cameras [Archive] - b-roll.net FORUM

Shaky & Blue

12-05-2003, 08:13 PM

Each format has its advantages and drawbacks. For the price, I think you get more out of the DVCPro. You can't argue that the (25Mbps) DVCPro cameras are as rugged or quite as high quality as the SX, but you can have more of them on the street doing an adequate job for less money. Unfortunately, the viewers can't really tell the difference.

Regarding the editing gear, it depends on what you're using. The SX native nonlinear systems had some really serious problems when I used them and were a nightmare to use. I don't know if Sony has fixed them, but that junk my station bought sucked royally. Its only saving grace was being able to load footage at 4x normal speed.

Likewise, the SX laptops were a pain in the ass. The laptop is actually two decks bolted together with a computer-type connection in the middle. When you put it in a live truck the vibration over time causes the connection to fail, leading to all kinds of bizarre behavior from the system. You could sometimes grab the thing by the sides and shove it together, but often it needed attention from an engineer before it worked properly again. Also, even though they're supposed to be thoroughly backward compatible, those laptops get confused when you try to edit from analog tapes.

The DVCPro laptops, in contrast, are really quite good. They're all one piece and have some nifty features on them that the deck to deck systems don't have. They're also better about NOT slipping than the deck to deck systems, and they're a little more tolerant of time code problems.

The deck to deck systems had lots of problems early on, but Panasonic worked a lot of the bugs out with subsequent software upgrades. Still, if you have tapes with broken timecode, you will play hell editing with them. I haven't used Panasonic's nonlinear system.

Now, if you want the same or higher quality in the cameras than SX, but still want DVCPro, take a look at DVCPro50. It costs a lot more than the 25Mbps DVCPro, but the increase in picture quality may be worth it. Many stations that claim to be broadcasting their news in high definition are actually using standard def DVCPro50 cameras to shoot in 16x9, then upconvert to HD for the actual broadcast.

On the issue of the tape size, I had no more problems with DVCPro than I did with SX. The error correction has gotten so good now that the increased risk of dropouts that comes with a smaller tape is offset by the error correction. The result is that you either have a good picture, or you have NO picture. The tape size is simply no longer an issue because the technology caught up with the problem.

Finally, one thing I actually like about the DVCPro cameras compared to the SX gear is the level of accessibility to camera settings in the menu. DVCPro cameras handle almost everything in the software. As a result, you can customize almost everything in the menus. The menu system can be a little daunting when you get into it just because of its size and depth, but when I went from DVCPro to SX I missed being able to customize the camera to the way I shoot instead of being forced to alter my shooting to the way Sony thought I should use the camera. There's a lot to be said for putting the options in your hands instead of trying to dictate them to you.

cameragod

12-05-2003, 11:04 PM

Why not go XDCAM? Inexpensive, tough and the way the world will go soon.

Gil

12-06-2003, 01:20 AM

For most of local news, and for UNIVISION, DVCPRO rules.

DC is a DVCPRO town, all the locals (WRC, WTTG, WJLA, WUSA) use it. We've all tried the SX stuff, hated it. DVC laptop editors are rugged, fast and easy to use. The cameras AJ-610's and 810's have been reliable, great lowlight sensitiivity and reasonable battery consumption.

Drawbacks? Picture tends to be a little washed out and the color rendition leans toward neutral

There's other stuff, but on the whole, a good system for local news

12-06-2003, 01:38 AM

I would have to go with DVC Pro.
Most Shops have DVC Cams. And if you do alot
of travling to other affiliates i would lean
to what they are using. But we all have are opinions. Like the previous statement above the viewer cant tell what is what. That might lead you to get more for your money. Pannasonic also 4x digitizes as well. Do your research there are alot of PRos and Cons about each....

imported_blank

12-06-2003, 01:51 AM

Goin' with cameragod's XDcam advise probably is the best answer although I would expect problems and design flaws with any new format.

"""The tape size is simply no longer an issue because the technology caught up with the problem."""
Stop it Shaky & Blue. You are cracking me up....

To the original poster, in the past, many discusions at this forum, many discussions on the horrific "small tape problems". ""One"" of the most serious problems is "DECK TO DECK COMPATIBILITY" This is caused by the extremely narrow track pitch and slow tape speed. If your cameras(s) or decks(s) are just slightly misaligned - you "WILL" experience compatibility problems. Every six months or so, a poster will come on here moaning about this... FWY this problem is almost non existent with the 1/2 inch beta tape formats. The dinky 6mm format also tends to be more sensitive to moisture/humidity related problems. A while back, there was a very good article about this in one of the trade mags. The mag did a survey. The mag also interviewed some engineer from a popular reality based program. He said they had "minimal" problems with 1/2 inch but their 6mm gear continually kept breaking down (along with tape problems) making them almost totally useless. (note - this was under extreme conditions)

As to the editing problems --- not just SX but both SX and DVCpro experience similar slippage and other related problems. Sony also fixed a lot of the bugs. Again, do a search on this board and you will learn the truth about both formats having similar editing flaws. (note tdelarm's post in contrast with shaky's post) The editing [dvcpro] gear simply sucked I know for a fact

Many discussions on this board in the past and from my finding - around 90 to 95 percent of the shooters on this board (that used both formats) prefer the Betacam SX format.

If you do decide to go with SX, Sony will give you a written guarantee on parts and support availability. Just this year Sony did that with the NFL. Don't hold me to this but I believe they gave the NFL this guarantee -- until the year 2102.

PS,
Some people on this board will claim that viewers also can't tell the difference between DIGI-BETA and a PD150, if you want a good chuckle - do a search on that too - it is written... :D

One more thing,
If your station is thinking of "upconverting" to HD - stay away from any 4:1:1 format such as DVCpro25 or DVcam. Like Shaky said, many shops that upconvert to HDTV use 4:2:2 SD formats. However it's not all DVCpro-50, for instance the majors in Seattle up-convert using BETACAM SX...

Shaky & Blue

12-06-2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Ivan:
Stop it Shaky & Blue. You are cracking me up.... I may be cracking you up; but considering that between the two of us I'm the one who has a decent amount of experience working with both formats, I think I'll go with what my experience tells me. What my experience tells me is that the size of the DVCPro tapes doesn't lead to the horrors lamented by the people who have completely given themselves over to a sort of religious faith in Sony.

Yes, both formats have problems. Yes, both formats have advantages. To tie yourself to one or the other just because you're a "Sony Guy" is irrational. It smacks of those stupid Mac/PC debates.

When all the problems and advantages are averaged out, the two formats pretty much stand on equal footing. To choose which you want, you have to look at individual problems and features and pit them against your own needs. As a shooter, I want the best picture quality; but am I willing to give up some of the user-friendliness of the Panasonic gear to get it? A manager will want gear that will stay in service longer and require less maintenance; but in the long run, will lower maintenance costs justify higher spending initially? You have to also consider how your shop works. If you're almost always working out of live trucks, one format's portable editing system will be better; but for editing in house, it may not matter so much.

