous prices for tapes. For John getting tapes in Nicaragua is labor intense and costly. Knowingly or unknowingly John uses business criteria to charges his clients, that is to add all your costs (labor included) then tack on a customary profit. All you and I, and those other guys in DC, Phila and NYC have to do is to hit a few keys on our computer and two days later the tapes are at our front door. I hardly call that labor intense. Believe or not there are complex formulas used in business to arrive at customary, reasonable and competitive profit margins, doing what the next guy does are not one of them. Your (and those other guys) kind of thinking is what in business school we referred to as “The Business Prevention Department”

Lensmith

01-28-2004, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Nino:
Knowingly or unknowingly John uses business criteria to charges his clients, that is to add all your costs (labor included) then tack on a customary profit. What do you mean "knowingly or unknowingly" ?

You doubt my business savvy? ;o)

dinosaur

01-28-2004, 04:15 PM

Out of 150+ days worked a year I will present a deal memo contract on one or two jobs a year. I've only been burned for nonpayment less than 5 times in the last fifteen years. I will only present a deal memo contract to new clients who call without any references whatsoever. You know the ones that call you from your listing in the state film guide. They're the ones who usually want a bargain anyway, so I want to spell the costs & terms out for them. Even so, I rarely withold tapes or demand payment on location because I warn them about my ownership of copyright prior to payment in full.

Usually, most of my new clients come to me recommended by another well established client. Part of this business is gaining a sense for whom to trust. Which for me, since I deal with about 99% large brand name clients, means most of the time bookings are accepted verbally without a contract with no problems.

Also, I make it very clear prior to the shoot that if the client shows up without tape stock they will be billed a reasonable price for tapes, but not my wholesale cost. Except for the networks, I don't accept offers for replacement for stock later and I also verbally specify that we will accept only Sony or Fuji stock.

I think John is certainly justified in charging more by the import costs and effort needed to customs broker his tapes. Meanwhile, stateside, charging a client $30-40 per tape that costs us $9.48 each (http://www.taperesources-store.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=BM30-S&dept=24) is outrageous. If I were a producer and saw $40. per tape on a bill, I'd be pretty PO'ed.

Hiding Under Here

01-29-2004, 12:02 AM

So let me get this straight. Baltimore Shooter won't work for NBC, a shop that pays on an eight hour day at a union wage, that contributes to your FLEX plan, that rents your gear a la carte at an average cost of about $700/Day and all because they don't pay in 30 days? You have GOT to be ****ting me.

Hell, I don't even get around to BILLING my clients for 30 days. And i don't pay attention how long it takes for them to pay me -- unless it takes too long in which case I crank up the receivables end of the business and start to recover my money.

The beauty of working for the networks is that you get to work on good stories, you get some respect and you don't have to negotiate every time out because the rates are standardized. I can't stand hog haggling with producers about my rates; what I'll do for 8 hours, how about 10? What's my overtime rate? Will I do half days? Damn, the network calls you and you know the score. Now you can focus on the job. If they take 60 days to pay, I could care less. Why? Because I have a revolving system where I always have a certain amount of money outstanding and what comes in is what I need to live on and what stays out in receivables makes me feel secure because its not in yet. I really don't care how many days each invoice has been sitting because 99.9% of them come home in good time. It's the non-network people I fret over. They're the ones at higher risk of NOT paying the bills.

So, if that makes me a 5000 pound elephant tied to a tree I guess I am one. But I think it means something else.

Hey, it's busy up here. Hope all is well in freelance land for the rest of you guys. There's nothing I hate more than accounting. Nothing.

Gravity's Heavy

02-06-2004, 01:30 AM

I like what Baltimore said about sticking together. But Baltimore I don't think that Dino wanted an opinion he just wanted to share his pain.

Tapes- When I was working in Sears retail management; the rule of thumb to make a 40% profit on an item was to add:
cost + sales labor + transportation + storage x 2, then take 40% of that and add it to the TOTAL cost.

if the total cost is 10.00 then you would sell for 18.00.

That meant if they had a "40% off sale" then the discount would be 7.20 dollars or sell the item for 10.80

that way they did not loose money on a sale item.

SELL FOR WHAT YOU WANT. Around here the price is usually 25.00 but if you shoot 5 tapes then they discount it a bit.

Either way you can't shoot with out bullets.

If they want to ship tapes back I tell them I will settle for 16.00 each and they will save money on the shipping.

Almost Last, people will always take out their frustration on the person that can't really harm their position in life instead of the person that is jabbing the thorn in their side.

I would find it really helpful to see the contract/form from Dinosaur. If he is willing to share it. I know that lawyers cost money and he may not be willing to share this investment.

As far as cash flow - I pay almost everybody at the end of the day. Less things to remember and less ammunition for others to use on me and lastly, that is the way I would want others to do unto me.

FOCUZ

02-06-2004, 10:51 AM

I've been reading this post for a few days now and taking everyones statement under consideration.

To add my two cents, we live in a competitive world. Competition is what this country is founded on. I am going to charge what is profitable to me. Sometimes it is more sometimes it is less. If a client is sending me 50 shoots a year and wants 20% off, I'll do it. If a client brings in 2 shoots a year I'm going to charge them more. Of course if it is a PBS or independent doc I'll throw in things for free.

I am not going to risk my business because someone wants me to stick with them so THEY can make more money.

I'll stick together with others photogs during a stake out or press conference, but when it comes to money I'll do what I want.

If Warren/Baltimore Shooter wants to stick together he can start by not coming up to my clients while I'm working with them and passing his card. Yeah that's right while I was on a shoot in Baltimore he came up and handed the producer his card. Classy move Warren.

Enough said.

Lensmith

02-06-2004, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by FOCUZ:
If Warren/Baltimore Shooter wants to stick together he can start by not coming up to my clients while I'm working with them and passing his card. Yeah that's right while I was on a shoot in Baltimore he came up and handed the producer his card. Classy move Warren.

Enough said. OOOHHHH...interesting insight into a business tactic which would piss me off...if it's true ;o)

dinosaur

02-06-2004, 01:32 PM

While I would like to post my "deal memo" here for all to see, it is something that me and my attorney put some considerable thought into at some cost to me. A generic deal memo is not a document that one should cut and paste off the internet and use for your own purposes. There is also a liability factor in doing that. You can get some rough ideas by looking at some Hollywood based deal memos by just doing a google search.

Sometimes a producer will even present you with their own "deal memo" (Fox sometimes does) to protect their ownership, liability, confidentiality and exclusivity. It is up to you to be knowledgeable enough to know what you need to change or strike before you sign it.

No contract, no matter how complete, will prevent someone from ripping you off if they are hell bent on doing so. It just gives you better options if it is financially worth persuing a deadbeat client. Most of the time if the debt is less than $3-4000.00 it will cost you more in legal fees than its worth to recover.

I will say this again, it is a piece of paper that I very rarely use, or for that matter rarely need to use. I do my homework about new clients and sometimes you still get burned. Management of cash flow is a much better option.

-- as far as an outsider handing out cards to my clients on my location goes, I've always thought that was a very big no no. I'd be really ticked off too. You can bet that your client will also get a follow up phone call from someone who does that kind of thing. I've had it done to me and I know how it feels. I'd consider that very unprofessional. Nine times out of ten my clients will say "do you know this clown?". Marketing and beating the bushes for clients is one thing, that move, in my mind, crosses the line.

Baltimore Shooter

02-06-2004, 05:51 PM

First of all Focuz, I don't remember doing that. You'll have to PM or email me and remind me with specifics of the situation.

Second of all, if you've been int his business for a while, you'd know that we know just about everyone, menaing that we really have the same contact names and such. Same as we have the same conatcts as the crewing agencies. Are you saying that if we're at the Film Biz Happy Hour and I see you talking to potentail client #1, that I should not talk to them because you got there first, so I should go talk to potential client #2?