Every format has issues, and you yourself hinted at the solution to the big tape size problem you brought up. The person doing the purchasing needs to look at ALL the factors and consider how they weight against each other without some irrational sentimental attachment to one company or another.

Photog Cowboi

12-06-2003, 11:55 PM

Someone just give me a DVCam Camera. The PBS station I was at in NM used only DVCam. The one DVCPro cam we had died a horrible death (some knucklehead dropped it) and the DVEdit system we had with the DVCPro cam had issues!

Gil

12-07-2003, 12:37 AM

Formats. When you really think about it, the majority of the tape formats and the equipement we use come from two sources: Sony and Panasonic. All of our arguements about what to use boil down to whatever these folks put out.

What's the final tally on formats from Sony? Five?
(DVCAM, BETA, SX, HDCAM, DigiBETA, more on the way?) Anyway, it's not like it's a competive industry putting out a really whiz bang product. AMPEX RIP; RCA,legendary junk; Bosch/Phillips/Fernseh/whatever, gave up the ghost years ago; so it's Panasonic and Sony with the goods.

Disc based TV? It'll be these two fighting it out for equal amounts of business.

Some will say, what about Iki? Or Hitachi? They're okay, but they'll simply mate whatever the big two produce onto their units.

But we'll still sit here and split hairs about the presets on each makers camera, or whether the detail on the 400A still sets the standard, or, even, if the skin tone and setup was superior on the HLV-55 as opposed to a 600 (yes, a potential client went nuts and spent a week trying to decide which camera and crew to hire... gimme a break).

The big two will put stuff out, we'll choose our sides and argue til we're blue in the face.

So there!

12-07-2003, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by JumpCut: Purely from a cameramans point of view. SX beats DVC PRO hands down. SX tapes like the old beta tapes will hold up to a lot of punishment. IMO DV tapes are very fragile. Originally posted by tdelarm : for my money, the SX is a higher quality product Originally posted by Shaky & Blue:
You can't argue that the (25Mbps) DVCPro cameras are as rugged or quite as high quality as the SXAll true. At my old place of employment we shot with dvcpro cams. Not long after the initial purchase a few dvcpro cams had their heads completely disappear. Other cams had their tape path completely go out of alignment. The strength of the small heads in dvcpro cams is extremely low. Any little spec of dust will throw it off. Most guys would often complain about the flimsy tapes and the crap decks.

At the linear edit bays I would find myself running out of time The machines some times would back-up and then just stop or they would give me some kind of error. I prefer SX much, much more. The video is crisper & the audio is more manageable. The over all robustness of SX is tenfold higher. In comparison dvc is just a toy.

My last employer had 22 dvc cameras in service. At my current locale we only have 16 sx cams but I'd rather have less cams as long as they actually stay in out on the streets in service instead of sitting at the engineer's bench. You get what you pay for.

cameragod

12-07-2003, 06:13 AM

Look call the Sony rep tell him your station wants to upgrade cameras and could you test-drive a shiny new XDCAM camera. Run that puppy through a few hoops and I bet you wont want to give it back. Ivan may be right and there may be a few teething probs with the first generation of XDCAM, I still remember the nightmares we had with the first DVC pro cameras, but I think XDCAM is going to be so good the first stations to get into it are going to gain an immediate market advantage.

Tippster

12-08-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Gil:
For most of local news, and for UNIVISION, DVCPRO rules.

DC is a DVCPRO town, all the locals (WRC, WTTG, WJLA, WUSA) use it. We've all tried the SX stuff, hated it. DVC laptop editors are rugged, fast and easy to use. The cameras AJ-610's and 810's have been reliable, great lowlight sensitiivity and reasonable battery consumption.

Drawbacks? Picture tends to be a little washed out and the color rendition leans toward neutral

There's other stuff, but on the whole, a good system for local news Gil,

Glad you finally joined the party. How's the Buell?

On topic, I have yet to have any durability issues w/my 610 (DVCPro - Cowboi.) I love the look of the video, I guess we have it dialed in well, and the fact that I can carry 6 hours of tape in my pants pocket doesn't suck, either. I have yet to have one client complain about the format, and most have no idea what we shoot on, nor do they care (since we feed the material to them.) If a client needs the camera tape we shoot on 400a's - EVERYBODY still has an SP deck floating around. We are considering the XDCam in the near future, since we're about to go server-based in DC and some clients have said they're bailing on SX (i.e. the BEEB. Don't know if that's sour grapes or if it's true.)

If you're going the DVCPro route (and don't have money for the 50Mb set-up) then please: don't cheap out completely and buy the 1/2 inch crap. I believe Panasonic actually stopped producing the 700, but I could be wrong. Get the 610 at the very least.

<help>

12-08-2003, 02:28 PM

I would like to thank all of you for your input (not that I want this topic to close, there are still lots more of you out there.) I guess what I am hearing is that everyone is pretty much split down the middle between these two formats. Maybe a little more info would help. We are using Avid at our station and straight cuts in our trucks. Yes we went non-linear before changing formats, but we do have some DVC equipment ie investigators and production. The reason I started this is because right now 1/3 of our DVC equip. has some sort of problem with it. From the inside it looks like a childs toy. Parts are so small that it takes forever to change out anything, for fear of knocking something else out. We just had to send in a deck that was I believe 4 years old to have all of the caps replaced in it for $1700. Mind you this deck has never seen the outside of our station. Every camera that we have had to work on has to go out to be aligned usually around $1500 (not including parts) These things just look too delicate to handle field work. We also have SX decks, no camera's, they are in our master control. These things are solid as a rock. Being in Phoenix is bad enough but if we need to go to Flagstaff (cold weather) for snow are these things going to hold up? We recently did a cavern opening and it was 99% humidity, betacam didn't even flinch (had a hard time keeping the lens from fogging up but that was it.) To me it just seems like more of you would be having problems with DVC if it was really as bad as what we are experiencing. As far as the cost goes SX really isn't terrible. It is a difference of around 2 cameras. We just want something that will be as reliable as a betacam (We have had ours for about 9 years, and some 2 pieces that have been here a lot longer)and they still take great pics. How long has everyone been using thier formats? What kind of problems have you had? What do your engineers think about them? And please more of what do you think about them, after all you photogs have to use them more than anyone else. Thanks again :D

Tyna

12-08-2003, 03:01 PM

I have been using a Panasonic 900 DVCpro50 for almost a year now. It is currently at Panasonic, being repaired. They lent us a 910. We have two cameras in total, from what I have heard, mine has been a lemon since we bought it. Problems have been overheating, picture flickering, blue screen, vertical and/or horizontal scrolling, nothing abuse-related, just bad design inside. On the flip side, I now have all the upgraded parts in my camera.