Third of all, unless you have an exclusive contract with a client, they're free to hire whom ever they choose.

Forth, I've held off on handing out my card sometimes, only to find out later that the crew that the client hired went out of business or got out of the business, or had a camera that was being repaired or was stolen or was all booked up, or maybe the client just didn't like that crew. If other people feel that it's okay to undercut me or take a referal fee for passing work to me, them I have the right to hand out my card to whom ever I choose.

Focuz, I guess if you're in the Maryland Production Guide as I am, then you're "handing out your card to people i'm working with" too.
Warren

Baltimore Shooter

02-06-2004, 06:34 PM

By the way Focuz, if you're going to be bold enough to chastize someone on a message board, at least be man enough to list your website address or email address. You provide no info about yourself or a way someone contact you. Why don't you even post your name at the bottom of your post or did your mother name you Focuz?

I bet you're one of those shooters who try to undercut other crews who stand firm on their rates or ask your audio techs to work for less because you gave your client a cut rate deal. Let me guess your motto:
"I'll do it for less, pay me anything, just help me make my next bill".

Come on Focuz, be a man and post your name don't hide behind a bullsh** name.
Warren
Warren

Gravity's Heavy

02-06-2004, 08:11 PM

Not pointing a finger because as a good journalist you need to get all the facts , but who ever did the sales job for the gig is the person that I am representing that day. The phrase I use when the client or subject on a shoot has asked for my card or number is "Just tell INSERT NAME to assign me to your next shoot and I will be glad to take care of you" and I always try to have one of their cards to hand out for them. That phrase puts the original person back in the driver's seat and in control. A lot of producers are always looking for a weakness and a way to save a nickel.

If it is one of the major news networks and I am asked about shooting a local commercial that is different because they don't want any part of that so I might talk to them about it for a second but it usually goes nowhere and is more about being polite. But I did slip up recently on a CMT shoot when I thought I was working for their network and a famous singer's brother asked for my card in front of the producer and he didn't seem to care. At the end of the day everybody was jumping in cars to make a flight I was handed the producer's card to bill and found out that these guys were a production company themselves and they were creating a program for CMT.

The next day I called and explained that I had my sales hat on when I shouldn't have and if they call I will defer to the producer's company. He didn't seem as upset as I was but man, I hate breaking my own rules!

I feel that if someone else has arranged and paid for me to be in proximity of a person with a check book then it is their company that I am repping! It is like selling your own burgers out the side door of McDonald's while on the clock.

Baltimore Shooter

02-09-2004, 07:53 PM

So how bout it Focuz? How bout telling me and everyone else here who you are. After all if you're going to accuse me of something, I have the right to face my accuser.
Warren

Icarus112277

02-10-2004, 07:07 AM

Personally if someone asks for my card I give it to them. If I'm hired by a third party I don't pass it out unsolicited, but if I am asked it seems silly to me to refuse. Most third parties (that I know of anyways) are tacking an extra 50 or 100 on your rate anyways. Last time this happened (for NFL Films) I bumped my rate up 50 and it was still less than the third party was billing for me. They were dumping the service anyways, so whats the difference?

FOCUZ

02-12-2004, 05:27 PM

That is what is great about the internet. I don't have to reveal myself. If you want to call me a p#@ssy fine, I could care less.

As for your comments, you have every right to call any client you choose.

I just think it is of poor taste to walk up to a three man crew in downtown B-more and hand your card to the producer. If you want to hand your card to the crew that is a different story. I hire many cameramen and many cameramen hire me.

This is a competive business and as I said earlier I am going to run my business the way I want to.

If you don't like it, I don't care.

Baltimore Shooter

02-12-2004, 06:35 PM

Well Focuz, I still don't remember the situation in question because you didn't give enough detail about what actually happened.