Does it hold up in extreme cold.....in short, no. Not like my old DXC537/PVV-1 combination did. Does it hold up in humidity......again, no. For what we do, the format is fine, but I wouldn't want to rely on it for daily news. If I had a purchasing choice, I would go back to BetacamSP, I personally think that it is a more robust and reliable format for the money. Tape stock is also much cheaper, less than $10 CDN for 30min SP compared to $50 CDN for 33min DVCpro tape. (I am not sure where Sony is at for replacement parts for the SP's.) All I really know is, my old SP was rarely in the shop, my DVCpro seems to be in there more often than I'd like. We edit on Leitch servers, so thankfully, I rarely have to worry about tape to tape editing.

Shaky & Blue

12-08-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by <help>:
As far as the cost goes SX really isn't terrible. It is a difference of around 2 cameras. Is that price difference based on the list price of the camera or on the price the manufacturer will give you for a volume purchase? The reason I'm asking is that Panasonic has a history of giving ridiculous discounts on its cameras and decks if you buy a bunch at once. If you buy them one at a time, you pay list; but if you buy ten cameras and ten decks, they'll make you a "package deal," with 20 of each getting you an even bigger discount.

Sony deals also, but my impression is that Panasonic's package deals carry a little more incentive than Sony's, simply because they consider it a priority to get entire stations switched over to Panasonic gear. Before you compare price, you might want to get the sales folks to give you some actual quotes on the volume of gear you would be buying.

Shaky & Blue

12-08-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Tyna:
Tape stock is also much cheaper, less than $10 CDN for 30min SP compared to $50 CDN for 33min DVCpro tape. I think you're getting ripped off. List price for a single 33 minute DVCPro tape is around $18 US, which would put it around $22 Canadian. Many stock houses sell it considerably cheaper, especially if you buy in volume. Lookit:

http://www.high-techproductions.com/panasoniDVCpro33.htm

http://www.tapeandmedia.com/DVCPRO.asp

http://www.horizonduplication.com/master%20tape%20stock.html

Those last two have them between $10-11 US on single tapes, with a discount on 50 or more. I got those links from a quick Google search. Someone else may have an even better source.

Maybe there's no Canadian source that sells them that cheap, but I figure if you're paying that much for tapes now, you'd save money even if you had to pay customs on an order from the US.

Drill

12-08-2003, 05:48 PM

We used to have Beta 300a's here and moved up to 24 Sony DVCam 500s. WE ALL LOVE THEM!!! Yeah...we have a few problems with them...but the cold...and hot weather hasn't affected them yet. This format is awesome going into the Avid as long as you get the 4X deck. But if you want a camera to last 10 years...you might want to wait. I've heard that there's a new stick media camera coming out soon (Panasonic???). I think Sony looks much better than Panasonic...but the days of tape are disappearing fast. What's next??? Tape, DVD, hard drive, memory stick???

Good luck in choosing your new camera.

Drill
KARE-TV

Sportsguy

12-08-2003, 06:32 PM

As far as DVCAM goes, we got the Ikegami HL-DV7AW cameras.

They're solid as a rock, and the pics aren't bad, either.

They've only been with us for about 6 months though, so time will tell in the long run...

focusthis

12-08-2003, 06:57 PM

SX.

What format is most of your filetape on? We've been with Sony since the oxide days. All those tapes pop right in to our SX machines. I've shot with my SX DNW-9WS for five years. It's only needed repair maybe twice (including maintenance). Yeah, I baby my gear, but it's seen more aircraft carrier landings than Bush Jr! We've gone through a couple hurricanes, too, and only fogged the lens.

I'm suspicious of the durability of small tape. You may find differences on the test bench, to the viewer watching on the 19" at home, it won't matter.

Yay for Yellow. :)

12-08-2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by <help>:
The reason I started this is because right now 1/3 of our DVC equip. has some sort of problem with it. From the inside it looks like a childs toy. Parts are so small that it takes forever to change out anything, for fear of knocking something else out. We just had to send in a deck that was I believe 4 years old to have all of the caps replaced in it for $1700. Mind you this deck has never seen the outside of our station. Every camera that we have had to work on has to go out to be aligned usually around $1500 (not including parts) These things just look too delicate to handle field work. We also have SX decks, no camera's, they are in our master control. These things are solid as a rock.

As far as the cost goes SX really isn't terrible. It is a difference of around 2 cameras. We just want something that will be as reliable as a betacamWhat format is the better choice? You just confirmed the answer...

imported_blank

12-08-2003, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Tippster:
I have yet to have one client complain about the format, and most have no idea what we shoot on, nor do they care (since we feed the material to them.) Apparently Reuters clients couldn't care less if you shoot on a digi-beta or a tvr300.

all of the Reuters bureaus are switching to PD-150 gear. There were Reuters shooters using PD-150 cameras covering the wildness.
they want the producers to cut the pieces themselves, for example, so the editors are f*cked.
There's some nastiness involving camera jobs as well
This knock down isn't pointed at you Tipp but as each day passes by - Reuters is losing more credibility. From time to time I will see a Reuters feed on one of the "trusted" news channels and they will show some first response footage (courtesy of Reuters) looking very amateur (even consumer high-8 & svhs) Now I'm all for showing first response amateur video """BUT""" the network will also state that " Reuters" claims 60 people have died, meanwhile all the other nets will "confirm" that only six people have died. Personally, I don't trust any over seas report comin' from a Reuters feed. Personally, lot's of the over seas Reuters feeds look like a three week handycam toting person was responsible for the shoot and STORY INFO.

Again Tipp, this isn't a knock down against you or your abilities. Your good reputation speaks for itself and I'm sure that things in Washington ("""FOR NOW""") aren't handled in the same manner as things in the Balkies may be. I have never seen a Washington Reuters feed as all the nets I watch (including CBC CTV) have their own cameras in DC.

However,
Reuters reputation also speaks for itself and in my opinion, it's not that great and gettin' worse by the day, so yeah - it does seem that Reuters clients simply don't care nor have an idea...about the Format, Cameramen, Editing or Producing. :(

Ask yourself this - with all the ass facing, how long will they care about the quality comin' from Washington??? Come back here in a year when they replace you with a PD150 VJ. Some kid (your replacement) will come on here and state the same claim. I have yet to have one client complain about the format, and most have no idea what we shoot on, nor do they care

Look at the bright side, perhaps you'll buy a betacam and take away the Rueters clients.

I'm getting more clients because of the lack of broadcast quality Betacams here, which is good news for me
Good may come from bad situations. :D :D

Dedline

12-09-2003, 12:57 AM

Best I can say is... WAIT A YEAR. However if you're budget already has new cameras in it for 1st quarter than make the absolute best deal you can since you are buying a semi-dead format (SX or DVCPro).
Sony is going DVDcam. Pana is going RAM stick/card cam. and neither seems to be working on tape formats anymore.
DVCPro is great, sure with some problems, but the advantages outweigh them I think. but again I suspect Pana is putting all their resources into their new RAM camera and nothing else into DVCPro, except DVCPro100 which is an HD format. They have already stopped manufacturing 4x DVCpro decks.We tried to buy another one and barely found one.DVCPRo laptop editors rock.Friggin things worked better than our full decked edit bays.
I thought I read something on this board that SX was also not being manufactured anymore in favor of DVCAM, which is 4:2:2 as SX is, just the tinier tape width.Anyone else hear this?
We're planning on new cameras in another year at least. I'd die for a DVDcam where I wouldn't have to digitize anything to edit non-linear.Just stick the DVD in and go.

imported_blank

12-09-2003, 02:28 AM

With all due respect dedline - but why are you posting this totally unfounded hear -say??? Christ, almost everything you wrote is wrong. No wonder people get confused.

======================
1))) Neither [Panasonic or Sony] seems to be working on tape formats anymore.

WRONG!!!
Both manufactures are still making ""LOTS""" of tape based cameras. In fact Go to Panasonic and see what you can purchase. http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/mnu_cams_ccorders.html

Looks like ALL tape to me. Even if they stop makin' it tomorow - they will support it for years to come, on the other hand - brand new formats that die within a year may not get support...

Sony just recently introduced a brand new tape format. SR HDCAM (beta tape) already adapted by the FOX network.

In addition, the unit integrates Sony's highly reliable half-inch tape transport, which is among the features that have made Sony VTRs favorites of operators and engineers around the world.
Sept. 12, 2003
http://pro.sony.com.hk/pr20030915h.html

======================
2))) I thought I read something on this board that SX was also not being manufactured anymore in favor of DVCAM

WRONG!!!
As of """Today"""", in SD, you can buy """THREE""" Sony 2/3 inch chip """SX betacams""", one of them just this year had major updates and even had the model number updated. In fact, one of the highlights of the "Sony truck tour" is this improved BETACAM SX camera. In fact Sony manufactures "LESS" 2/3 inch ccd models from Digi-Beta, IMX, DVcam or XDcam. ONLY the SX line has THREE different models.

Some New Zealand nets just went SX, The NFL just this year purchased $22 million worth of """BRAND NEW""" SX betacams.

On the other side of the coin, you can buy only """ONE""" Sony 2/3 inch chip tape based DVcam

TAPE
SX=3
Digi=2
DVcam=1
IMX=1

BACK
SP=1
SX=1
DVcam=1
Digi=0
IMX=0
XDcam=0

FYI, from Sony -SR HDcam, HDcam, Digi, IMX, SX are all 1/2 inch beta formats - only DVcam is 6mm

======================
3))) DVCAM, which is 4:2:2 as SX is, just the tinier tape width.

WRONG!!!
DVcam is a 4:11 DV25 format. To see some difference between DVCpro25 and DVcam click here.
http://b-roll.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003761#000000

SX is a 4:2:2 MPEG-2 format. Sony may slowly dicontinue SX in favour of IMX, which also happens to be a 4:2:2 MPEG-2 format which has LESS compression then SX. You can change the SX studio decks to spit out IMX, in fact the IMX "BETA" decks will indeed play and edit off SX tapes. IMX is only an improved version of SX.

======================
We're planning on new cameras in another year at least. I'd die for a DVDcam

You being the "CHIEF" better do some research before the bean counters purchase cause if you ask for DVDcam you get consumer toy cameras. On the other hand if you ask for XDcam then you get the real thing....

semi

12-09-2003, 08:41 AM

You could go around in circles for weeks and weeks on this one. If you have an imminent budget constraint and MUST buy in soon, you are in a tough spot. The Sony XDCam and Panasonic Stick media cam are here now, and will only improve, but neither are entrenched in the market yet.

If you can wait, and I hope you can, then by the time a year has passed you will feel much better about the decision you make because whatever you go with will have had a bit of time to show it's true colors.

It's true that SX is being discontinued, and although Ivan will fight me on this one I KNOW I saw articles to this effect. Even if it isn't being discontinued the format is nearly 10 years old, so why would you want to go that route?

Wait if you can, go XD or Panny stick media if you can't, as aftermarket companies are already supporting both new entries.

Best of luck.

geezer

12-09-2003, 09:37 AM

Another consideration to weigh is what editing system you end up using.
I think SX looks prettier in first generation form but if you go with a non-linear system that is not SX native much of this benefit will be lost as your material goes through conversion products while being digitized.
There are a lot of DV native systems out there and this keeps things cleaner longer.
Panny has made a lot of progress in terms of camera quality since the 700's came out. I still don't see them as being equal to Sony but the difference is not a deal breaker IMHO.
If you are going DVCPRO and are bound and determined to spend a ton of dough; remember that IKE makes a DVCPRO rig.

Gil

12-09-2003, 12:01 PM

Hey Tippster, yes I'm here spewing forth all sorts of invective, lies, and general nonsense...

Leaving cameras aside for a momnent, the bike runs great, join me sometime at the American Thunderbike website. ATC.

Anyway, Reuters is Reuters. Cameras are, well, either Panasonic or Sony. And we'll sit there and argue about these two as if we really have a choice about the gear we use...

More ranting and raving later

BluesDaddy

12-09-2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by JumpCut:
IMO DV tapes are very fragile. I had a DVCPro tape go through the washer AND dryer in my jeans pocket. It stills works perfectly.

Shaky & Blue

12-09-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by BluesDaddy:
I had a DVCPro tape go through the washer AND dryer in my jeans pocket. It stills works perfectly. Impossible. Everybody knows that if you put a DVCPro tape in your pocket it will get lint in it and just disintegrate into little shards and strips of plastic. It would have already been destroyed before it ever reached the washing machine. Besides, DVCPro tapes are so fragile that if you turn one upside down it just explodes into tiny bits. Being turned over and over in a dryer would make it explode, and then those pieces would explode, and then those, so that by the end it would just be vaporized and you wouldn't know there was ever a tape in there at all because all the microscopic particles that were left of it would have sifted out through the lint screen. And it couldn't have worked after being in the washing machine either, because the coating automatically comes off the base of DVCPro tapes in horrible strips whenever any moisture gets nearby. You can't use them in Florida or Texas, you know, because it's just too humid, and the camera will just forcibly eject them, spraying horrible toxic magnetic particles all over the photographer so that he dies a painful and lingering death, not to mention that when it is ejected into the air and turns over the case explodes.

imported_blank

12-09-2003, 08:08 PM

Hi Semi, How is the weather in Edmonton??? BRRRR :D
As I wrote in my FIRST post, I agreed with cameragod (and you) to go for XDcam "BUT" Let's remember that the original poster asked specifically about DVCpro & Beta SX....in fact he/she is again asking for further comments regarding DVCpro and Betacam SX.