Focuz, I was just going through some of your other posts, and this one really caught my eye - http://b-roll.net/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004972;p=1

Originally posted by Focuz:
When the Sniper hit on a Saturday night in Virginia I had just got back from my College Homecoming. Let just say I was not in good shape. Inside Edition calls and tells me to pick up the reporter and get to the scene ASAP. I called my partner and it turns out he is just as hammered as I am. To make a long story short we go to pick up the reporter and we both try to act as sober as we can. The reporter gets into the car and says "I don't know about you guys, but I'm hammered. Lets just say it was an interesting 2 hour drive.So let me get this straight...you get a call and while you and your audio guy are DRUNK, you DRIVE to pick up the producer "trying to act sober" and go to the shoot. Now as you say, the reporter was drunk, but the reporter wasn't the one driving and they are your boss. It doesn't matter if the boss is drunk or not. You and your partner however, are another matter.

What could you have done instead? How bout calling another someone else to shoot with your gear (I don't mean me) and another person to fill in for the audio tech? Driving the client around while drunk and being drunk on the job isn't what I'd call very professional. You're lucky you didn't kill or injure the producer during your drunk driving, imagine how that could effect your business. Do you call this good client relations? If so, it's a good thing I handed out my card to the producer maybe I should have done it more often. I wonder how many times I've seen you around, were you drunk then too? Maybe you need to attend an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. Are you smoking crack too? Focuz, you're a pathetic (and druink) loser who doesn't deserve clients!
Warren

Hiding Under Here

02-13-2004, 10:07 AM

Couldn't you guys just get a hotel room and work this out? I'll be the first to admit that this board has been sleeping lately. It could use some higher octane entertainment. But personal grudge matches really aren't the type of things that fly here. Take this stuff somewhere else. Please.

FOCUZ

02-13-2004, 01:15 PM

Okay Warren, this was a very particular situation. I spent an hour trying to find someone to work, but it was Saturday night and no one was around.

I went to work because that is what I do. If a shoot comes in I take it. Where do come off with your self rightoues attitude. Who appointed you the almighty judge.

The client didn't care if I had been drinking, they didn't care if I couldn't find someone else, they wanted a crew at the scene asap. Am I going to say it was the smartest thing I've ever done, NO, it was probably the dumbest thing I've ever done. It was a one time thing. That client hired me everyday for the entire month, I had to take care of them.

Concerning the rest of your comments, as I said earlier, I could care less what you think of me. I have yet to make an unprofessional comment to you, but I guess that is just the type of person you are.

Replying to thomas too, I agree with him. Lets bag this grudge match.

Good luck in your future business and if I see you on the street I'll come up and introduce myself. I'll probably laugh about it.

Hiding Under Here

02-13-2004, 01:27 PM

Now that's a great response.

It seems as though there is a new crop of freelancers who have discovered this board. There are about two dozen of us regulars who used to keep things pretty busy here. The activity would ebb and flow but when a volatile subject came up we'd jump on it like dogs on meat.

After a while, most of the things that could get hashed out in this type of venue got dealt with. Except for the tremendous donnybrooks over mini-DV cameras with good ole Mike, the board has been fallow for a while.

It's nice to see new names posting and new subjects get discussed. I think the business card discussion was very legit. I also thik the complaint about 30 days was legit but that Baltimore Shooter is making assessments about the nature of this business that will harm his efforts to succeed more than they will help.

I'd like to see Ivan contribute something about the new SONY disc cameras. I think they are the 530s. Those are very interesting developments that will definitely have an impact on our business.

The bottom line with the freelance board is that we can't really get into what they do over at the local shooters boards. What are we going to do...have a thread about what we did today? I enjoy reading the one over at the local board but here that would seem kind of trite and competitive. Not to mention dangerous due to the nature of the stories we shoot.

Anyway...nice to see new people. Keep stoking the fires. Thanks for the respect on the personal stuff. The decent, honest response tells me all I need to know about you Focuz: we'd understand each other in the field and probably get along fine.