"""It's true that SX is being discontinued, and although Ivan will fight me on this one I KNOW I saw articles to this effect. Even if it isn't being discontinued the format is nearly 10 years old, so why would you want to go that route?"""

There is no use fighting with you Semi. I put up evidence (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/webapp/SubCategory?m=0&p=2&sp=11&sm=0&s=&cpos=) - you put up hear say. I showed you that as of today Sony offers more SX models then any other SD models with 2/3 inch chips. You gave me "I heard" hear-say.

Now I am showing you evidence that Sony just this year is offering a brand new version of a SX camera. (it's included in the truck tour.)
http://www.vtpcorp.com/htm/newforproduction.htm
Some of the Newest 2003 Sony Products
New DNW-7 Version 2 Betacam SX Camcorder. New IT Power HAD CCDs (4:3), sensitivity F13 @ 2000 Lux, minimum illumination 0.18 Lux, Vertical Smear Ratio –130dB, 4:2:2 Betacam SX recording and payback, ....

You are giving me hear-say.
It's true that SX is being discontinued, ... Even if it isn't being discontinued.

Please put up some verifiable info, thank you.
That being said:
No doubt Betacam SX is starting to show it's age - absolutely, I agree with you on that. But there is nothing wrong with buying into a format that's nearing it's end - not when the manufacturer will put in writing a 10 year parts and support guarantee.
PS, some people on B-ROLL have been claiming that SX is discontinued, this has been going on since 1998 :D Don't make me dig up the posts. No doubt it will happen one day, but gee how long should a format stay around????

Let's remember, the original poster asked specifically about DVCpro & Beta SX.... I can bring fourth evidence that Sony is giving GUARANTEED PARTS & SUPPORT for many years to come, even if it does get discontinued. (ask the NFL, KABC, NZ nets or thousands of other customers that brought into SX ""this year"".)

Semi,
What I am fighting is ridiculous claims such as SX was also not being manufactured anymore in favor of DVCAM, which is 4:2:2 as SX is, just the tinier tape width.

When in fact Betacam SX may stop being manufactured in favour of IMX. (as you said Semi - it's [SX] getting to be old technology) Remember though, IMX is down compatible with SX. Same tape size, both M-PEG 2 4:2:2 formats. In fact I can bring forth evidence that SONY is slowly intergrading SX into IMX. As I said SX studio decks can easily be adapted to shoot out IMX. As I said IMX decks will play and edit SX material. Even the newer field J-series decks. This is not silly I heard - hear say These are facts that can easily be verified.

The truth is that SONY is far from stopping production of the 1/2 inch "MULTI" beta format tape VTRs. As for SX, yeah like you said Semi, the [SX] format is nearly 10 years old REMEMBER __ IMX is the NEW MPEG-2 4:2:2 format which also will work with SX . (*not dvcam*) I will make a bet that Sony will stop making 6mm tape based formats before they stop making beta tape formats - beta tape based VTRs that will edit off SX & be compatible with SX.

As for DVcam - it's not dead - but it is slowly going to move over to XDcam disks. (have fun puttin' in a dinky 6mm tape into a XDcam...) XDcam will spell the death of 6mm tape from Sony. That is my own version of hear-say.

Of course the real reason for XDcam is IMX... After all, it's the IMX XDcam camera out with the Sony truck tour. However, it will be years and years and years before Sony discontinues the 1/2 inch multi beta format tape VTRs.

I'm a man that deals with facts, not hear-say. Fact is, Panasonic is slowly phasing out DVCpro-25 in favour of DVCpro50, however DVCpro50 is down compatible with DVCpro 25 just like IMX is down compatible with SX. It is also true that both manufactures are concentrating on non tape based media but to think that tape is becoming "non supported" is ridiculous. Don't forget that the original poster asked specifically about DVCpro & Beta SX. To be putting up hear-say without any kind of conformation doesn't look good on anybody. To post totally wrong statements (as someone else did here ) is silly at the minimum...

Geezer, :D
I will comment on your statement in a later.

semi

12-10-2003, 08:11 AM

Alright Ivan, let's throw down! Now I have to search around and find my "sources" again, which did not come from posts on this board. It might take me awhile, so stay tuned. Sometimes I just mentally file things away without thinking I might need to back them up on paper.

12-10-2003, 09:54 AM

We've found in our shop the SX has some major long term flaws. The mount plate for the mini-fill on top of the camera becomes stripped after a short time, the eight of the brick batteries cause the battery plate to become disconnected from the camera, and the shoe bracket that holds the viewfinder cracks easily upon the slightest impact.

12-10-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Ivan:
Don't hold me to this but I believe they gave the NFL this guarantee -- until the year 2102. I believe they gave the NFL this guarantee -- until the year 2102 You can hold me to this:
Under the Sony NFL contract parts and support for our new SX gear shall be available at least until 2011. That is written into the contract and guaranteed. That's at the very minimum 13 years of betacam sx support. The Sony people did not mention anything about cutting sx out at this moment. The engineering people did set up for imx to fit into the system hassle free. No mention of dvcam.

Peter Johnson

<Peter>

12-10-2003, 10:46 AM

minimum of 8 years. Too early for proper math

Tyna

12-10-2003, 11:43 AM

There is one really nice feature of the 900 series DVCpro50......the dual filter wheel! At first, I disliked it, but now that I've been using it I find that I really like it. I noticed this when Panasonic lent us an 810 when my camera was in the shop last time, it took some time for me to re-adjust my shooting habits to accomodate for the single wheel. Once I got my camera back, I was surprised at how easily I re-adjusted back to the dual wheel.

Also, we have some really nice Canon glass in front of our cameras, which helps a lot. (15x internal focus 16x9 switchable with extender)

I was fortunate enought to use an SX camera for a couple of months before I left my previous station, it was a really nice camera to use. We were still using NP-1's to power it, all I can say is that it sucked the juice out of those things like a dry sponge. Otherwise I really enjoyed using it.

I am interested in learning more about IMX, so far none of the digital formats have really impressed me. I still prefer SP, if I had a choice, I'd still be using it.

D.St.

12-10-2003, 11:52 AM

I shoot an Ikegami HL-45a with a DVCPRO-50 back. The two work together really well, and the pictures from the 45 look every bit as good on DVCPRO as they do on Beta.

When my station made the conversion in 1999, we went with DVCPRO-50 equipment. We were one of the first stations to go with D-50, and some of our equipment had SN's in the single digits!

At first, the equipment sucked. It had all sorts of bugs, and my dockable deck had to be shipped back to Panasonic after one use due to a bad board.

In the early days of DVC at my station, we also edited DVCPRO-50 D-950's to BVW-70's. This made editing a drudgery at best, and an all out nightmare at worst. The editors slipped constantly, and cueing the audio was abysmal. I shot in 50 mode as often as I could (we had only 50 machines) just because the cue track was a little easier to deal with.

About two years later, we began using GVG Vibrint editors. These editors solved many of the issues that I had with DVCPRO, since audio could be trimmed on the timeline and slippage was no longer an issue for the same reason. Plus, with our Newsbyte, the video could be loaded in 4x normal speed.

Bottom line: if you're editing non-linear, go with DVCPRO. Otherwise, try to avoid digital tape until you go NLE.

Just my opinion.

Gil

12-11-2003, 12:03 PM

I hate dockable cameras... too friggin' heavy and ergonomically off-balance

Sportsguy

12-11-2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Gil:
I hate dockable cameras... too friggin' heavy and ergonomically off-balance I don't know about that...

I used to shoot on a BVP-7a mounted to a BVV-5 Beta deck. Sure, it was heavy as hell, but off-balance? No.

Tippster

12-11-2003, 03:45 PM

Ivan,

Ah, trying to hoist me by my own petard, eh? Let me explain/update as necessary.

...all of the Reuters bureaus are switching to PD-150 gear...

Not written by me, but by my man LS. You all know where he lives. the fact that we have stringers/staffers all over the globe that get their gear from us should be sufficient explanation, but the fact remains that Gear is expensive and PD150's are cheaper than DVCPro or Beta packages. BTW - only the "third world" bureaus and stringers are getting the PD150's, our offices in the US, UK, Mexico, Singapore, and Nairobi are still shooting on "real" cameras.

...they want the producers to cut the pieces themselves, for example, so the editors are f*cked...

Different animal altogether. If you've noticed our feed material is rough cut only. The client is supposed to re-edit to suit their needs. You don't need to pay an editor $70,000/year to hack together our feed material, especially (IN the above-mentioned context) when we're going all server-based and it literally involves click-and-drag shuffling of the ingested shots. That, at least, is how management tried to sell it to us. Although I'll miss my colleagues, I see their point.

...There's some nastiness involving camera jobs as well...

Said nastiness has gone the way of the Dodo for now. It had nothing to do with our gear budget. As a matter of fact, our US operation is negotiating with both Sony and Panasonic for their blue laser (Sony) or PCMIA (Panasonic) formats, which will be easier to ingest into the server system (likely to be Avid) and field laptops. We are also switching our World News Service feed to a Pathfire type system within the next year, supposedly, so this will reduce the quality issues that arose from standard conversion/multiple satellite hops/generation loss experienced by our clients. Perhaps when that day is here, said clients will give us some Beta on their acquisition preferences, but currently NO ONE CARES. If you think you don't see any Reuters TV material, think again. Most of the moving images coming from Iraq are ours or AP's (who, BTW, are switching to DVCam from SP in the US) Also, just about all video from Africa shown on CBC & CTV (and ALL the US Networks - ABC gets it from the BBC) is ours. Much of Central & South American Video is the same. Naturally you're not going to see our DC stuff (unless we scooped a story) since all the aforementioned networks have their own DC bureaus. They're standing right next to me at the events.

Back to gear issues...would we prefer to have our Managua stringer et al. shooting on a 3/4-inch chip camera, regardless of format? Of course, but the fiscal reality dictates that the Multitude of stringers we have world-wide cannot be outfitted with such gear, simply from a service issue. We used to have our cameras from south-of-the-border come to our engineer here in DC for servicing. It seemed they spent almost the same amount of time here that they did in the field. having a "disposable" camera in use makes sense. The guys weren't shooting anything when we had their cams in for routine headcleanings and BS tracking errors. Not exactly the way a news agency works.

Gil

12-12-2003, 10:37 AM

Sporty, check, but dockables still suck.

Sportsguy

12-12-2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Gil:
Sporty, check, but dockables still suck. I do agree. From a users standpoint, they're not the greatest. I'll take my one-piece Ike over pretty much anything else out there.

Sorry Ivan. I miss my SX, but my Ike's picture looks awesome.

12-12-2003, 12:41 PM

As an editor my two cents on DVCPRO. It continues to amaze me how stations will buy a format blindly before carefully testing it with the very employees who will have to use it and more importantly make deadline with it. If you have any say, look at XDCAM or Betacam SX. DVCPRO SUCKS!

My station converted from Betacam SP to this. It's been nothing but a headache since then. The only reason we switched was we needed a new digital format and the Panasonic guys undercut Sony by 30% in costs. If you ask anyone here they'll tell you productivity has decreased 30% in response. Our decks eat tapes and the engineers don't know why. The tape tolerances are very slight as they crammed 2 hours worth of it into such a smallcase. If you have the slightest misalingment it jams the deck. Lots of people forget to remove post it notes from the tape where people put notes on it and it jams the decks. Several save reels have broken here for noparticular reason and were only a couple months old. Handle these tapes carefully! A couple have been dropped and there is this little door on the tape. If the door pops up, you might as well throw out the tape because you can't fix it and the machines will not accept it. I'm talking like a 2 milimeter rise from the tape case. You can't shuttle and hear audio. Most of the time the controller won't take edits especially if you mix timecode and control track time between your player and record decks. Sometimes it won't edit even when these counters are matched. So don't buy that excuse from Panasonic too much. There is a constant problem of "servo" errors. Sometimes you just need to shut the deck off and back on and reinsert the tape. Lots of phantom problems like that that you just encounter now and then. There are lots of times where the deck just gets lost and can't preroll correctly. Packages have crashed on our air numerous times. The audio will drop out completely and the video will break up real bad on one side. Lots of times when we take feeds in from the field the tape will take these bizarre "hits" that you can't see on the incoming monitor. It's only later when you're editing from it you'll notice the video freezing now and then and this loud noise wiping out your audio.

geezer

12-12-2003, 01:20 PM

D Street has a point. We are all Avid (ok we have two tape to tape rooms and laptops in the trucks)but news has seven Newscutters and production has three FCP suites so we don't do much tape to tape cutting.
We also have super engineers and that helps a lot.
On those occasions when I do cut in one of the cuts only rooms I have only had slipping problems with well worn tape stock. I have had tapes that would not edit and changing the record tape cleared up the problem, go figure.
We were am MII shop for ten years so I was the last guy to want the Panasonic truck pulling up.
Now I have to say that the stuff works fine. The difference in price over Sony made it possible to add more wireless mics and Sachtler hot pods.
Sometimes you gotta look at the big picture.

Tippster

12-12-2003, 04:00 PM

Most of the time the controller won't take edits especially if you mix timecode and control track time between your player and record decks. Sometimes it won't edit even when these counters are matched. So don't buy that excuse from Panasonic too much. There is a constant problem of "servo" errors. Sometimes you just need to shut the deck off and back on and reinsert the tape. Lots of phantom problems like that that you just encounter now and then. There are lots of times where the deck just gets lost and can't preroll correctly. Packages have crashed on our air numerous times. <Editor>, you just described a client's Beta SP edit suite I'm workin in today. Sorry, but these problems aren't inherent to DVCPro. As a matter of fact, I've never experienced them on either our laptop editors or our in-house linear DVCPro Suites. Maybe we just got lucky, or you got crappy equipment that wasn't installed/connected correctly. The latter is more plausible, IMHO.

Shaky & Blue

12-12-2003, 05:29 PM

Much of what editor described sounds like timecode problems seen from the point of view of someone who doesn't understand how the machines work. DVCPro can be frustrating to edit IF you have broken timecode or even just a little timecode glitch on either tape. Even if you edit in control track (which you shouldn't do anyway) because you know you have timecode breaks, the TC breaks will still screw up your edit. It will affect both picture and sound, and in some cases the deck will actually take the edit, but then break up three or four edits down the tape, making it difficult to realize that the cause of the problem was a timecode glitch several seconds back. You will also get problems if your record deck goes over a TC glitch when it prerolls.

The way to get around this is simple: don't break the timecode. Any tape you edit to should contain clean, continuous timecode. All the cameras should be set to shoot continuous timecode in Rec-run mode as well.

When you hard roll or soft roll on a tape to take a feed, make sure that you DON'T use that tape as an edit tape, even if you're soft rolling to keep the timecode "continuous." It looks continuous, but it isn't. Wherever you stop the tape, there will be a glitch in the timecode, even though the numbers match up on each side of it. If you're taking the feed on one tape and dubbing it to a different tape for archiving, make sure that you roll for a full five seconds before the other guy rolls his feed; otherwise, when you dub the material over, your feed tape will roll over that timecode break in the preroll and screw up the edit.

As mentioned, you should edit with both machines in timecode whenever possible. When editing in control track the edit points will slip, but when editing in TC they shouldn't. If your machines slip when editing in TC, it is usually a problem with your edit controller, not your decks.

I'm guessing that many, if not most of the problems editor is having are caused by sloppy standard practices among his shop's editors leading to broken timecode. The decks are not as forgiving as SP was, so those bad habits that everyone got used to with SP are causing them problems now. If you'll step back and analyze what YOU are doing to contribute to the problem, you can fix most of it. (Like NOT putting post-it notes on the tapes in the first place, but on the cases instead--why do so many shops have problems figuring that out?)

Gil

12-13-2003, 11:43 PM

Dockables, still, and will always suck.

Tippster

12-14-2003, 09:43 AM

Hey, Gil - how do you feel about dockable cameras? ;)

Gil

12-15-2003, 10:56 PM

Hey Tippster, dockable cameras seriously, incredibly, deleriously, exponentially, and just plain hideously, suck penguin weeney.

This my definitive statement on the matter... there are no other superlatives.... dig?

semi

12-16-2003, 09:02 AM

Alright, Ivan, I must concede for now, that SX is not dead...You are right, I did post without having facts in place. So for now, I'll go with you and live with the lumps you handed out(even though I'm SURE I saw SX was being phased out, but I must be way WAY out there..)

At any rate, I re-read my post and you're also right, I never really answered the posters question, so here goes...

We use 5 DVC pro 700 cameras, one 810, and 3 old betacam dockables. Hopefully in the spring we will complete the DVC changeover, 7 years after the initial purchase of 4 cams and playback decks.

Generally we have been happy with the performance of the cameras, and they have held up well in the cold Canadian winters. There has been a minimum of problems with the cameras failing. I have had the most problem with my viewfinder, actually. I have had various wires break and a circuit board fail. And the editors have complained about the decks but I think whatever problems they encountered are solved or they just live with.

If you go DVC, I would say don't be afraid. There is a lot of good in them, really. I didn't choose DVC Pro, It chose me. So I pound with the hammer I am given, and so far, it's not a bad hammer. I could do a lot worse, although I will say that absolutely everyone else in this market uses SX, and has nonlinear editing. We use a DVC/Betacam mix with cuts-only editing to oxide betacam.

Hope it helps, and hope you get along well with whatever format you are handed. Be glad it's not a handycam.

Best of luck and kindest regards,

Semi

geezer

12-17-2003, 12:14 PM

I know a guy who spent two long years trying to keep two Hawkeyes going.
Want to talk pain? That was god knows how long ago and he is still spiriually scarred.
Panasonic made something that I think was called the M product. MII was an IMPROVED version of it.

<n3ews>

12-17-2003, 01:21 PM

Go with DVCPro. You simply can't go wrong. I use a Panasonic 610 and it shoots beautiful pics. I came from an SX station and all I can say is that the editing SUCKED. The laptops were big and bulky and the non-linear machines were not user friendly...the ones we had would only do cuts....no dissolves. That was all Sony could do? However that could have been updated by now. That was 2 years ago.

imported_blank

12-18-2003, 02:18 AM

SEMI
I know SX will be discontinued one day. I am just bugged that people since 1998 have been posting on b-roll "SX discontinued" without showing a single thread of evidence.

Here is some info I have. Do remember, when I mention "the Sony guy" the info is just from a private conversation however much of the writing is available to the public.

Not long ago I spoke to a Sony guy and he said that a big chunk of Asia is on SX and this year (2003) more Asian based networked enterprises are converting to SX.

The Sony guy said that if and when XDcam takes off - they "MAY" stop manufacturing SX. He said they expect this to eventually happen. He also said that no company using SX will be left out in the cold. He said they will supply parts and even "WHOLE UNITS" for years to come. Just like they STILL are doing with certain SP units. (after all these years)

He said the IMX decks (they play and edit off SX tapes) will keep being manufactured for decades!!!! Just like SX decks replaced SP decks he said eventually IMX decks may replace SX decks. I know for a fact that many shops replaced aging SP decks with SX - In Canada and in the US. Even shops that didn't buy into SX cameras. Just to keep their SP archives playable (on sx)

Do not be afraid of SX becoming obsolete!!! The NFL (this year) spend 25 or so million on SX with a written guarantee to have SX parts and support (AND WHOLE UNITS AVAILABLE) at minimum for a decade. The Sony guy said that this year was the best year of international SX sales in three years. That's YEARS after CNN, CBS & CBC and most of CTV already converted to SX.

Semi did you know this about your network?
CanWest in New Zealand (owned by the same Canadian folks that own the very network YOU (semi) shoot for "GLOBAL" went SX in New Zealand. I believe Australia is big on SX. cameragod said that NZ went big on SX this year --

Now a bit of gloating (forgive me Semi :D )

SEMI WROTE:
I will say that absolutely everyone else in this market [Edmonton] uses SX.

Hey Semi, have you checked out the multi million dollar Edmonton LTA facilities? They own a bunch of specialty channels (including court tv and clt) They shoot on SX and post on broadcast avids and broadcast fcp, right? I take it CBC and CTV in Edmonton are both on SX? Other afils?

Same thing across the country. Many (if not most) specialty channels out of Winnipeg, Toronto and Vancouver use SX. Major off air afils across the nation use SX.

My point is that even if SX dies tomorrow - Sony will "NOT" abandon our nation. It would be nuts for Sony to hand Canada over to Panasonic.

BTW SEMI, do you know if GLOBAL has any nationwide plans regarding formats????
--------------------

TIPP

A class reply from a classy guy. (after I rattled your goat)

1) Thanks for clearing up the 'EDITING" process. I thought that Reuters clients may want cut pieces, not just rough cuts. I hate to say it but - for the rough cuts I also agree with the policy. However I also feel saddened for your colleagues.

2) ) YOU WROTE:
If you think you don't see any Reuters TV material, think again. Most of the moving images coming from Iraq are ours or AP's. ...Also, just about all video from Africa shown on CBC & CTV is ours.

Naturally you're not going to see our DC stuff (unless we scooped a story) since all the aforementioned networks have their own DC bureaus. They're standing right next to me at the events.

I need to make this point clear. As you will see, I mentioned that I see Reuters feeds from the third world but NOT from Washington. What I said is that a lot of the third world Reuters stuff is crap I also wrote that I don't see YOUR DC stuff - I wrote that I believe your DC stuff is good, just like your reputation.

I WROTE THIS BEFORE
This knock down isn't pointed at you Tipp. ...Reuters is losing more credibility. From time to time I will see a Reuters feed on one of the "trusted" news channels. ...(courtesy of Reuters). ...Reuters" claims 60 people have died, meanwhile all the other nets will "confirm" that only six people have died. Personally, I don't trust any over seas report comin' from a Reuters feed. Personally, lot's of the over seas Reuters feeds look like a three week handycam toting person was responsible for the shoot and STORY INFO.

Again Tipp, this isn't a knock down against you or your abilities. Your good reputation speaks for itself and I'm sure that things in Washington ("""FOR NOW""") aren't handled in the same manner as things in the Balkies may be. I have never seen a Washington Reuters feed as all the nets I watch (including CBC CTV) have their own cameras in DC.

BTW Tipp, The Canadian NETS do have BETACAMS in Iraq, it's just the first response stuff they buy...

-----------------
I will get back to Geezer's claim - eventually, I promise...

semi

12-18-2003, 08:44 AM

Ivan:

As a matter of fact I am VERY aware TV3 New Zealand and Network 10 in Australia, as well as the Irish TV component of Global Television, uses SX for news, and Digibeta for EFP. Some time ago I did some digging, just to find out what other company owned stations were using. This was because there were rumors of an upgrade( that we're still waiting for), and I wanted to know we weren't going to be cheated. Winnipeg uses SX, and we're on a Mish-Mash!

It's true SX has a strong hold in many areas, so the original poster shouldn't worry about the format or support. You made some valid arguments about that. My point was and is SX is mature, and tape-based, so if the opportunity for tapeless comes along that would be the way to go.

But, as we well know decisions like that are way out of our hands. To answer your query about Global going with one format across the country, I say what a great Idea, one we all want to see, but unlikely. I don't think it's in the plans as the money is tight right now, as you know. Even if there was tons of money, I still don't think it would happen. Vancouver is SP, Saskatoon and Regina DVC Pro, Toronto is DVCam, Calgary and us a mix...and they all get the job done. Why spend money when the job is getting done?

I have to ask what you mean by "Edmonton LTA". Right behind us is the Movie Central Specialty Channel building, but I'm pretty sure they are Digi beta. The film transfer lab and post house next to us, I think is a mix of formats but I also think Digibeta rules there also.

And finally, yes, all the stations but us are SX. CBC uses DNW-9W's (I'm sure they're the same across the country), while CTV and A-Channel use DNW-7's. As for post houses or other facilities, I couldn't say.

As usual, a very active and interesting discussion on formats.

Tyna

12-18-2003, 11:38 AM

Here's what I know about who's shooting on what in Toronto:

SX: CTV and CBC
DVCAM: Global
DVCPro50: Report On Business Television

I have seen Leafs TV with DVCpro, they may be shooting on 25, not 50. I am not entirely sure what everyone else is shooting on, but I do know that I have seen a lot of SP decks in scrums.

imported_blank

12-18-2003, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Tyna:
Here's what I know about who's shooting on what in Toronto: Ahem! Tyna, do you know what the Toronto based CHUM specialty channels use? (muchmusic, space etc)

Eh! Thanks for the Edmonton and Toronto CTV info. Any top ten CTV markets not on SX???? I know Montreal CTV is SX for sure. Me thinks ALL CTV majors are SX now :D .... Anyone know?

---------------------------------------
Originally posted by Semi:
I have to ask what you mean by "Edmonton LTAYou probably recognize them as
"Learning & Skills Television of Alberta Limited"

I believe Moses out of T.O. owns a good chunk of LTA.
click here for LTA corporate profile (http://www.accesslearning.com/corporate.cfm)
"""LTA's multi-million dollar production and distribution facilities in Edmonton are completely digital, both in field shooting (SX format) and editing (AVID, Media 100 and Final Cut Pro for video; ProTools for audio). Since SX is an MPEG-encoding format, it supports and anticipates MPEG transmission, which is the coming standard in the near future."""

Originally posted by Semi:
Right behind us is the Movie Central Specialty Channel building, but I'm pretty sure they are Digi betaOh yeah, I remember when they were still SUPER CHANNEL. They used to run some wicked ROCK SHOWS. Did you see the " YES" 9012 concert (1984) shot in Edmonton? Rock on!

Originally posted by Semi:
Vancouver [GLOBAL] is SP. ... they all get the job done. Why spend money when the job is getting done? Uhhhm yeah, I really shouldn't talk in public but... I don't think they had any major cam or deck maintenance done since before GLOBAL forced the take over of BCTV back in 2001. All kinds of technical problems showing up on air - especially when you compare CTV and CBC shooting on newer SX :D gear.

Pretty sad when you consider that the BCTV NEWSHOUR on GLOBAL is a top ten rated program. (due to previous ownership and previous CTV affiliation - sorry but true...

http://www.canwestmediasales.com/research/tv/FL03MP_CHAN.xls

Anyway I'm glad they have betacam :D , even a few BVW-300s still in service!! 100 times better then brand new handycams - for sure!!!
.
TRUE GLOBAL STORY,
One of the top veteran shooters in Vancouver (maybe nationwide) was in a boat with his 400a when the boat capsized. They fished out the betacam and even played the tape over the air!!! (BluesDaddy, how do you like them apples???)

Oh yeah Semi, here is one of those Edmonton based freelance productions shooting on SP but posting on SX and Avid.
http://www.polarbear.ab.ca/polartv/index.html